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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 13, 2023 9:53:56 GMT
And that attitude is one of the principal reasons virtually no one who takes up our game stays with it unless they themselves are talented with a cue. Do you expect your wife to practice bar billiards when she hardly gets a go and gets mullered if she enters a competition? Oh I didn’t realise that was the only game she played oh wait it wouldn’t be plus it’s the world championships you are talking about and if I remember rightly you on quite a few occasions would have put in big scores and didn’t give your opponent a shot. And I’m sorry but I practiced hard played in lots of leagues to get better I used to play 5-6 times a week when I could so With the greatest respect to both of you, although the feedback you have given here is interesting as it gives opposite views of what is "right or wrong" about what happens in the national competitions at the moment, the purpose of me starting this thread was to see if there was anything we can do to make these more "inclusive" for players of all standards.... not whether it is right (or wrong) that a player who enters a competition should expect to be thrashed by someone going for a high break trophy. So, if either of you - or anyone else - has a suggestion of what we can do to make these competitions more attractive to players of all standards, please feel free to continue this discussion and give us all something to think about for the future.
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Post by bobhall on Feb 13, 2023 10:13:19 GMT
One way round that would be high break for 1/4 onwards then that way it doesn’t matter but then you also have the player that will kill a game off in first visit and then the other player will still moan so no win win ever people need to just accept the fact I am sorry but the majority of the people that moan don’t practice enough and don’t try to learn And here you can see exactly why so many people no longer enter the Opens and National Tournaments, they simply don't enjoy spending their time and money to travel for several hours and then sit there watching someone else play, wait around for a few more hours and then have the same happen to them in the Plate.... so, they just don't bother entering. Yes, sometimes we do see some "surprise" results and you only have to look at the quarter-finalists at the West Sussex Open competition played yesterday to see that can happen.... but, in most of the Opens that is very unusual. My personal opinion is that unless we can offer something that means that more players can have a competition in which they have a better opportunity to ENJOY playing some games, we will end up in the situation that the Opens simply become glorified Grand Prix competitions in which only the "top players" will bother to enter. This will then mean that the competitions are no longer financially viable to run, so how long can the be sustained....? Last year, Oxon (41), Kent (42) and Bucks (46) barely covered the cost of the table hire from the number of entries, I would imagine that all 3 lost money once the cost of trophies and prize money is included, although raffle income may have helped them to break even. Let's hope that the number of entries goes up this year.... But, I go back to my original question.... how can we encourage more people to take part and play in the national competitions? There is a lot more to it though the cost of living is through the roof so as someone who has to travel alone to competitions you are looking at me spending around £30-40 a day to go to a competition yes ok yesterday I played ok considering I am struggling but can I justify that cost not sure I can as I have bills to pay if I was to enter the Yorkshire open if they held one that’s gonna need a hotel booking or very early start and not sure I want that either. And to be honest only a hand full of them come and play down here irrespective of having scores put past them as that’s luck of the draw. The issue lays with local leagues sadly how many local players play in the competition when it is on there doorstep not alot and that’s because they don’t want to they enjoy there evening out but are not interested in day events look at yesterday for example, a great number of local people entered which is fantastic but how many players from surrounding leagues entered Horsham 0 mid sussex 0 lewes 0 other than ones that play multiple leagues billingshurst 0 as Michael Wilson is Surrey which doesn’t help So the question is, is it because people don’t know about the event going on is it because now all tournaments are having to be capped or is it because people stop entering because they just feel they are not good enough to win it so what’s the point now ?
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Post by tommo III on Feb 13, 2023 11:01:04 GMT
Bob makes a good point about some Opens not being sufficiently supported by the organising county's own players: true in a few cases, in the World Championships especially. But then those who attend are just as much there for the holiday experience as for progress in the competition. The counties where this is most noticeable are ones where their own numbers are diminishing so I suppose we are lucky that they're still making the effort to run a National event - for the rest of us !
To return to the main point, made by BB Warrior: Running a Plate Competition would normally be the answer, but has been said, over the years the Plates have fulfilled the purpose of allowing the top players a second bite of the cherry - to restore some pride and make their journey worthwhile after all - rather than to allow an 'underdog' to snatch a bit of glory.
So the answer is obvious to me: Run a third section, a 'Minnows'. If you can forgive me for drawing a parallel with the Chess world, the standard format for a Congress is to offer a choice of five sections to enter: Open, Major, Intermediate, Minor and Novice. You pays your money and takes your choice. Grandmasters are restricted to entering the top section ('Open') but lesser humans are allowed to have a go in this section as well for the possibility of facing an all-time-great.
I would also add that 30 years ago the fee to enter a Congress was £18 which we coughed up cheerfully, so I would say that our bar billiards Opens at £11 are considerably under-priced.
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Dave J
Full Forum Member
Posts: 79
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Post by Dave J on Feb 13, 2023 13:43:52 GMT
Would a Saturday be a better day?
Why are all AEBBA comps, not just opens (and inter-league) etc, played on a Sunday (except Oxford)?
Surrey mostly fill the Saturday comp but many won't play both days. Many won't play the open either way.
I hate playing Sunday with travel and work the next day.
With a Saturday you might have more time to try different formats with more games, as it's possibly less of an issue playing later.
