Can we offer more in our National Competitions?

[BB Warrior]

Hello Everyone,

I apologise that this is probably going to be a rather long post to read and appreciate that some people may think that I am being rather controversial or even critical about some of the national competitions that are currently run. If so, I hope that they will understand that is not my intention at all, it is simply my love of the game and the desire to see competitions carrying on in the future and hopefully getting more people to play in these that has prompted this message.

Okay, where to begin.... I think that we all know that numbers of entries have been dropping at nearly all of the county Opens and many of the AEBBA events, this started to happen 6 or 7 years ago and has become even more obvious in the post-Covid era that we are now in. The number of players that used to regularly attend all (or most) of the Opens has dropped to a "hard core" of 30-40 players and the number of "local players" at many events has also dropped meaning that many of the Opens probably now run at a loss once you take into consideration the cost of hiring tables, trophies and any prize money.... how long is that sustainable?

So, how can we encourage more players to take part in our competitions?

Firstly, I appreciate that the County Opens and AEBBA Competitions are really designed to allow the "best players" the opportunity to compete against each other. I do not see anything wrong with that (although perhaps that makes me "elitist") however to enable those to remain financially viable to run, we need more than just the "elite" to enter the competitions.

Over the years, we have seen many players try their luck in a couple of Opens.... and then disappear without being seen again. After all, it isn't much fun making perhaps a 4 or 5 hour journey to play a game, only to be thrashed by a top player and then having a 3 or 4 hour wait for your Plate game only to find another top player waiting for you in that. The regulars at the Opens accept that this can happen and know that, on another day, they could well be doing that to their opponents however for someone entering a tournament for the first time, it could be enough to put them off ever entering again. With the higher concentration of good players (due to less other entries) that chances of having to play a top player in the first round have substantially increased now.

I think that I was probably very lucky when I first entered one of the Opens in Oxford in 2008 and I managed to win my first 2 games that I played. Both were fairly low-scoring scrappy games from what I remember (and looking at scores on AEBBA website), however I had only been playing a couple of years at that stage and my league average was around 4,500 and I think my highest score was only around 9,700, so for me they were normal games. It did come as something of a shock when my next opponent hammered 27,000 points against me! (Thank you Phil Collins! ) It was the first time I had seen anyone play the "split shot" and I remember watching in awe as Keith Sheard and Kevin Tunstall both ran in breaks of 20k plus.... I vowed then that I would learn the split shot!

Had I been on the receiving end of one of those 20k breaks in my first match, I honestly don't know if I would have returned to play in another Open, so I can truly understand why some people have told me that they don't want to play in an Open because they didn't enjoy it.... but is there a way we can change their viewpoint and get them to play? Maybe there is.....

Okay, so now we come to the reason of why I have been prompted to write this post and raise this question.

Last weekend, I took part in a new competition that was being run in Northampton. It was nothing to do with any of the counties or AEBBA and it had received very little publicity beyond Facebook and word of mouth between players. This new competition offered something very different to the Opens and was actually played as 4 separate competitions over the course of the weekend allowing players to play in 2 of those depending on their ability. The "elite" players had their own competition and could also play with the "good" players in the next level down, while at the other end there was one competition for "beginners" and one for "average" players, these different levels of competitions led to many very close games and everybody feeling that they had a chance to do well.

The result of that was simply everyone really enjoyed the weekend and wanted to know when the next competition would be played! Many of the people that took part have either never played in an Open, or tried it once and vowed never to enter again.... To be honest, when I first walked into the room where the competition was to be played, I looked around and saw that I didn't actually know many people that were there, which is unusual as I normally play in all of the competitions and know almost everyone. It was refreshing to meet new people and see how enthusiastic they were about the game.... and it really made me think about how many other players there are in the country who would like the opportunity to play in similar events, but feel they don't have the chance to do that at the moment.

