|
|
Post by JT on Nov 19, 2012 17:48:14 GMT
Last week during a match in the Billingshurst League the following happened
Whilst taking the break a player failed to use the red ball, the scorer called it a foul shot and the break was lost
I was under the impression that this was correct, although if I was scoring I would have warned the player before he took his shot
However Rule 26 of the SCBBA does not state that this is a foul shot, but Rule 14 states that the red must be spotted if it is available
So was the scorer correct? or should the player have been able to continue the break, but any score from this shot would have been discounted
If the scorer was correct, then rule 26 should be annotated to include the above scenario
Many Thanks
John Tidy
Secretary
BHBBL
|
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 19, 2012 18:20:04 GMT
AEBBA Rule 27 covers this point specifically....
L). Not using the red ball, when available, at the red ball spot, at the break shot.
At present, the SCBBA Rules have not caught up with the above rule as nobody had noticed that this rule had been introduced and therefore nobody has proposed that it should be accepted at the SCBBA AGM.
That also applies to the following AEBBA Rules that have also been added since the last time that SCBBA Rules were updated:-
AEBBA Rules of Play 27
M). Causing a ball resting on the lip of a hole to drop by deliberately disturbing the table. Players should take
their hands off the table as soon as the ball is struck. (under discussion)
N) Playing the break shot with either ball not on its spot. It is not a foul under this rule if the ball falls off the
spot as the player is in the act of striking. Any other penalty incurred will count.
O) If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top cushion and
does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses his break. (this does not apply to the last ball of the game).
Although technically not covered by SCBBA Rules at present, my view would be that the scorer was correct to call it as a Foul Shot as it broke SCBBA Rules of Play 14 anyway. ;D
I will be proposing that these rules are adopted by SCBBA at the next AGM to bring the rules in line with AEBBA.
|
|
|
|
Post by Q on Nov 19, 2012 18:20:48 GMT
As far as I'm aware the requirement to use the red ball was dropped years ago (AEBBA), certain 4 pin rules are different.
The only requirement is to use the red from the break position.
So the scorer was wrong, no foul was committed and the break should have continued.
|
|
|
|
Post by Q on Nov 19, 2012 18:23:21 GMT
AEBBA Rule 27 covers this point specifically.... L). Not using the red ball, when available, at the red ball spot, at the break shot.I would disagree Dave, it specifically states "at the break shot" |
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 19, 2012 18:24:22 GMT
Whilst taking the break a player failed to use the red ball, the scorer called it a foul shot and the break was lost Errr.... it looks to me as if he was playing the break shot Q. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Q on Nov 19, 2012 18:27:16 GMT
Whilst taking the break a player failed to use the red ball, the scorer called it a foul shot and the break was lost Errr.... it looks to me as if he was playing the break shot Q. ;D Ah..... need to get my glasses checked :o I didn't read that line, I also didn't think ANYONE would consider taking a break shot WITHOUT using the red (if available, presuming the bar hadn't dropped) with the execption of a certain player during a certain speed break competition :-X ;D Humble apologies, scorer was correct, foul & loss of break |
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 19, 2012 18:40:40 GMT
Errr.... it looks to me as if he was playing the break shot Q. ;D Ah..... need to get my glasses checked :o I didn't read that line, I also didn't think ANYONE would consider taking a break shot WITHOUT using the red (if available, presuming the bar hadn't dropped) with the execption of a certain player during a certain speed break competition :-X ;D Humble apologies, scorer was correct, foul & loss of break No problem, I had to read it a couple of times to start with because I couldn't understand why someone would consider taking the break shot without using the red ball.... although I did get called for a foul shot a few years ago when the red got stuck in a table and came out after I had played a break shot using the white ball! :o I wasn't  about that at the time but luckily it didn't affect the result of the game.... ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 18:45:17 GMT
BBW - Many years ago when great efforts were made to standardize rules, the principle was agreed that SCBBA adopted AEBBA playing rules en bloc. And every time a new AEBBA playing rule was passed, this would be adopted automatically as a formality.
If the SCBBA have been lax in updating their publication of the playing rules, that's neither here nor there. That in itself can't be taken as an opportunity not to apply the letter of the law as regards application of an AEBBA playing rule that has already taken effect.
Indeed, I would draw your attention to AEBBA Rule 17) thus,
17). Member counties agree by their affiliation to abide by the association’s rules.