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 13, 2023 15:58:04 GMT
OK, I know 4 pin is a totally different game, but here in Suffolk we play our open on a Saturday and we split players into groups of four, top two from each group progress to the main comp while the bottom two go into the plate, this means everyone gets at least 4 games, yes I know in 3 pin you play the best of 2 legs so everyone gets to take part in four legs, but with our format it means you get to play at least 4 different opponents, three in the group stages and then at least one more in the main or plate comp.
May be you could try something similar in 3 pin even if you had to play only one leg and limit each break to a maximum of say 8K during the groups, this should still mean the better player would win but at least the less skilled players would get a chance to have a shot and play different opponent's. I realise that limiting the break to a maximum figure will be frowned on by the top players but surely it would mean the average player may be a little bit more inclined to enter when he knows he is not going to just sit there for the complete leg while watching someone rack up a massive break or even play the table out, you could always revert back to the best of two legs after the group stage and do away with the cap on the break.
As has already been said, some people don't have the time or just don't want to spend hours practicing, and knowing they stand a good chance of being thrashed in an open really doesn't give them the incentive to enter in the first place. Unfortunately there appears to be a massive gap between the top players who have the skill and concentration to stay on the table and hit big breaks and those who are happy with a 2 or 3K break.
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 13, 2023 18:26:43 GMT
Thank you all for the great suggestions so far, more opinions would always be welcomed. A brief summary of some of the ideas so far..... 1) More Publicity for the competitions, especially in local leagues. Bobhall has pointed out that one of the reasons that people don't participate (even in their local Open) is that they may not even know about it, which could be a very valid point. I know a lot of great information is always available on this Forum and entry forms can also be got on here, however not all players use the forum and even those that do may only look at results and information for their own local leagues. Apart from the Forum, I think it tends to be word of mouth is the main way that people find out about the national competitions, so perhaps we need an better way to transmit the information to more players? 2) Run a "Third" Competition (in addition to the Main Open & Plate) This suggestion has been put forward by Michael, Tommo and also in an earlier post by myself under various names (Minnows, Shield and Challenger Plate) and I truly think there is merit in this idea. Whether it would be offered to lower-ranked players as a "subsiduary" Plate Competition or as a stand-alone competition run alongside an Open for the same players, it could prove to be a way to attract the players to take part who currently believe that it is not worthwhile for them to play as they are "not good enough".... Probably the only way we could find out if it made a difference would be for one (or more) of the counties to actually trial it. 3) Would Saturday be a better day to run an Open Tournament? DaveJ from Surrey put this suggestion forward, personally I can see both positives and negatives in that. On the plus side, it would mean that you wouldn't have to get up early to go to work the following day after a long journey home after a competition and could allow for different formats/longer playing time due to that. On the other side of the coin, many people probably have family commitments on the Saturday (even if it is only doing the weekly shopping) and I am sure that the football supporting players would probably object if it meant them missing a match for their local team. As Dave has pointed out, Oxon have always run their Open on a Saturday, however the numbers for that competition have fallen a long way in recent years. 4) Replace First Round Knock-Out with Groups DaveUK has suggested this and I know that they play this in their 4-Pin Competition and this format is also used for the World Championships in Jersey and also for the AEBBA Pairs in Bournemouth. It has also been used a few times in previous Opens when the number of entries have been low. I think that this is another suggestion that certainly should be given serious consideration and it could easily be fitted into a format for up to 64 players within the "normal" timeframe for Opens if single legs for the Group Games were used. If you then had a Plate (and/or a "Third" Competition), it would mean that all players would play at least 4 different players which, hopefully, would mean that they would not just be thrashed by a top player. Obviously, when we look at any changes to the Formats for the National Tournaments, we do need to remember that these competitions have always been intended to allow the top players in the country to play competitively and that does need to be continued in the future. However, we also need to consider that if we want our game to continue to be played in the future, we do also need to cater for the 90% of players who "only play for the enjoyment of the game" and we NEED THOSE PLAYERS TO PARTICIPATE in competitions to enable them to be financially viable. Personally, I think it is really good for the game when an Open Competition has lots of people taking part that do not normally enter the tournaments and you only need to look at some of the people who reached the Quarter-Finals of the West Sussex Open yesterday to see that it is not always the "elite" players that only do well in the competitions.
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Post by joefoxon on Feb 14, 2023 15:44:53 GMT
Of the suggestions given so far, I'd offer the following from my own point of view, and throw a couple of other ideas into the mix:
1) Publicity is very important, but that has to be led by the AEBBA committee. The website is good for statistics of past events, but the calendar of tournaments is only accessible from one link on the menu bar. Maybe something a bit more prominent would be good? At the WBBA event, I ran live streams of some of the games, the AEBBA hasn't really attempted this before to the best of my knowledge. The online presence isn't great, there isn't even a Facebook page for the organisation.
2) A third competition might be good, however it's a little harsh on the lower-ranked players to not get a chance at a run in the plate, and immediately be relegated to the "shield". I have an alternative suggestion that I'll go into more detail on.
3) Saturdays would be hugely preferable to me. I previously mentioned that the length of trip for some Opens is a discouraging factor, but this would be an awful lot more palatable if players didn't have work the following day.
4) I'd enjoy something with a group stage format as a way of balancing the groups a bit more fairly.