Before I say more, I do appreciate that AEBBA have introduced the "Challenger" Events and these were played in Nottingham (2019) and York (2022) and I totally support those events. It was great to see that the numbers doubled between the first time this was played and the competition last year, with many new players local in those areas taking part in a national competition for the first time. I hope that this event continues this year and proves successful again, however maybe AEBBA should consider running more of these type of competitions throughout the year (one in York, one in Midlands (Nottingham, Northampton) and one in the South to give more players an opportunity to play locally.... after all, it would be a very long journey for a Sussex player to take part in an event in York and would probably be expensive allowing for having to pay for 2 or 3 nights accommodation as well? Just a thought....

I also know that local leagues and counties run their own competitions which allows players to take part in "internal" competitions, so the novice and league players do have competitions that they can play in at the moment.... but playing in larger, national, competitions would probably give some players the opportunity to improve and also meet new people, while also helping to keep the Opens and AEBBA Competitions financially viable to run for years to come.

So, is there a way that "we" (by which I mean the competition playing bar billiard community, not just AEBBA) can find a way to encourage those players to take part, either in their own competitions or in the main competitions that we already offer?

I know that many counties do already play another competition (either internal or open) the day before an Open, Surrey have always held a "fun day" mainly for their league players (it would be nice to see more of those players at the Open as well!), Northants host a 4-pin competition, Sussex have their Masters competition and also host the England v Guernsey International while Oxon run (or used to) the Inter-Area One Day Competition, but are there opportunities for other counties to host another event on their Open weekend?

I have a couple of ideas about that and I am sure that others may also have suggestions, so let me start...

1) More "Challenger" Events throughout the year in different parts of the country, so hopefully that will encourage more new players to take part in competitions. (Possibly these could be played on the day before an Open is played, which may encourage players to make a weekend of it and play in both competitions)
2) In the County Opens, keep the "Main Competition" as it stands but rather than just offering a "Plate" for players that lose their first game, offer 3 different levels of Plate (let's call them "Challenger" (only open to the lowest 8 ranked players in the plate), "Intermediary" (for the next 8 lowest ranked) and "Open Plate" (for everyone else)) to give them a chance to play against people of a similar level. Yes, they would still run the risk of getting thrashed in their first game in the Main Competition, but at least they would know that they will then have chances in other games. It may sound "complicated" and would take a little time for organisers to fit players into the right slots, however the actual running time for a competition with 64 players would work out to be no longer than the current format does.

As I indicated at the beginning, this has turned into a very long post.... but thank you if you have read it all the way through and if you have any thoughts on what I have said or other ideas to promote the game and get more people playing in tournaments, please put them below.

[billiardsmichael]

Some interesting comments Dave, so I thought I'd add my tuppence.

Despite only really starting to play 16 months ago from a personal point of view I want to challenge myself against the best, and the opens are the way to do that. I understand though that fellow newbies may not be quite as crazy/committed (insert appropriate word here) as I am.

So the obvious question is can opens be changed to become more attractive to players who are less interested in playing in the "main". Does this mean the plate could be re-vamped? Or indeed could players opt out of the "main" event and play in a "shield" event? That may be an event you opt in to (instead of the main) targeted at players outside the top 100/200(?) in the rankings. Might need to be flexible in format between groups/knockout but could encourage higher attendance.

Anyway, that's my tuppence - I very much enjoy the opens so, yeh! (Even if I am a terrible loser)

[BB Warrior]

To enable people to have a clearer understanding of how the number of entries have changed over recent years, the table below shows the number of entries for County Opens and other National Tournaments since 2008.  I chose 2008 simply because that is the year that I started playing in the Open Competitions, so this is something that I have seen personally.  I am aware from talking to other players who took part before then, that the number of entries for many competitions were higher than when I started......

This information has been sourced from the AEBBA Website.  

