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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 15:15:32 GMT
So how do we have this fantastic competition on all these imaginary pubs which don't exist yet because the landlords aren't convinced the game is worthy enough for them to get a table put in ? Sounds like a Catch 22 situation. I'm afraid that in the real world in which I live, a nice pub with a keen landlord acquires a table, but because it's too far out in the sticks it doesn't take enough revenue to justify its existence and before bar billiards has had a chance to take off the table gets chucked out as a result. One new competition no matter on how grand a scale isn't going to make a happen'orth of difference.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 15:19:15 GMT
So how do we have this fantastic competition on all these imaginary pubs which don't exist yet because the landlords aren't convinced the game is worthy enough for them to get a table put in ? Sounds like a Catch 22 situation. I'm afraid that in the real world in which I live, a nice pub with a keen landlord acquires a table, but because it's too far out in the sticks it doesn't take enough revenue to justify its existence and before bar billiards has had a chance to take off the table gets chucked out as a result. One new competition no matter on how grand a scale isn't going to make a happen'orth of difference. Tommo you have to start small, there are pubs already with tables in. When the significance of the competition gets to the landlords then maybe! Also it will help pubs with 1 team have 2!
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Post by Owners' Account on Nov 20, 2006 15:27:07 GMT
Of course it's not, but my point is pubs need a reason to have a Bar Billiards table or they won;t have one. So what reason are we giving them at the moment
"Oh go on, we really need more tables in pubs"
If I was a landlord, I would want a reason to have a table in my pub. Give me a team and I'd put a table in.
Of course it can be difficult, and it;s hard to attract new players without new tables, but if you take Brighton and Worthing for example, the number of tables we have justifies the number of players we have. You want more tables, you are going to have to find more players who want to play, simple as that. Just having a new tables would help, but is not going to make people straight away want to play.
But if you find people who want to play, then there is a reason for more tables.
How do you get more players playing? Well you have to raise the profile of our game.
Which brings me back straight to the point of what are we doing to raise the profile of our game?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 15:56:56 GMT
if you take Brighton and Worthing for example, the number of tables we have justifies the number of players we have. By taking Brighton and Worthing as an example, you have identified the power base of Sussex. Of course there's a lot of interest centred round those leagues. And I'm willing to bet that, if you wanted to start off a money competition in Sussex, 90% of the contingent of players would come from those Leagues, or play at least one night a week in one or other of them. You'll get very little interest from elsewhere in Sussex, because the minor leagues have had very little in the way of encouragement in recent years.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 15:57:18 GMT
This is mostly from the Brighton point of view, and I think I may have said this before, but I think you have to start at the bottom.
It's no use trying to get people to start playing the game from new if they are going to start by watching somebody putting 15k breaks against them. No encouragement there.
The game needs to attract younger players and get them to play against lower a standard. The Brighton Lower Division is good from this point of view. Out the 5 teams there are 2 or 3 who should really be 1st Division players, and another 5 or 6 who are almost at that level. This level is good for beginers but with only 10? pubs supplying all the teams we also need more venues.
There are pubs in Brighton and Hove with tables but no teams. We need to go in these places, play the tables and hope the locals watch and get interested in making a team.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 16:02:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 16:06:20 GMT
The game needs to attract younger players and get them to play against lower a standard. The Brighton Lower Division is good from this point of view. This level is good for beginers but with only 10? pubs supplying all the teams we also need more venues. There are pubs in Brighton and Hove with tables but no teams. We need to go in these places, play the tables and hope the locals watch and get interested in making a team. A practical idea at last !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 16:38:31 GMT
Tommo, the nail in the coffin still could be!
It isn't yet settled, so I am all for ideas being put into poractise to get this pub game to be a little bit more!
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Post by petem on Nov 20, 2006 16:42:53 GMT
This is in reply to Glenns post of 3.27 It will always be a case of which comes first (chicken and egg syndrome),tables or players
I have persuaded my son to partner me in the Worthing Doubles this year and I got him registered,he had never played before up until about a month ago.He has picked up the fundamentals quite quickly. Will he carry on playing after the comp?,probably not.We already have 7 players fighting for 5 places and 2 teams already at the Elms. Could the landlord put another table in?. I dont think there would be enough interest to make up another team that would not be getting thrashed every week.No matter how enthusiastic you are ,if you are getting hammered week after week it soon wanes After going to the Downview for the Masters on Saturday I thought why are they not running 2 or 3 teams in the local leagues?.They have enough room,they have not even got a team!