5) Allow knocked-out players use of empty tables. A great feature of the first Challenger event in Nottingham was the addition of the "coaching table". Curt was very kindly on hand for the day to give hints and tips to players, and at Opens, we have even more elite players there that could offer their expertise, as well as the simple fact of giving newer tables more table time. The quality of tables at national competitions compared to some local leagues is often night and day, and it'd be a fantastic way to build confidence with players knowing they can commit to shots and trust in the table to send the balls where they're supposed to go.
6) Qualifying rounds. Give the top 16 entrants a bye to the last 32, while the lower ranked players face off against each other in the first round, thereby meaning that those knocked out will at least play two matches against players of similar standard before there's even a chance of the top 16 dropping into the plate. Ensure that everyone knocked out in the qualifiers and last 32 gets a chance to drop into the plate, even if they win their first match. Two players of 2k/game standard meeting in the first round shouldn't mean losing by 20k points in the second round and being sent home.
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Post by bobhall on Feb 14, 2023 17:21:21 GMT
Of the suggestions given so far, I'd offer the following from my own point of view, and throw a couple of other ideas into the mix: 1) Publicity is very important, but that has to be led by the AEBBA committee. The website is good for statistics of past events, but the calendar of tournaments is only accessible from one link on the menu bar. Maybe something a bit more prominent would be good? At the WBBA event, I ran live streams of some of the games, the AEBBA hasn't really attempted this before to the best of my knowledge. The online presence isn't great, there isn't even a Facebook page for the organisation. 2) A third competition might be good, however it's a little harsh on the lower-ranked players to not get a chance at a run in the plate, and immediately be relegated to the "shield". I have an alternative suggestion that I'll go into more detail on. 3) Saturdays would be hugely preferable to me. I previously mentioned that the length of trip for some Opens is a discouraging factor, but this would be an awful lot more palatable if players didn't have work the following day. 4) I'd enjoy something with a group stage format as a way of balancing the groups a bit more fairly. 5) Allow knocked-out players use of empty tables. A great feature of the first Challenger event in Nottingham was the addition of the "coaching table". Curt was very kindly on hand for the day to give hints and tips to players, and at Opens, we have even more elite players there that could offer their expertise, as well as the simple fact of giving newer tables more table time. The quality of tables at national competitions compared to some local leagues is often night and day, and it'd be a fantastic way to build confidence with players knowing they can commit to shots and trust in the table to send the balls where they're supposed to go. 6) Qualifying rounds. Give the top 16 entrants a bye to the last 32, while the lower ranked players face off against each other in the first round, thereby meaning that those knocked out will at least play two matches against players of similar standard before there's even a chance of the top 16 dropping into the plate. Ensure that everyone knocked out in the qualifiers and last 32 gets a chance to drop into the plate, even if they win their first match. Two players of 2k/game standard meeting in the first round shouldn't mean losing by 20k points in the second round and being sent home. I don’t agree with the last part as I don’t think that would ever work and should not be considered We want to get the game moving forward you guys talk about wanting a table to be able to practice on and be coached which I think is a great idea and that I could see working but we need you to be more active in the games come down support play give it a go. There is a young girl who has just started playing I may be wrong but anywhere of the age of 9-12 I am not sure exactly but I have watched her twice now play and she doesn’t give up she keeps on trying and till the very end and just wants to play. Now don’t get me wrong she has an excellent playing dad as a coach but because she is willing to come and play everyone is behind her to get better and succeed that’s what it’s all about but unless you come to more than one event you will never know. I would also say to all the Sheffield Suffolk nottingham guys and girls try the world championships give that a go it’s a whole new playing field yes you may get one player put 10-16k past you in a match but not every game is like that. Doubles games on Fridays group games on a Saturday two practice tables an excellent venue and the whole barbilliards community is there
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 14, 2023 20:28:39 GMT
Hello Joe, thank you for your feedback which is much appreciated. I have responded to the points you have raised in yellow.... Of the suggestions given so far, I'd offer the following from my own point of view, and throw a couple of other ideas into the mix: 1) Publicity is very important, but that has to be led by the AEBBA committee. The website is good for statistics of past events, but the calendar of tournaments is only accessible from one link on the menu bar. Maybe something a bit more prominent would be good? At the WBBA event, I ran live streams of some of the games, the AEBBA hasn't really attempted this before to the best of my knowledge. The online presence isn't great, there isn't even a Facebook page for the organisation. The AEBBA does actually have a Facebook page (All England Bar Billiards Association) but that does not appear to have been used for almost 3 years. The fact that you didn't even know about it says that it clearly is not effectively used to promote the game. 2) A third competition might be good, however it's a little harsh on the lower-ranked players to not get a chance at a run in the plate, and immediately be relegated to the "shield". I have an alternative suggestion that I'll go into more detail on. Hmmm, okay.... I am not sure it was intended to make anyone feel that they had been "relegated" to the Shield, it was simply trying to give players the opportunity to avoid playing any big guns that may have fallen into the Plate in the First Round. Unfortunately, the time available on a one day Open Competition would not allow players to play in the Main Competition, a Plate competition and then enter the Shield as well, but I suppose players could nominate in advance on their entry form as to whether they would prefer to play in the Plate or the Shield if they were beaten in their first game in the main competition and I'm sure that some restrictions on rankings could be introduced to stop high ranked players playing in the Shield.3) Saturdays would be hugely preferable to me. I previously mentioned that the length of trip for some Opens is a discouraging factor, but this would be an awful lot more palatable if players didn't have work the following day. I think that some would prefer Saturday, some would be happy to stay with Sunday so it would be up to the organisers to decide which they think would be better for them.4) I'd enjoy something with a group stage format as a way of balancing the groups a bit more fairly. As all Open competitions are drawn randomly, it is not possible to say that Groups would balance out "more fairly" although that does normally prove to be the case. But you can get the Groups of Death and there is always the same chance of a group containing none of the top players. I would be strongly against "seeding" the top players to split them up to balance the draw as that is not what should happen in an Open Competition. 