Competition	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022	Total	Rise/Fall
County Opens
Jersey (World Champs)	208	174	164	167	146	144	132	136	144	132	138	135	0	103	116	2039	-92
Kent	69	74	66	68	84	75	66	63	53	40	38	37	0	0	42	775	-42
Surrey	N/A	87	92	93	88	96	91	93	90	60	59	64	0	0	55	968	-41
Guernsey	56	52	55	62	61	61	63	69	67	72	72	79	0	0	76	845	-3
Northants	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	61	61	62	55	0	37	39	315	-23
Sussex	96	107	103	108	92	108	88	89	76	68	71	85	0	0	58	1149	-50
Oxon	93	86	72	72	69	76	76	78	66	58	47	34	55	0	41	923	-52
Bucks	60	61	63	78	75	82	69	80	78	59	64	56	0	0	46	871	-36
Berkshire	65	68	63	49	77	53	56	59	57	46	46	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	639	-77
Portsmouth	99	95	83	81	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	358	-81
TOTALS	746	804	761	778	692	695	641	667	692	596	597	545	55	140	473	8882	-331
Pairs Competitions	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022	Total	Rise/Fall
Jersey (World Pairs)	64	64	64	64	63	61	57	60	64	63	68	64	0	50	55	861	-13
AEBBA Bournemouth	81	67	64	53	54	53	54	64	60	65	53	62	56	47	49	882	-32
Guernsey Pairs	N/A	N/A	N/A	30	28	27	27	32	28	32	32	37	0	0	34	307	-3
AEBBA Mixed Pairs	18	15	12	N/A	21	20	11	16	18	N/A	13	8	0	12	15	179	-6
TOTALS	163	146	140	147	166	161	149	172	170	160	166	171	56	109	153	2229	-19
Other Competitions	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022	Total	Rise/Fall
National Off The Spot	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	62	53	53	46	63	52	43	0	30	40	442	-23
Alternative Rules	40	51	49	38	46	42	28	39	23	27	33	22	0	0	15	453	-36
East Anglia World 4-Pin	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	61	62	48	60	63	64	64	0	0	60	482	-4
Northants AEBBA 4-Pin	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	34	37	40	48	0	20	21	200	-28
AEBBA Challenger Event	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	13	0	0	40	53	27
AEBBA Under 25/30's	7	10	8	11	10	8	5	8	4	9	8	6	0	0	9	103	-2
AEBBA Over 50's	31	30	24	16	31	25	20	29	20	8	24	16	0	24	32	330	1
AEBBA Over 60's	16	20	12	9	21	12	18	22	13	10	22	9	0	0	19	203	-3
British Ladies Singles	20	28	32	29	27	24	20	20	20	16	13	8	0	0	0	257	-32
Special Ladies Singles	20	14	13	16	15	12	8	7	8	7	10	8	0	12	12	162	-8
TOTALS	134	153	138	119	150	246	214	226	228	240	266	237	0	86	248	2685	-18
OVERALL TOTALS	1043	1103	1039	1044	1008	1102	1004	1065	1090	996	1029	953	111	335	874	13796	-229

The final column on the right (Rise/Fall) indicates the difference between the number of entries for the competition in 2022 in comparison to the highest number of entries received by that competition during the period shown.

Unfortunately, during this period we lost the Portsmouth Open in 2011 and the Berkshire Open has not been played since 2018, the British Ladies Singles also does not appear to have been played since 2019.

With the notable exception of the Guernsey Open where numbers have continued to rise (although 2022 was 3 down on the record 79 that took part in 2019), AEBBA Challenger Event (which surely shows that the "lower-ranked" players have an appetite for tournaments where they can be competitive!  ) and the Over 50's (which had the highest number of entries in 2022), all of the other tournaments are at lower levels now than they were 6 years ago.... some alarmingly lower.

Are those competitions in danger of coming to an end if we can't find a way to support them and get more entries? 

[BB Warrior]

Feb 9, 2023 10:11:32 GMT billiardsmichael said:

Some interesting comments Dave, so I thought I'd add my tuppence.

Despite only really starting to play 16 months ago from a personal point of view I want to challenge myself against the best, and the opens are the way to do that. I understand though that fellow newbies may not be quite as crazy/committed (insert appropriate word here) as I am.

So the obvious question is can opens be changed to become more attractive to players who are less interested in playing in the "main". Does this mean the plate could be re-vamped? Or indeed could players opt out of the "main" event and play in a "shield" event? That may be an event you opt in to (instead of the main) targeted at players outside the top 100/200(?) in the rankings. Might need to be flexible in format between groups/knockout but could encourage higher attendance.

