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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:18:52 GMT
The loss of several teams from the Home & Away Competition in recent years has left us with just 3 teams in Division 3 this year.... sadly Eastbourne League has finished and West Sussex and Billingshurst are both unable to field teams now, although hopefully they will both continue to support the One Day Competitions. Various suggestions have been made in another thread about what can be done in the future, I have copied these over to this thread and would ask that further suggestions and discussion could be put here to keep the other thread (Series 1, 2014-15 Season) free for the results of the matches. Please let the Sussex Committee know your thoughts and feelings about the future, I am sure that I am not the only person that would like the competition to continue in the future.  |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:21:33 GMT
Any idea what will be happening with div 3 with billingshurst confirming that they will not have a side for this year. Is. It worth having a division confused.com |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:24:45 GMT
Just play it on 1 day and be done with it Bob Note.... we already have a one day competition and would incur significant additional costs for hire of tables should we add another one day competition.  |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:27:43 GMT
For the future I've been thinking of some options... How about putting Div2 & Div3 together & using the M23 as a divide creating an East / West with a neutral playoff at the end. East - Brighton teams, Lewes, Hastings, Mid Sussex West - Redhill, Horsham, Worthing teams, Littlehampton (& Billingshurst?) or... promote the top 2 teams from Div2 this year to create 8 teams in Div1 & leave Div2 with the remaining 7/8 teams? |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:29:51 GMT
With 15 teams left, looks good for 3 groups of 5 next year unless the remnants off billingshurst could join with the west sussex mob . |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:31:27 GMT
No point creating extra games just for the sake of it in div 3. Should just be a 1 day shoot out but never mind. Rather than playing everyone 4 times just make games worth double points, don't see any difference. Plus I do like not having to rush my roast and songs of praise sing along. |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 10:33:21 GMT
With 15 teams left, looks good for 3 groups of 5 next year unless the remnants off billingshurst could join with the west sussex mob . I don't think that's very practical, both sides have completely separate identities and you have the South Downs in between. I would be surprised if we've completely seen the back of either team. I think Sk1ppy offered the best solution of zoning for the lower division with an East v West playoff. This has been tried before with reasonable success: Sussex is a long county, and anything that reduces the travelling for the sides at the extremities has got to be a good move. |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 5, 2014 11:49:28 GMT
I don't think that's very practical, both sides have completely separate identities and you have the South Downs in between. I would be surprised if we've completely seen the back of either team. I think Sk1ppy offered the best solution of zoning for the lower division with an East v West playoff. This has been tried before with reasonable success: Sussex is a long county, and anything that reduces the travelling for the sides at the extremities has got to be a good move. Looking back at old records on the Sussex Website, I can see that there used to be 2 Divisions with Division 2 being played as "East" and "West" with the winners of each region having a play-off to decide promotion to Division 1. The last time that format was used was the 2003/04 Season, which was before my time of playing so I don't know why it was decided to change to a 3 Division format? Possibly it was because of the difference in standards between the teams that are regularly near the top of the current Division 2 and those that are traditionally Division 3 teams?  