5) Allow knocked-out players use of empty tables. A great feature of the first Challenger event in Nottingham was the addition of the "coaching table". Curt was very kindly on hand for the day to give hints and tips to players, and at Opens, we have even more elite players there that could offer their expertise, as well as the simple fact of giving newer tables more table time. The quality of tables at national competitions compared to some local leagues is often night and day, and it'd be a fantastic way to build confidence with players knowing they can commit to shots and trust in the table to send the balls where they're supposed to go. Although I do like this idea, I am not sure it would be possible. Most Opens are run using 8 tables (which is the maximum number that the AEBBA Van can legally carry) and the tables are pretty much in continual use all day in an Open competition. At the Challenger event, Curt was obviously not taking part so was giving his time simply to support the event and although I know that many of the top players are always happy to give advice and tips, I think it unlikely that they would be able to spend all day between their matches helping run a practice table even if one was available at the venue. 6) Qualifying rounds. Give the top 16 entrants a bye to the last 32, while the lower ranked players face off against each other in the first round, thereby meaning that those knocked out will at least play two matches against players of similar standard before there's even a chance of the top 16 dropping into the plate. Ensure that everyone knocked out in the qualifiers and last 32 gets a chance to drop into the plate, even if they win their first match. Two players of 2k/game standard meeting in the first round shouldn't mean losing by 20k points in the second round and being sent home. As I said above, I would be strongly against any players being "seeded" for an Open Competition. Aside from the fact that it is often the early rounds that a top player is knocked out unexpectedly, there is also the fact that ranking points are also awarded for reaching certain stages of a competition, so by giving the top 16 players a bye into the last 32 all you would be doing is helping them to retain their ranking and making it harder for the players immediately below them to break into that "elite group". So, that idea would be a no for me - sorry.
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Post by joefoxon on Feb 16, 2023 9:48:55 GMT
While we have such opposition to giving newer players a few easier games to ease their way in, then unfortunately the answer to the original question will always remain "yes, we can offer more". The reason the WBBA event worked so well is because you were matched up to players of roughly similar level, but had the opportunity to progress to more difficult opponents.
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Post by tommo III on Feb 16, 2023 10:18:04 GMT
Joe, BB Warrior did, IMHO, make a fair analysis of the results of his survey, and the general consensus of opinion was that more ways could be found to make Opens more attractive for novices and for the so called 'lesser players'. As previously mentioned, there are already new events in the form of the AEBBA's Challenger tournament, and the WBBA (which offers extra prize money as an attraction).
Most of what you said was taken aboard, apart from the last paragraph of your post of 14/2/23 where you advocated a) players to be seeded and b) winners of early rounds being allowed into the Plate. Boball, myself and BB Warrior (and I expect many others) found these suggestions to be too radical.
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 17, 2023 14:13:05 GMT
While we have such opposition to giving newer players a few easier games to ease their way in, then unfortunately the answer to the original question will always remain "yes, we can offer more". The reason the WBBA event worked so well is because you were matched up to players of roughly similar level, but had the opportunity to progress to more difficult opponents. Hi Joe, I totally agree that the WBBA event was successful, for players of all standards and my experience of that is actually what prompted me to start this thread as it does seem very apparent that the current AEBBA/Open competitions do not appeal to a wide range of players at the moment. I think that the Challenger Events that have been played were successful and enjoyed by those that took part, York and Nottingham are probably the right areas to play those as there seems to be a growing number of enthusiastic "new players" in those areas. But, they would be a long journey for the players in the southern areas, so many of them would not enter a competition played up North. With numbers reducing at the Open Events, I doubt that any of the "traditional" established counties would be willing to run the financial risk of running a stand-alone Challenger Event in the South which is what led me to put forward the idea of adding a "Challenger Shield" event to be played as part of an Open Competition. Hopefully, that would encourage some more entries to enable the Opens to be financially viable to run and would also give some of the players that are still learning the game (or those trying to improve) a competition where they have a chance to play more games rather than just watch one of the top players running a table out against them, which I know puts a lot of players off from entering those competitions. Whether the "Challenger" event could be added as a "Secondary Plate" or played as a "Stand-Alone" Event played alongside the Main Open would probably depend on the number of entries, both overall and for the Challenger Event. I have looked into a format for the first of those options and I believe that a "Challenger Plate" could be included in an Open Competition for (up to) 64 players, with the first round played played as single legs in 16 groups of 4 players and it does appear to be possible. Now we just need to see if any of the Counties want to consider offering this as an option for their tournament.... as that is really the only way to see if this could be an option in the future.