In reply to regg3y An excellent idea.I think I have bitten off a bit too much this year by coming straight into the Worthing Premier and would relish the chance to play a couple of seasons at a lower level to re acclimatise myself
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Post by davejones on Nov 20, 2006 17:41:02 GMT
After going to the Downview for the Masters on Saturday I thought why are they not running 2 or 3 teams in the local leagues?.They have enough room,they have not even got a team! In answer to petem the downview used to have a team a couple of years ago further back from that 2 teams. But with a couple of players giving up the game they didn't have enough players to form a team and therefore they merged with your A team. The table is still in the other bar from the masters, and is still played occasionally.
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Post by petem on Nov 20, 2006 18:12:57 GMT
Thanks Dave I have lived in worthing for over 20 years and that is the first time I have ever been in the Downview
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 19:01:32 GMT
Time to blow the discussion wide open: Glenn's new idea is in danger of suffering the same fate as most fledgling schemes - kicked around in a discussion and then conveniently forgotten about because no-one wants to take on any responsibility for getting it off the ground. Anyone who is really interested in doing something positive to "save the game" think on this and then try and tell me I'm on the wrong track :
It strikes me that our game would benefit from a Working Party being set up, dedicated to raising the profile of the game. It could be tasked with the following : - Gaining publicity and TV Coverage; - canvassing major breweries for sponsorship, and for a softening of their attitude towards allowing bar billiards to be installed in hostelries under their control; - re-introduction of the BIOC Open on English soil, to be re-named if necessary as the British Open or the European Open; - to obtain a major sponsor as well as TV coverage for the above event; - to work towards securing the future of All-England and County competitions by recommending a practical solution regarding matchplay tables; - to promote county 'Opens', ensuring adequate publicity and encouraging ALL counties to stage one; - to secure general recognition for a National Ranking System and to publish a standard set of playing rules; - where possible, to promote play outside of the current sphere of the bar billiards world, encouraging any known outposts who might with a little guidance be willing to take up the game; - to actively encourage new players, young and old, and even the return of former players.
As regards National Rankings, I feel it is now the time to expand the list from 150 players or thereabouts to anything up to 500. This may sound ambitious, but the way to achieve it is to incorporate the Inter-Area and the Inter-League performances into the rankings. Inter-Area is very competitive and features the best players from the Northern Counties, plus Portsmouth (Hants). Likewise, the Sussex-run Inter-League has in recent years been extended to include Redhill (Surrey) and Tunbridge Wells (Kent) into its fold. So as not to involve the National RP Co-ordinator in too much extra work,separate Northern Counties and Southern Counties Ranking Officers could be appointed for the express purpose of providing this extra input. Points should be weighted in favour of existing Team events on a National level and points from 'Opens' could be accrued from one round earlier than at present.
There.......I've tried to cover everything. Much of it has already received discussion on the Forum and yet there are still so many loose ends to be tied up - the most obvious one being KT's request to re-introduce the BIOC (which people seem to have conveniently forgotten). Time for fingers to be pulled out !
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Post by bigtj on Nov 20, 2006 19:51:53 GMT
Tommo opens up the idea for a Working Party, and this is an excellent idea. If we are going to raise the profile and get ideas off the ground it does mean somebody taking the bull by the horns and offering to set up this party, and others to show support by voluntering to join the lead and become part of this working party. Ideally someone with Glenns` passion for raising the profile and then a mix of new and old players so that we get a total viewpoint of how we are going to attack the problem of the game not dying. I am sure if somebody is brave enough to say they will lead others will then come on board.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 20:04:02 GMT
Thanks Tony,
Obvious candidates are : Sav, Glenn, SirKT, Fazza and Nigel. And as a contact 'oop north', outside our realm but with potential for useful input - Martin Pellett formerly of Surrey but now living in Halifax.
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Post by Owners' Account on Nov 20, 2006 21:16:15 GMT
Tommo has some excerlent ideas.
One thing we need to remember guys... right now we are the working party. Us lot right here, this is where it starts, but we need to move the game into gear and actually go out and do it......
If anyone is serious about doing it, I will gladly make a new forum called "Bar Billiards Working Party" all ideas and work can easally be co-ordinated from there.
But like I said, people have to step up......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 21:35:31 GMT
Well, I'm always willing to offer food for thought.
Like your idea of setting up a special board for discussion, Glen, perhaps you could start it off with my suggestions, any we don't like we can say why and discard, I won't be offended.
Looking forward to when I retire, I may then be able to offer help outside of the Forum of a more practical nature.