Ergo, the AEBBA Rule is the overriding factor and applies without the need for sanction at the SCBBA AGM. No harm in pointing out its existence, though. ;)
|
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 20, 2012 0:12:23 GMT
BBW - Many years ago when great efforts were made to standardize rules, the principle was agreed that SCBBA adopted AEBBA playing rules en bloc. And every time a new AEBBA playing rule was passed, this would be adopted automatically as a formality. If the SCBBA have been lax in updating their publication of the playing rules, that's neither here nor there. That in itself can't be taken as an opportunity not to apply the letter of the law as regards application of an AEBBA playing rule that has already taken effect. Indeed, I would draw your attention to AEBBA Rule 17) thus, 17). Member counties agree by their affiliation to abide by the association’s rules.Ergo, the AEBBA Rule is the overriding factor and applies without the need for sanction at the SCBBA AGM. No harm in pointing out its existence, though. ;) I am not disagreeing with you Tommo but this is something that you would need to take up with the SCBBA Committee and Secretary.... there is nothing that I can see in the SCBBA Rules about adopting AEBBA Rules en bloc and we all know that some Leagues and Associations have some minor amendments to AEBBA Rules for their own competitions. However there is the following in SCBBA rules... 7. Any amendments to the rules of the above Association shall be submitted in writing to the Hon. Secretary not less than 14 days prior to the Annual General Meeting. As I stated above, I think that the scorer was correct in calling it as a foul.... which is what is shown in the AEBBA Rules so I actually agree with you on this subject.... however IMHO, I am not in a position to update or change rules on the SCBBA Website without the Rules being proposed and adopted at an AGM unless I am instructed to the contrary by SCBBA Committee. :-/ |
|
|
|
Post by bobhall on Nov 20, 2012 0:17:00 GMT
This also happened in jersey i tried to warn the player as was a close game and i was spectating but he felt that he would try and leave the red till last to gain the 400 and win the game but this failed as break was lost due to the foul
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 10:52:09 GMT
I am not disagreeing with you Tommo but this is something that you would need to take up with the SCBBA Committee and Secretary.... there is nothing that I can see in the SCBBA Rules about adopting AEBBA Rules en bloc and we all know that some Leagues and Associations have some minor amendments to AEBBA Rules for their own competitions. However there is the following in SCBBA rules... 7. Any amendments to the rules of the above Association shall be submitted in writing to the Hon. Secretary not less than 14 days prior to the Annual General Meeting. As I stated above, I think that the scorer was correct in calling it as a foul.... which is what is shown in the AEBBA Rules so I actually agree with you on this subject.... however IMHO, I am not in a position to update or change rules on the SCBBA Website without the Rules being proposed and adopted at an AGM unless I am instructed to the contrary by SCBBA Committee. :-/ You ARE disagreeing with me, Dave, and of course that's your prerogative. The principle is a simple one........AEBBA Playing Rules take effect immediately they're passed. Counties subscribe to this situation purely by dint of their affiliation to the AEBBA. It is mischievous to suggest that Leagues don't need to have any awareness of new Playing Rules until such time as the County get round to approving them - which could be years later! I don't know whose job it would be to update the SCBBA set, which at the moment show 2010 as the latest Issue. But it needs doing, and without the need for me to make myself unpopular by telling anyone on the SCBBA Committee what their job is! |
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 20, 2012 11:18:43 GMT
You ARE disagreeing with me, Dave, and of course that's your prerogative. The principle is a simple one........AEBBA Playing Rules take effect immediately they're passed. Counties subscribe to this situation purely by dint of their affiliation to the AEBBA. It is mischievous to suggest that Leagues don't need to have any awareness of new Playing Rules until such time as the County get round to approving them - which could be years later! I don't know whose job it would be to update the SCBBA set, which at the moment show 2010 as the latest Issue. But it needs doing, and without the need for me to make myself unpopular by telling anyone on the SCBBA Committee what their job is! Having looked at the minutes of the AEBBA AGM's for the last 4 years (2008-2011 inclusive) that are shown on the AEBBA Website, I can see no mention of the rules in question being added during this period.... so I can only assume that they were existing Rules before the last time that the SCBBA Rules were updated in 2010. I do not know why these Rules were not included in that update.... or even if they were excluded for a particular reason.... as that was before I took over maintaining the Sussex Website and I was not really involved with SCBBA matters before that but I think that you are quite right to say that they SHOULD be included within the SCBBA Rules and I will be proposing that they are added at the next Sussex AGM together with anything else that has not been included. Having said that, I do not think that any rules should be added without the approval of an AGM (or EGM if necessary) and it is surely normal practice for both SCBBA and affiliated Leagues to play "catch-up" after Rules have been amended or changed by the AEBBA? I certainly would not be prepared to