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 17, 2023 14:23:42 GMT
Outline format for Tournament with (up to) 64 players. First round played with 16 groups of 4 players, single leg games. Top 2 in each Group to proceed to Round 2 (Last 32) of Main Competition, 3rd place player to go into Last 16 of "Open Plate" Competition and 4th place player into Last 16 of "Challenger Shield". All players would be guaranteed at least 4 games against different opponents with the opportunity to progress within a competition against a player who finished in a similar Group position to themselves. Time | Series | Table 1 | Table 2 | Table 3 | Table 4 | Table 5 | Table 6 | Table 7 | Table 8 | | Comments |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | 10.00 | 1 | A1 v A2 | B Group | C Group | D Group | E Group | F Group | G Group | H Group | | Main Competition, Round 1 (Groups A-H), single legs | 10.20 | 2 | A3 v A4 | | | | | | | | | | 10.40 | 3 | I1 v I2 | J Group | K Group | L Group | M Group | N Group | O Group | P Group | | Main Competition, Round 1 (Groups I-P), single legs | 11.00 | 4 | I3 v I4 | | | | | | | | | | 11.20 | 5 | H Group | A4 v A1 | B Group | C Group | D Group | E Group | F Group | G Group | | Main Competition, Round 1 (Groups A-H), single legs | 11.40 | 6 | | A2 v A3 | | | | | | | | | 12.00 | 7 | P Group | I4 v I1 | J Group | K Group | L Group | M Group | N Group | O Group | | Main Competition, Round 1 (Groups I-P), single legs | 12.20 | 8 | | I2 v I3 | | | | | | | | | 12.40 | 9 | G Group | H Group | A4 v A2 | B Group | C Group | D Group | E Group | F Group | | Main Competition, Round 1 (Groups A-H), single legs | 13.00 | 10 | | | A1 v A3 | | | | | | | | 13.20 | 11 | O Group | P Group | I4 v I2 | J Group | K Group | L Group | M Group | N Group | | Main Competition, Round 1 (Groups I-P), single legs | 13.40 | 12 | | | I1 v I3 | | | | | | | | 14.00 | 13 | | | | | | | | | | Main Competition, Round 2 (Last 32), double legs | | | | | | | | | | | | | 14.45 | 14 | | | | | | | | | | Main Competition, Round 2 (Last 32), double legs | | | | | | | | | | | | | 15.30 | 15 | | | | | | | | | | Open Plate, Round 1 (Last 16), single legs | 15.55 | 16 | | | | | | | | | | Challenger Shield, Round 1 (Last 16), single legs | 16.20 | 17 | | | | | | | | | | Main Competition, Round 3 (Last 16), double legs | | | | | | | | | | | | | 17.00 | 18 | | | | | | | | | | Open Plate, Quarter-Finals, double legs | | | | | | | | | | | | Challenger Shield, Quarter-Finals, double legs | 17.40 | 12 | | | | | | | | | | Main Competition, Quarter-Finals, double legs | | | | | | | | | | | | | 18.20 | 13 | | | | | | | | | | Semi-Finals All Competitions, double legs | | | | | | | | | | | | | 19.00 | 14 | | | | | | | | | | Finals All Competitions (Double Legs) | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 17, 2023 14:42:57 GMT
Okay, we have thrown a few ideas around here, most of those that have responded so far seem to think that we could offer more and have made suggestions of things that could encourage more players to take part. So far, we have not had any feedback either from those people that (kindly) run the Open competitions that we take part in or those at AEBBA who look after the game as a whole, hopefully we will get some viewpoints from those at some stage. Perhaps, one of the Open competitions will even offer to host a "new style" competition for us this year, as that is surely the only way that we can find out if it does attract new (or old) players to take part? Perhaps you think I am wrong to be concerned about the future of the national competitions, or maybe you have other ideas of how we can maintain these and make them more attractive in the future? Personally, I love playing this game and hope that it continues for many years to come. Over to you now....
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Post by tommo III on Feb 17, 2023 15:03:06 GMT
Quote BB Warrior: 64 entries for a competition ? That's a trifle optimistic, Dave. When the majority of Opens barely surpass 48 entries for the 'seasoned' individuals I reckon 16 would be realistic figure for a (separate) minor section. Baby steps and all that.
Not wishing to be detract from the sterling efforts put in by those running events at the moment, I would pick up on the earlier watchword used on this thread: Publicity. Perhaps there should be a little more in the way of blurb at the time of the announcement - rather than just the simple entry form, include some history, plus a list of prizes up for grabs. This need not specify the exact remuneration, as this will no doubt be governed by the total number of entries. A nice programme to keep by way of a souvenir is appreciated, though these seem to have been phased out by many counties for cost-cutting reasons.
And let's see more in the way of photos/writeups after the event has taken place, people like to receive credit for their successes and complacency seems to have set in recently with responsibility falling in the laps of just one or two.
Perhaps expecting things to stabilise so soon after Covid is too much to ask, but once numbers have picked up again, then is the time to fit in the extras. I suggest that entries could be offered as Two Tier: 1) Main and/or Plate, and 2) Novices and/or direct entry into the Plate.