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Post by fazza on Nov 21, 2006 8:07:31 GMT
- to promote county 'Opens', ensuring adequate publicity and encouraging ALL counties to stage one; As regards National Rankings, I feel it is now the time to expand the list from 150 players or thereabouts to anything up to 500. This may sound ambitious, but the way to achieve it is to incorporate the Inter-Area and the Inter-League performances into the rankings. Inter-Area is very competitive and features the best players from the Northern Counties, plus Portsmouth (Hants). I will always distribute entry forms for any Open to all BBQ subscribers IF they are sent to me in plenty of time to be issued with the BBQ. Other than that it is up to the Open organisers concerned to promote their event. Don't forget that some always limit the number of entries. Point of order on the rankings Clive: There are already well over 300 in the rankings, and this is likely to increase with all these extra events. I will oppose including Inter-Area events in the system because there is no exact equivalent in the south. If players really wanted to be included in the rankings, they would enter the occasional National event. You are again over-emphasising their importance, you naughty boy! Finally, you must realise that I am only just keeping my head above water with my existing commitments, and will not wish to get involved in any working party at this time. That, in itself, will allow others to come forward perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 9:08:11 GMT
Point of order on the rankings Clive: There are already well over 300 in the rankings, and this is likely to increase with all these extra events. I will oppose including Inter-Area events in the system because there is no exact equivalent in the south. If players really wanted to be included in the rankings, they would enter the occasional National event. You are again over-emphasising their importance, you naughty boy! Pete, this hasn't been discussed yet and is only an idea in its infancy. I have long been considering a way that rankings can be "cascaded" down to below County level. A sort of two-tier system might be possible, using the North and South 'Intermediary' competitions as a means of earning loads of half-points. This could then remove the need for Counties to have their own independent rankings, which are often in conflict with your 'main' list. Let's face it, it's so difficult to get on your ladder, loads of very accomplished players have to walk over hot coals just to earn one measly point ! ;)
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 11:27:16 GMT
Without a doubt the best point made in this forums history........ Thank you very much ;D
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 11:36:35 GMT
I am also willing to help out where i can and have had some ideas myself about getting sponsorship for a new event.... The Great Britain Open - i think thats about the best idea to replace the BIOC which Jersey do not seem to want to let go of.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 12:15:36 GMT
Sorry to be a pedant, but you're overlooking the fact that, by definition, Great Britain is only the landmass of England, Wales and Scotland, and doesn't include Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
We do not wish to be thus restrictive, hence it should be called either the British Open or the European Open, and Jersey can then hold on to BIOC and the World without affecting the situation.
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 12:23:31 GMT
Sorry to be a pedant, but you're overlooking the fact that, by definition, Great Britain is only the landmass of England, Wales and Scotland, and doesn't include Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. We do not wish to be thus restrictive, hence it should be called either the British Open or the European Open, and Jersey can then hold on to BIOC and the World without affecting the situation. But is that not the competition we are actually after ? I know this is going over old ground again, but Jersey cannot hold both the titles they have as one competition anyway ! So i think they should be forced to relinquish one of the titles.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 12:45:07 GMT
And how, pray, do we achieve that ? Using force ? Herr Flick spent his life suppressing peasants, seducing Helga, the German town Commandant's assistant, and vainly trying to get his hands on the original of the painting 'The Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies' by Van Klomp. You zink zes peasants should be surpressed, ja ?
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 14:05:02 GMT
Has anyone actually approaced the Jersey BBA and asked them about it ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 14:21:27 GMT
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 15:28:55 GMT
Thanks Tommo. Sean, if you are reading this, have you found out when the "lease" expires on the name for the BIOC ?
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Post by Owners' Account on Nov 21, 2006 17:24:43 GMT
So if I win the World Championships, can I have 20 pts for winning that, and another 20 for winning the BIOC as well? Do I get two trophy's?
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Post by fazza on Nov 22, 2006 8:23:07 GMT
IF Glenn IF
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Post by milhouse on Nov 22, 2006 12:32:03 GMT
So if I win the World Championships, can I have 20 pts for winning that, and another 20 for winning the BIOC as well? Do I get two trophy's? Good point. But more importantly, if someone from France entered and knocked you out, would you still be in the tournament for the BIOC as the French person would not be able to play in that tournament ????? :-/
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Post by Mark James on Nov 22, 2006 15:19:51 GMT
Gentlemen, sorry to butt in on this protracted discussion about what you're going to call your new event, but I hope you'll forgive me if I point out that you don't seem to have quite grasped the concept of the word "Open" in a tournament name.
You don't have to come from the place in the title in order to be eligible to enter, that's why they're called "Open".
Hence, for example, the US Open tennis or golf championships include players from outside of USA.
In fact, I can recall at least one player in the BIOC Jersey some years ago who was registered as a French entrant. His name was something like Frank Deffains (this may not be remembered perfectly, but it's close).
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