I think that one of the benefits of the current system of 3 separate divisions is that the standards of most teams in each division are generally fairly even so there are more competitive games between the teams in each division, you only have to look at the records to see that teams that are promoted up to Division 1 normally struggle to retain their place in their first season there and the same often applies to Division 3 teams that are promoted to Division 2. To give some idea of the difference in standards between the 3 Divisions you only have to look at the average player scores in each of them, last season the average player score in Division 1 was 6,079, in Division 2 it was 4,008 and in Division 3 it was 3,184. Would the existing Division 3 teams be keen to play half of their matches against much strnger teams.... or would they lose interest and would that result in the loss of further teams in the future? The suggestion of 2 Divisions of 8 could work, although the difference in standards would still be a factor I personally think.... BUT there are 2 big disadvantages to this idea. Firstly it would make the competition very long with 14 matches to be arranged and that would not be easy to fit in around the other National Competitions, Sussex Competition Weekend and One Day Inter League Competitions. Secondly, it would almost close the door to any return to the competition by either Billingshurst or West Sussex in the future.... unless the format was completely changed again. What other options do we have? The suggestion by Gandalf of 3 Divisions of 5 would appear to me to probably be the best idea for a short-term fix if we have the same number of teams for next season.... but is there a way that we can encourage the teams that have left to return or even look to get "new" teams into the competition? What do I mean by "new" teams? Eastbourne.... I know that many of the old Eastbourne League players travel long distances to play in Lewes, Hastings and even Worthing League and I am sure that some of them would still like to play Inter League but are unable to now that Eastbourne League has folded. Could some of them join with other players within the Leagues that they now play in to form a team as Lewes B or Hastings B with other players within those Leagues that would perhaps like to play Inter League but are not currently selected for their Leagues? Billingshurst.... I know that many Billingshurst players also play in Horsham, could they join up with players who are not in the Horsham Inter League team to form Horsham B, or could the Horsham players not join Billingshurst to give them a team of their own again? From what I understand, one of the reasons that Billingshurst haven't got a team this year is because nobody was really enthusiastic enough to organise and run a team, surely there must be somebody willing to take this job on?  West Sussex.... I believe that several West Sussex players also play in Littlehampton League, so could they join up with players there to become Littlehampton B? Looking at the other Leagues inside Sussex, it is hard to think that they might be able to raise any more teams than they currently have.... Brighton and Worthing struggled last year to field their C Teams on occasions and I doubt that Redhill, Tunbridge Wells or Mid-Sussex could raise another team so should we perhaps consider inviting teams from "outside" Sussex to take part.... for example Portsmouth or Medway if they would be interested? What other ideas are there to help bring back West Sussex and Billingshurst for next year? Perhaps Division 3 could be played as a 5-aside competition which may make it easier for both them (and other teams in that Division) to raise a team and fulfill the fixtures? To make it a bit more interesting we could even "steal" an idea from the Kent Inter League Competition that play their matches as 5 singles games and 2 doubles games at the end of the match? I would not want that to extend up to Divisions 1 and 2 as the 7-aside format is better there, but perhaps it would help the Division 3 teams? Rather than having the competition played on a League basis, should we even consider changing the Format to a knock-out competition which seems to work well in the (nothern) Inter-Area Competition, with maybe a Plate Competition for the sides that lose in the First Round to give everybody more games? I can't think of any more suggestions (at the moment) but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others about these ideas and anything else that people can think of? |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Oct 5, 2014 12:10:05 GMT
The big problem that caused the eastbourne team to fold was the lack of people willing to drive and not drink, starting a 2nd Hastings team has already been looked at but the transport problem would be multiplied by effectively playing ALL Games as an away team A 5 man team sounds good but what if that team gets promoted? Generally those wishing to play BB will find a way, those that have become bored with it will find a way to fade away....been there, got the teashirt  |
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sk1ppy
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Post by sk1ppy on Oct 5, 2014 18:00:35 GMT
Horsham would welcome any of the Billingshurst players into the team this year.