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curtd
Distinguished Member
Posts: 619
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Post by curtd on Feb 17, 2023 16:40:02 GMT
Hi all
Just looking at the list of AEBBA comps planed for this year I believe there is only one that is open for anyone to enter, that being the Off The Spot comp in June. All the rest you either have to qualify for, be male or female or old . This doesn’t leave any room for any other comps. And looking at the Off the spot , this has been played in groups anyway for the last couple of years with a plate. Each player had a least 5 matches . This appears to be good value and lots of games.
I do think the county opens have more scope to change things up a bit and can run their comp as they please. Maybe have a normal straight knockout then everyone in the plate goes into groups ? Or just stick to groups from the start and knockout after that in both plate and main. I accept that in groups the lower ranked players could still play a higher ranked player but how are players going to improve if they don’t play better players and learn a few shots on the way.
The amount of time I see people playing and while not at the table aren’t watching what’s going on baffles me. It’s not just about watching how they go in but how someone misses as well. Always something to learn .
I’m sure a happy medium can be found or at least tried but I feel it’s the county open organisers who may have to change things up a bit for the reasons given.
Curt
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Post by Chris on Feb 17, 2023 19:40:24 GMT
Hi all Just looking at the list of AEBBA comps planed for this year I believe there is only one that is open for anyone to enter, that being the Off The Spot comp in June. All the rest you either have to qualify for, be male or female or old . This doesn’t leave any room for any other comps. And looking at the Off the spot , this has been played in groups anyway for the last couple of years with a plate. Each player had a least 5 matches . This appears to be good value and lots of games. I do think the county opens have more scope to change things up a bit and can run their comp as they please. Maybe have a normal straight knockout then everyone in the plate goes into groups ? Or just stick to groups from the start and knockout after that in both plate and main. I accept that in groups the lower ranked players could still play a higher ranked player but how are players going to improve if they don’t play better players and learn a few shots on the way. The amount of time I see people playing and while not at the table aren’t watching what’s going on baffles me. It’s not just about watching how they go in but how someone misses as well. Always something to learn . I’m sure a happy medium can be found or at least tried but I feel it’s the county open organisers who may have to change things up a bit for the reasons given. Curt Hi Good points raised Curt. For any Portsmouth player and possibly others, you have to be affiliated to the AEBBA to enter AEBBA Competitions. The Portsmouth league cannot find this, as only 3 players now play Opens outside of Portsmouth. There may be some players whom may wish to enter from Portsmouth, I have not asked, being honest there may be no one. In case there was or elsewhere, is there another way of collecting fees to affiliate e.g. £1 per player to enter AEBBA comps? Just a thought, that follows on from something Lauren Clough had mentioned. I think he suggested £1 per player in each league. I would suggest just £1 per player added to enter each AEBBA event. Not sure it would make a difference to player entries, worth raising as a thought for future AEBBA events. I realise to the large leagues such as Sussex the affiliation fees are small, compared to their league size and the amount of players. I am just trying to think outside the box to ensure there is an understanding from all league perspectives. Thanks Chris
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Post by joefoxon on Feb 19, 2023 23:04:47 GMT
Even ignoring my prior suggestions, one thing that would help take up would be "actually being contacted about it". The WBBA was very heavily advertised to Nottingham and continues to be for the follow up event. We've never once been asked by the organisers of a 3-pin open whether we'd like to take part. I realise that as an Open, we can still enter anyway, but why should we have to seek these out ourselves if they're the ones that want the numbers? Or are "minor" leagues not the target audience, so we HAVE to do it off our own backs?
I specifically say 3-pin as well, because we have been invited very kindly to numerous 4-pin events but have sadly had to decline as it's not a game enough of us are familiar with, but nonetheless, the effort was made.
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Post by tommo III on Feb 20, 2023 11:15:57 GMT
.... one thing that would help take up would be "actually being contacted about it". The WBBA was very heavily advertised to Nottingham and continues to be for the follow up event. We've never once been asked by the organisers of a 3-pin open whether we'd like to take part. I realise that as an Open, we can still enter anyway, but why should we have to seek these out ourselves if they're the ones that want the numbers? Or are "minor" leagues not the target audience, so we HAVE to do it off our own backs? ... Well, there's the Forum Calendar which you can click on using the toolbar above (third one along). Also there's a full calendar of events displayed on the AEBBA Website. I can only think of one case where it would be practical to give out a personal invite (apart from with the new WBBA)- and that would be one for the current holder of an Open to return to defend his/her title. And that is often coupled with a free entry.
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curtd
Distinguished Member
Posts: 619
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Post by curtd on Feb 20, 2023 11:36:05 GMT
Apparently my last post was to aggressive??
So I’ll try again
I don’t get invited to opens but I know where to get the information from as like a lot of players we use PB and know where to get the info. Please please use the info given by Clive to insure you know when all the county opens are. As an ambassador for billiards in your part of the world I would hope you would spread the word.
