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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 9:50:08 GMT
Left in archive as a record of what was said at the time, live posts moved to bar Billiards discussion as the topic is still live
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 9:50:43 GMT
Who can tell me what??
I have always adhered to the David Gill account of seeing Billiard Russe in Belgium and getting Jelkes of London to copy it in 1934.
But where does snookerette fit into the equation? There was a company called Snookerette Ltd who were done for unlicenced public billiards in 1936
discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1258299
They produced the narrow version of bar billiards tables (AKA narrow Sams). These were the same dimensions as the Belgian version which predates Bar Billiards as modern wide table were a copy of it. Googling suggests that Snookerette tables pre-date the tables we are familiar with.
There is much confusion with Snookerette also being referred to as the pin game (31's) played on a snooker/pool table with pins corresponding to the snooker ball values, also carom.
Billard Russe is certainly a century or more old, it appears possible that Snookerette may be of a similar age
www.instappraisal.com/appraisal/snookerette-ltd-english-bar-billiards-table-1890
It existed in enclaves in East Anglia (still does in the Gedney Hill League).
I can find no info on the origins of Billard Russe or Snookerette.
Can anyone throw any light on this? Sounds like one for Clive!
Sav
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 9:51:14 GMT
Details on the early history are indeed sketchy, and I have recently tried to pull the strands together and published what we know as certain on "Timeline Part 1". Main source is James Masters website AND Ralph Tarratt's book Knight of the Whistle.Certain interesting aspects have come to light during the research: for instance the first known score of 20k was made on 3rd Jan 1961 by 20-y-o Brian Hudson of Chatham (22,100 in 19 minutes). Simon Tinto, in his "History of the Redhill League 1948 - 1998" publication poses the question "How would the best players today have coped with imparting spin on the heavy ivory balls of the past as compared to the lighter cellulites of the present ? And judging from the scores that were common in the early days, it seems that bar billiards - even for the best players - was a game of gentle potting rather than the aggressive modern in-off style."In Knight of the Whistle Ralph endorses the claim that David Gill introduced the game here in 1930, after he saw it being played in Belgium, where it was popular in tea and coffee houses, and was impressed by its potential to catch on in public houses. Breweries caught on quickly to the idea and were willing to pump money into the game's growth, sponsoring league trophies. Yes the Snookerette situation emanated from a legal wrangle over who would copyright the name 'bar billiards' to trade under. The final point is that the concept of potting for points emanates from bagatelle, which was around in the 18th century.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 9:51:47 GMT
I've read the very interesting timeline but cannot say I can fully accept the premise over copyright infringement.
Communications in the 1930's were sparse compared with those of today with no social media for people of one area to find out what happens in another.
What I do know from experience is that French Billard Russe slates (no 200 hole) are identical to the early narrow tables pre-dating narrow Sams. The Billard Russe table I refurbished from France even had the 200 hole marked out though not drilled.
Sams only took out an English clock patent in 1950 presumably replacing the earlier Brevette clocks from France (another connection with France!)
worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19540519&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=GB&NR=709182A&KC=A&ND=4
My supposition is that Snookerette tables or other pre 1934 tables existed in East Anglia without the knowledge of our Kentish predecessor Mr Gill. There is evidence of early Padmore tables (suggested 1920's on Mercury Leisure site) that look decidedly French. If a supposed mistake was made in ordering a batch of slates it could well have been our wide tables that were wrong!!
I am now entirely unconvinced that Bar Billiards started in 1934 at the Rose & Crown at Elham in Kent, just Bar Billiards as we wide table three pinners like to think is the Holy Grail.
Why was the 200 hole added in copying Billard Russe?, possibly because some bright spark at Jelkes had seen snookerette tables in East Anglia?
Why did Sams make both versions of the table, narrow and wide? to me they can only have been copying both versions of the game and Sams came from Heretfordshire, midway between the two enclaves.
Sav
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 9:52:16 GMT
I am now entirely unconvinced that Bar Billiards started in 1934 at the Rose & Crown at Elham in Kent, just Bar Billiards as we wide table three pinners like to think is the Holy Grail. I'm now inclined to agree, but have an inkling that there were slightly smaller tables around pre-WW2 which were referred to as Russian Billiards. Probably without the clock and bar mechanism which is necessary for rental operation in public premises. My grandfather owned one and it had a heavy slate base and the family used to hide under it during the blitz raids. The house in New Malden eventually took a direct hit while no-one was at home ! Years later he bought a half-size snooker-cum dining table and I was taught 3-ball billiards by my grandmother !
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 9:52:49 GMT
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