Adam 07557221005
(Our 1st game is 12.10.14 at Worthing)
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 6, 2014 11:14:32 GMT
Horsham would welcome any of the Billingshurst players into the team this year. Adam 07557221005 (Our 1st game is 12.10.14 at Worthing) The thought behind my idea was that Horsham might be able to give some players to Billingshurst.... not for Horsham to take players and make it even less likely that Billingshurt can return in the future. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 11:25:54 GMT
Yeah, trust a vulture to home in and pick over the corpse !  |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 6, 2014 11:28:42 GMT
A 5 man team sounds good but what if that team gets promoted? If a team does get promoted from Division 3 then they would have to find a couple more players to be able to compete in the higher division for the following season, sometimes success in a competition does lead to more enthusiasm from other players and hopefully they would not find that too difficult. I suppose that another thought would be to change the whole format to 5-aside for all divisions, potentially that could mean that some existing players may join or start new teams and that could actually be a benefit if that happened.... unfortunately the alternative scenario would be that some players would simply be lost to inter league which is not such a nice thought. |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 6, 2014 11:31:13 GMT
Yeah, trust a vulture to home in and pick over the corpse ! I thought it was more like a kangaroo hopping on the grave myself....  |
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sk1ppy
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Post by sk1ppy on Oct 6, 2014 13:13:22 GMT
Yeah, trust a vulture to home in and pick over the corpse ! I thought it was more like a kangaroo hopping on the grave myself.... Horsham isn't flush with keen IL players either gentlemen!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 13:41:18 GMT
Take no notice of us pi$$ takers. Actually I thought it was a very nice offer, made with the best of intentions.  |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 6, 2014 14:12:09 GMT
Horsham isn't flush with keen IL players either gentlemen! And there lies the problem.... the lack of interest. Last year, 105 players played in the Billingshurst League and 99 players appeared in Horsham League according to the (very good) websites run by Tommo.... this year Billingshurst can't raise 7 players for an Inter League Team and Horsham also sound as if they could be struggling based on the post by Sk1ppy above. So what can we do to make people want to start playing Inter League again...??  |
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sk1ppy
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Post by sk1ppy on Oct 6, 2014 14:35:34 GMT
SUNDAY night is the reason I hear all the time.
I manage to get thru by playing earlier between 5-7pm thanks to the good grace of our fellow teams.
I assure you that I will struggle to get a regular full team if it was 8.30pm & not before starts.
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sk1ppy
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Post by sk1ppy on Oct 6, 2014 14:37:28 GMT
Take no notice of us pi$$ takers. Actually I thought it was a very nice offer, made with the best of intentions. None taken Sir!  I too wish there was an easy answer... Reluctantly, having only recently found this game & fallen for it, it is dying out! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 14:38:23 GMT
I don't think that much of a problem exists really, and it's a bit unfair to point the finger at Horsham and Billingshurst where traditionally the interest waxes and wanes. Both leagues have decided to have a year off in the past and have bounced back. This year it's Billingshurst's turn, and it's just unfortunate that it coincides with the demise of Eastbourne.
There's every chance of seeing them back, taking part in the One Day event (as is the case with West-Sussex) so with it being too late to do anything for this year maybe it's best just to leave next year's format to next year when you know for definite what teams you've got. And perhaps the idea of 'zoning' should be left on the table as a carrot !
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 6, 2014 14:56:47 GMT
SUNDAY night is the reason I hear all the time. The Rules state that the games can be played on either a Sunday or Monday night so perhaps it would be easier for you to get a team on a Monday evening? With agreement from the opposition, I doubt that there would be any real objection to games being played on other nights providing it was BEFORE the date the match was designated to be played on and the Inter League Secretary was notified in advance. |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Oct 6, 2014 15:58:24 GMT
SUNDAY night is the reason I hear all the time. The Rules state that the games can be played on either a Sunday or Monday night so perhaps it would be easier for you to get a team on a Monday evening? With agreement from the opposition, I doubt that there would be any real objection to games being played on other nights providing it was BEFORE the date the match was designated to be played on and the Inter League Secretary was notified in advance. What about a Sunday lunchtime or Afternoon or early evening, I hear from my old lot that getting home at midnight or sometimes later is a real pain for early risers, but some forward planning and communication with the opps usually does the trick Mondays will be bad for Lewes League players |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 14, 2014 11:14:35 GMT