update or amend the Rules on the Sussex Website without the approval of SCBBA Committee or AGM. So perhaps you would like to point this out the SCBBA Committee (even if it makes you unpopular) since you obviously have very strong views on this.... which I don't disagree with at all. ;D Alternatively, perhaps the Leagues involved should simply change their Rules to state that they will abide by the AEBBA Rules rather than by SCBBA Rules since I believe all Leagues are now classed as Associations of the AEBBA (they are all allowed a vote at the AEBBA AGM) and that would immediately resolve the problem of the County Rules catching up with AEBBA? ::) (I now await the rather obvious reply that the Leagues would have to hold an EGM to change their Rules.... exactly the same as the County have to! :P) PS. I noticed that this incident happened in Billingshurst League.... but having looked on the Billingshurst Website I couldn't see a copy of the League Rules on there at all.... :o ....but perhaps I was just looking in the wrong place? ::) |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 12:02:43 GMT
Alternatively, perhaps the Leagues involved should simply change their Rules to state that they will abide by the AEBBA Rules rather than by SCBBA Rules since I believe all Leagues are now classed as Associations of the AEBBA (they are all allowed a vote at the AEBBA AGM) and that would immediately resolve the problem of the County Rules catching up with AEBBA? ::) As you know me by now, Dave, I have no desire to change the bar billiards universe, I am getting ready to give up, after all, but what I can do is give an insight into how unfortunate situations have arisen. For the case in point, I can remember attending an AGM (in the early days of the AEBBA's formation) accompanying Charlie Cordery, the then-SCBBA Secretary. At the time Sussex had a separate set of Playing Rules which were in direct conflict with those issued by AEBBA. All counties present agreed the principle of one set of playing Rules. Charles then did a lot of work disentangling Sussex's playing rules away from the administrative rules (they were all jumbled up together) and at the ensuing County AGM proposed the deletion of the entire set of SCBBA playing rules and replacing them with AEBBA playing rules. I remember this well as I was Horsham Secretary at the time and we had a similar problem of conflict between SCBBA Playing rules and our own Horsham ones (playing rules jumbled in amongst administrative ones !) I did a similar job to Charlie and at the ensuing AGM we got ours deleted and replaced with the wording "ALL PLAYING RULES AS PER S.C.B.B.A" Where it then went wrong is that instead of SCBBA doing similar, and deleting their set and putting "ALL PLAYING RULES AS PER A.E.B.B.A." they incorporated them all into the SCBBA set Verbatim, thus condemning themselves forever to the problem of keeping up with resultant changes. Why did this have to be the case ? Because, in those days there was very little in the way of communication from the AEBBA level downwards. As far as the Sussex leagues were concerned, the AEBBA weren't the brilliant oracle they are now - they just consisted of three people who met up maybe once or twice a year and we therefore took our lead and guidance from the SCBBA. Hence the need for the inclusion of the Playing Rules (otherwise we wouldn't know about them !) As you have hinted in the part-quote above, there is a simple way round things. Do now what we couldn't do then, ie at the next SCBBA AGM get someone to propose deleting the lot and inserting "ALL PLAYING RULES AS PER A.E.B.B.A." Then it's "job done". ;) |
|
enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
|
Post by enzo on Nov 20, 2012 12:15:13 GMT
I will be proposing that these rules are adopted by SCBBA at the next AGM to bring the rules in line with AEBBA. I'm glad you are Dave, I fear I would be swatted out the court. :) |
|
|
|
Post by JB on Nov 20, 2012 15:25:44 GMT
Last year there were a lot of comments on hear about how people thought things should be done and with ideas for change but as usual didnt then bother to put in any proposals or turn up at the AGM.
Believe it or not were not all ogres on the Committee and do listen to people.
My suggestion is try it one year and see what happens. If your that interested in commenting on here who knows your views might be discussed and even better you could be elected on to the Committee.
Nothing i've said refers to just this thread. Last year there were a lot of comments made by various people who then couldnt be bothered to turn up to the AGM or put letters in for things to be discussed.
|
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 20, 2012 15:33:29 GMT
Last year there were a lot of comments on hear about how people thought things should be done and with ideas for change but as usual didnt then bother to put in any proposals or turn up at the AGM. Believe it or not were not all ogres on the Committee and do listen to people. My suggestion is try it one year and see what happens. If your that interested in commenting on here who knows your views might be discussed and even better you could be elected on to the Committee. Nothing i've said refers to just this thread. Last year there were a lot of comments made by various people who then couldnt be bothered to turn up to the AGM or put letters in for things to be discussed. Well said Princess Fiona.... the daytime one of course! ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 15:59:40 GMT
Excellent comment, it's a good team at the moment but an injection of new young blood also a good thing from time to time (to keep the old 'uns on their toes.....) LOL ;D
|
|
about that at the time but luckily it didn't affect the result of the game.... ;D