Thanks
Curt
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 20, 2023 11:47:59 GMT
Even ignoring my prior suggestions, one thing that would help take up would be "actually being contacted about it". The WBBA was very heavily advertised to Nottingham and continues to be for the follow up event. We've never once been asked by the organisers of a 3-pin open whether we'd like to take part. I realise that as an Open, we can still enter anyway, but why should we have to seek these out ourselves if they're the ones that want the numbers? Or are "minor" leagues not the target audience, so we HAVE to do it off our own backs? I specifically say 3-pin as well, because we have been invited very kindly to numerous 4-pin events but have sadly had to decline as it's not a game enough of us are familiar with, but nonetheless, the effort was made. Hi Joe, I certainly don't feel that the "minor" leagues are not included for any reason, it is more likely that the "traditional" leagues have more people that use the Forum to access information whereas areas like Nottingham and York possibly use other media areas (Facebook?) to provide information about events and competitions etc which isn't something that has been effectively used for Opens in the past. As Tommo has said, competition dates are put on the Forum here and entry forms can also be downloaded. When you play in Opens, there are normally entry forms for other competitions on the Admin Desks and, within Sussex, entry forms are always available at our internal county competitions and often carried around by the organisers to league games. It is good that the WBBA advertised for players in Nottingham, but, on the other side of that particular coin, I would say that they did not promote that event to most of the established players that take part in the County Opens, invitations were only sent to a selected few players and word of mouth was the way that many of the other players found out about it - myself included. In an ideal world, we would have some kind of central database of players to enable all competitions to be publicised and entry forms sent out to all areas of the country. If I remember correctly, AEBBA did have a Publicity Officer a few years ago, I am not sure what happened to that role but it does not exist any more - perhaps there was a reluctance from players to provide their personal details, I don't know? A few years ago, I used to send round copies of entry forms to a number of contacts within other counties, I stopped doing that when I moved abroad 5 years ago and don't think anyone ever continued to do that. So, at the moment, players from all counties have to search for the information themselves.... unless we can find some willing volunteers who will access all of the information and share this - both within their own leagues and to other areas of the country. It would be great if that could happen and maybe it would help us to promote the game in all areas?
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Post by joefoxon on Feb 20, 2023 14:06:17 GMT
I appreciate that the information can be found by those that want it, but if the question is "is there any more we could be doing?", then having an easy and cost-free way to start is useful. Perhaps a list of league secretaries rather than of players in general could be the way to go, letting the information filter down that way?
Curt, I didn't think your reply was aggressive or anything of the like at all, so apologies if my reply gave that impression!
I do usually seek out the year's calendar to share in our league's Whatsapp group, but understandably, once league results start coming in, it gets pushed further and further out of people's memories. I normally give a reminder prompt for competitions that I'm available for myself as well.
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Post by JB on Feb 21, 2023 0:35:14 GMT
Firstly no County that affiliates to AEBBA are treated as "minor" Counties. All Counties are treated the same.
When I took over as Secretary of AEBBA I asked for all Counties to let me have their Secretaries details. Although chasing I received only 2 Counties details and one of those was myself as Sussex Secretary. Theres only so much asking and chasing I’m going to do.
A lot of the criticism/talk has been about publicity most of which has been aimed at AEBBA. I can guarantee that there are a hell of a lot more players aware of AEBBA competitions, which are open to all players from affiliated Counties, than were aware of the recent WBBA competition which was mainly invites to people and a few who were told about it by those that had been invited. As an example Sussex has 7 leagues affiliated to the County. 90% of the players are non "elite" and I can say with certainty that almost 100% of these were not invited and knew nothing about this competition. (perhaps they are the wrong side of the river)
Not sure Facebook is the answer. I admit I'm not tech savvy but assume a page like the AEBBA is run by an administrator? I have no idea who the admins are for the page they seem to have disappeared. Probably needs the admins to come forward so we can change it or even delete the page and perhaps some willing person will set up a new one. As I said don't know much about running a page on FB so could be totally wrong.
I can't see the problem with the AEBBA website. Nearly all websites I go on you have to click on a link to get the Whats On/Calendar of Events
AEBBA have run events for over 50 years on no money as we are a non profit organisation. WBBA have run one. It is not the AEBBA’s job to run comps for novice players this surely should be down to the local leagues.
With over 100 players going to Bournemouth in a couple of weeks we must be doing something right with how we publicise events.
Not going into details how Counties run their opens as it is up to them, but, comparing them to the WBBA event is wrong. Firstly it was over 2 days ( a lot more time to run different competitions) and secondly anyone who has run an open knows the amount of time and effort that goes into it. Trying to sort players into groups depending on their ability, allocating tables etc or running different competitions would be a nightmare ( and a lot of extra time). It is not AEBBA ‘s job to promote County Opens although we do put a link to the entry forms on our website. Anyone can enter an open and its not difficult to find the entry forms and fill them in. The few people involved have enough to do with spending their own time and money on travelling, hours on sorting and writing formats, setting up tables (they don't magically appear), organising and running the day. If people have ideas for change then have a go at running a new competition. You just need to find a date, sort availabilty of tables, get players, find a venue, do a format and be prepared for a very long day (or 2 if your setting tables up the day before). And dont forget the taking of tables down at the end as more often than not most people have disappeared.
Nothing will change unless people attend the AGM's (AEBBA, Counties, Leagues) and put forward their ideas for discussion. And most important put themselves forward to take an active role in implementing them.
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Post by Q on Feb 21, 2023 12:10:34 GMT
This is all assuming that everyone knows (and uses) ProBoards, or realise that the AEBBA website actually exists.
I've been running the British Bar Billiards group on Facebook for many years, we have over 380 members (andI vet each new members quite carefully to keep out the spammers), I have suggested in the past that entry forms could be added to the 'files' section and the events added to 'events' and publicised on the group but nobody has taken up the offer.