What about a Sunday lunchtime or Afternoon or early evening, I hear from my old lot that getting home at midnight or sometimes later is a real pain for early risers, but some forward planning and communication with the opps usually does the trick Sunday lunchtimes or afternoons would not work for me (and probably many others) as I consider that to be family time to spend with my children or do some gardening or work around the house, obviously for me that time is already restricted as I do usually support most of the tournaments that are played already. But there is nothing stopping teams arranging a different start time for matches.... as long as their opponents are willing to do that of course. Anybody else got any thoughts for a different format or something that we could consider for the future? |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 14, 2014 12:03:32 GMT
I don't think that much of a problem exists really I sincerely hope that you are right Tommo, although I must say that I am not really convinced about that.... many of the things that are happening in "Bar Billiard World" seem to indicate that the future of the game is very uncertain at the moment with falling numbers in League Teams, venues and players at local, national and even international levels.  I also hope that you are right about this.... There's every chance of seeing them back, taking part in the One Day event (as is the case with West-Sussex) so with it being too late to do anything for this year maybe it's best just to leave next year's format to next year when you know for definite what teams you've got. .... and that Billingshurst and West Sussex enter the One Day Competitions this season and return to the Home & Away format again in the future, but I also think that we need to look at what will happen if they don't return next year to give the Sussex Committee plenty of time to discuss the options and provide some form of solutions before the end of the current season to enable teams to know where they will stand next season. It would seem that the following scenarios could exist next year..... 1) If both Billingshurst & West Sussex (or 2 or more new teams) enter the Home & Away competition, there would be no need to change the current format of 3 Divisions with Divisions 1 & 2 retaining 6 teams in each and Division 3 having the remaining 5 (or more) teams. Promotion & Relegation at the end of this season could remain as 1 up and 1 down. 2) If only one new (or returning) team joined next year, the Sussex Committee would then have to look at the the various options that would be available with that number of teams:- a) 6 teams in Divisions 1 & 2 with 4 teams in Division 3, perhaps with neutral games as was proposed this year? b) 6 teams in Division 1, and 5 teams in Divisions 2 & 3. That would either mean 2 teams being relegated from Division 2 or no promotion from Division 3 at the end of this season. c) 6 teams in Division 1, new format (zoning?) for Divisions 2 and 3? d) Completely new format.... maybe 2 Divisions of 8 teams? There would be ways to keep this to the current "10 match format" so we don't have to extend the season further than we have at present. 3) If no additional teams join next year, it becomes even more complicated.... a) We could keep the existing format from this year with 3 teams in Division 3 playing each other home and away twice. b) Have 3 Divisions of 5 teams, meaning either 2 teams would be relegated from Divisions 1 and 2 at the end of this season or there would be no promotions and only 1 team relegated from each Division? c) 6 teams in Division 1, 5 teams in Division 2 and 4 teams in Division 3.... promotion & relegations between Divisions 2 and 3 to be decided using one of the formats above? d) Complete new format (see option 2d) above) for the entire competition....?? Personally, I think that teams should know as soon as possible what COULD happen next season as soon as possible.... that they may be relegated even if they don't finish bottom of their division or may not be promoted even if they win their Division, surely that is only reasonable and could influence decisions that they make during the course of the current season?  Obviously, in an ideal world, Billingshurst and West Sussex both say that they will return and play next season.....  .... as without that we may find that some other teams may decide that they won't bother to enter teams next year either! |
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Post by "Silent" on Oct 14, 2014 12:42:44 GMT
My understanding is that there will be one team relegated from Division 1, one promoted from Division 2, two relegated from Division 2, one promoted from Division 3. Before Billingshurst withdrew, there was obviously more to this than just lack of players, this was agreed at the AGM. If the status quo remains that would mean six in Division 1, five in Division 2 and four in Division 3 (with a third match on neutral table I guess).
If either/both of the two teams mentioned returned I assume they would go into Division 3.
I don't see those scenarios being a problem, no changes required.
Of concern is the difference in standard within just one Division, I haven't looked that closely but playing in Division 1 last year and looking at some of the past records it is dominated by Brighton A, Worthing A and Redhill A with all the other teams yo-yoing (is that a word??!!) about between being relegated from Division 1 and then winning Division 2 - some teams win Division 2 10-0 and then get relegated the following season from the top Division.
Somehow all three divisions have got to be as competitive as possible, whilst maintaining a structure that makes it easy to do fixtures and ensuring all divisions have a similar number of matches.
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 14, 2014 14:21:18 GMT
My understanding is that there will be one team relegated from Division 1, one promoted from Division 2, two relegated from Division 2, one promoted from Division 3. Before Billingshurst withdrew, there was obviously more to this than just lack of players, this was agreed at the AGM. If the status quo remains that would mean six in Division 1, five in Division 2 and four in Division 3 (with a third match on neutral table I guess). Unfortunately I was on holiday when the AGM was held this year, I did not know that was discussed and the above post is the first time that I have heard that anything was discussed about it. But I still think that it would be a good idea to look at different options now, leaving plenty of time to notify teams of what will happen next season under different scenarios depending on how many teams we will have. If either/both of the two teams mentioned returned I assume they would go into Division 3. That would be the obvious and logical thing to do if they return next year, or in the future. Of concern is the difference in standard within just one Division, I haven't looked that closely but playing in Division 1 last year and looking at some of the past records it is dominated by Brighton A, Worthing A and Redhill A with all the other teams yo-yoing (is that a word??!!) about between being relegated from Division 1 and then winning Division 2 - some teams win Division 2 10-0 and then get relegated the following season from the top Division. Tunbridge Wells have been ever-present in Division once since they were promoted 7 or 8 years ago, Worthing B were also an established Division 1 team for many years before being relegated 2 years ago.... so it is only really the problem of one team that is not quite as good as the other Division 1 teams normally. There is a notable difference in standard between Division 1 and Division 2, that is obvious both from the player averages in both divisions (Division 1 average is normally 50% higher than Division 2) and the simple fact that some teams do "yo-yo" between the two divisions.... I'm not sure we will ever overcome that problem unless a team outside of Division 1 are fortunate enough to attract some very good players who want to represent their League in this competition. I think that the current system of promotion & relegation has to continue for the whole competition to remain viable in the future. |
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Post by bobhall on Oct 14, 2014 14:35:39 GMT
The standard of play in division 1 is far higher than other divisions but this is where I aim to get myself to I was someone who wanted to be a top flight player as I felt it improves the game all I suggest is we try and get more people interested to stand a chance of having more inter league teams
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Post by "Silent" on Oct 14, 2014 14:39:23 GMT
Unfortunately I was on holiday when the AGM was held this year, I did not know that was discussed and the above post is the first time that I have heard that anything was discussed about it. But I still think that it would be a good idea to look at different options now, leaving plenty of time to notify teams of what will happen next season under different scenarios depending on how many teams we will have. I think it was on the fixture list as a note to captains but I could be wrong I agree with your second point but am not convinced that any changes or not will make any difference to the overall numbers that want to play Inter-League. |
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Post by "Silent" on Oct 14, 2014 14:45:03 GMT
The standard of play in division 1 is far higher than other divisions but this is where I aim to get myself to I was someone who wanted to be a top flight player as I felt it improves the game all I suggest is we try and get more people interested to stand a chance of having more inter league teams Yes and you have backed that up Bob (albeit you are now captaining a team in Division 3)!!!! However I have heard a number of players say that they want to improve their game but simply can't be bothered to try and do it |
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doug
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Post by doug on Oct 14, 2014 14:45:22 GMT
I'm going to add my tuppence worth here now. It has always been a tradition as far as I can remember that any new team or an old team rejoining always went into the third division so that answers that point. Even Tunbridge Wells when they entered the 'Sussex' Interleague started at the bottom but soon moved up to the first and have stayed there ever since on merit. To Dave's point there is too much of a difference in standard for East and West to work and I personally feel that three divisions is the only workable solution. I think that arranging matches earlier on a sunday DOES work as long as the team's concerned are in agreement. We did this with Horsham a while back but only so that they could good out on the pi$$ in Brighton afterwards (Hard to believe I know). We started at 5.00 amd so were finished just after eight but I think the Horsham boys then went home as they had enjoyed our hospitality a little too much.
Finally to the age old problem of who is driving. There are many minibus companies in the County and as the teams are currently seven a side could the cost of hire not be split amongst the teams so that no-one has to avoid alcohol for the evening! I believe this system was used along time in the past but if the fixtures are arranged in such a way then teams can share so for example could Brighton A and Brighton B not play Worthing A and Worthing B on the same night in the same town?
Food indeed.
Doug
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.... as without that we may find that some other teams may decide that they won't bother to enter teams next year either!