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Post by JB on Feb 21, 2023 13:14:29 GMT
Surely it's the same for every website, Facebook page including yours not just proboards and AEBBA
Proboards have over 800 members this tells me it's the best place for publicising events (along with forms available at other events)
If people want to play in events surely they are intelligent enough to make enquiries and find things out! AEBBA competitions and County Opens are not kept secret and are available to all.
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Post by Q on Feb 21, 2023 13:33:36 GMT
Surely it's the same for every website, Facebook page including yours not just proboards and AEBBA Proboards have over 800 members this tells me it's the best place for publicising events (along with forms available at other events) If people want to play in events surely they are intelligent enough to make enquiries and find things out! AEBBA competitions and County Opens are not kept secret and are available to all. I agree with all that you're saying but my point is that the Facebook option is, and has been available for quite a few years and as yet nobody has taken up the option for a bit of free publicity. Joe Bloggs who wanders into a pub and finds a bar billiards table, play & enjoys the game, wouldn't know Proboards from Adam and certainly would never have heard of AEBBA, but he probably DOES have a Facebook account and may well search for bar billiards on there, he probably wouldn't be interested in playing an Open at that stage but certainly could enjoy knowing that such things exist, and that he can chat about the game to people of all levels, he may then one day attend an Open just to see what it's all about. As the saying goes "from small acorns"
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Post by JB on Feb 21, 2023 14:38:26 GMT
Sorry but From a personal point of view I disagree
If I walked in to a pub and saw a bar billiards table and knew nothing about it and wanted to find out more I would search on the internet. The last place I would think of looking would be Facebook.
Perhaps this is the problem both for change and publicity. Need younger people (bit more into Facebook etc) rather than those of us that are old (talking personally) to actually attend AGM’s get on the Committee and take over some of the workload if they have new ideas for publicity and changes
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 21, 2023 14:41:03 GMT
Some good points made by Jean, it always helps to look at different viewpoints to be able to understand the current position before we can think of making any changes. We are not trying to reinvent the wheel here, only looking to see if we can do more to try to attract some new players to take part in some of the national competitions. A lot of the criticism/talk has been about publicity most of which has been aimed at AEBBA. I can guarantee that there are a hell of a lot more players aware of AEBBA competitions, which are open to all players from affiliated Counties, than were aware of the recent WBBA competition which was mainly invites to people and a few who were told about it by those that had been invited. I am not sure that anyone was being critical about publicity from AEBBA, I think it was more people pointing out that some of the areas of the country (especially the newer leagues) have far more activity on other media sources for information, rather than using the Forum or the AEBBA website. Is that criticism or a suggestion that we could use both methods in the future? I suppose it depends on how you read it. If it is criticism, then the same could certainly be said about the WBBA event with most players being completely unaware that it was taking place, but we could probably say the same about the County Opens and AEBBA Events. I think that the vast majority of players in the country are only really aware of events taking place in their own league and probably look no further than that, whether they access that information from the Forum or a Facebook page. Perhaps the advantage that Facebook offers is that everything added to the page can be seen by everyone that follows it, whereas competition dates and entry forms on the Forum go into their own section of the Forum and may therefore not be seen by everybody unless they are specifically looking for it? Perhaps the only thing that I would take issue with Jean about would be this statement.... It is not the AEBBA’s job to run comps for novice players this surely should be down to the local leagues. .... although I do fully accept the reasoning behind this statement and think it is true that the local leagues are the right place for novice players to start playing in competitions. However, having said that I would also say the the AEBBA Constitution has this as one of the first rules.... 2) The aims of the Association shall be to promote and encourage the playing of Bar Billiards throughout the United Kingdom and particularly by the Organisation of Inter County competition. So, is it right that our National Competitions are run for the 10% of elite players that currently take part, or should we really be looking to try to make these more inclusive (or attractive) for the 90% of players that don't? There is no easy answer to that question. Personally, I think that there are things we could try that may encourage others to participate, but unless we find a way to give them a try then nothing will change. How long will the national tournaments remain viable to run if numbers continue to drop, we have already lost several in the last few years....
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 21, 2023 14:51:20 GMT
If people want to play in events surely they are intelligent enough to make enquiries and find things out! AEBBA competitions and County Opens are not kept secret and are available to all. Only if people are aware of them and I think that many are not.... I was playing in leagues in Sussex for 3 years before I first heard that there were national (or even county) competitions and I think if you asked a majority of players if they knew about them that they would either say no, or would say that they knew very little about them. Most of the "top teams" within Sussex Leagues have players that do take part in Opens, I am sure that they will talk about those with their team mates at their matches so word of mouth plays a big part. Publicity and keeping people informed are so important....
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Post by JB on Feb 21, 2023 15:37:21 GMT
Probably worded that wrong (apologies)
The Challenger competition was introduced for novice and lower ranked players. But this needs more people to get involved in organising, helping and running the day. A lot of work is involved and as usual it is left to a couple of people.
My main point has always been that more people need to get involved both nationally and locally to take some of the workload off the very few people who seem to end up doing everything.
Going back to one of your earlier points AEBBA did have a publicity officer post but when they resigned nobody volunteered to take on the role. Not enough people turning up to AGMs to voice their views and ideas and take some responsibility to help
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