Anyway, that's my tuppence - I very much enjoy the opens so, yeh! (Even if I am a terrible loser)

Hi Michael, thank you for your feedback, especially interesting as it gives us the thinking of one of the "newest recruits" to the regular players that enter most of the national tournaments.

You seem to be thinking along a very similar line to some of my thoughts - and you were able to put them far more succinctly than I did (which I am sure will not surprise people!)

I am not sure about people "opting out" of the main event to just play in a "shield" event, it could mean more people attending an "event" overall but, having run competitions myself, the formatting for that may not be easy.

However, a secondary plate (Shield) for the lower ranked players I think would be a workable option as I will show in posts below.

[BB Warrior]

The new West Sussex Open takes place this coming weekend, so it would seem to be a perfect "live" example of how a secondary Plate Competition (in honour of Michael Wilson, I will call in the Shield Competition) could be incorporated for "lower-ranked" players that lose their first game in the Main Competition.

I started by adding the current rankings for all of the entrants and put these on to a spreadsheet, as shown below....

Main Competition - Round 1
Player 1	Ranking	v	Player 2	Ranking
Martin Cole	6	v	Alan Donovan	23
Stuart Carruthers	17	v	Paula Kemsley	256
Paul Sainsbury	9	v	Pete Hickman	406
Ash Harrison	143	v	Nigel Senior	4
Kevin Charlton	141	v	Phil Osborne	8
Tim Cole	406	v	Lorin Clough	57
Caroline Jones	185	v	Melissa Beach	328
Curt Driver	5	v	Bryan Stevens	90
Pete Sainsbury	47	v	Matt Jones	2
Dawn Jordan	49	v	Gerry Fitzjohn	11
Joe Oakley	10	v	Barry Holt	176
Bob Hall	21	v	Michael Wilson	96
Jaqui Fitzwilliam	328	v	Peter Soanes	119
Matt Knight	12	v	Tony Jenner	40
Mark Woodland	406	v	Michelle Baden	69
Jon Gillespie	406	v	Dave Ingram	8
Laura Cole	357	v	Sam Elson	406
Martin Kemsley	139	v	Trevor Fitzwilliam	198
Mark James	20	v	Daniel Wheal	241
Chris Cox	34	v	Dave Constable	59
Cliff Slade	39	v	Gary Powell	35
Jim Balchin	76	v	Ernie Jordan	29
Kyle Ingram	50	v	Rick Cunningham	53
Ian Cross	406	v	Gary Ridley	60
Dave Jones (Sur)	36	v	Joe Elleson	46
Haydn Ingram	406	v	Gareth Cornford	406
Abbey Balchin	262	v	James Whittle	43
Bye		v	Hannah Cole	406
Kevin Tunstall	3	v	Bye
Bye		v	Bob Osborne	55
Krystal Beck	310	v	Bye
Bye		v	Martin Smith	13

[BB Warrior]

I then applied the "Bookies Favourite" principal that the higher ranked player "won" their match in the first round (although we all know that does not always happen) and so put those players through to the 2nd Round of the Main competition, as shown below....

Main Competition - Round 2 (Last 32)
Player 1	Ranking	v	Player 2	Ranking
Martin Cole	6	v
Stuart Carruthers	17
Paul Sainsbury	9	v
			Nigel Senior	4
		v	Phil Osborne	8
			Lorin Clough	57
Caroline Jones	185	v
Curt Driver	5
		v	Matt Jones	2
			Gerry Fitzjohn	11
Joe Oakley	10	v
Bob Hall	21
		v	Peter Soanes	119
Matt Knight	12
		v	Michelle Baden	69
			Dave Ingram	8
Laura Cole	357	v
Martin Kemsley	139
Mark James	20	v
Chris Cox	34
		v	Gary Powell	35
			Ernie Jordan	29
Kyle Ingram	50	v
			Gary Ridley	60
Dave Jones (Sur)	36	v
			Gareth Cornford	406
		v	James Whittle	43
			Hannah Cole	406
Kevin Tunstall	3	v
			Bob Osborne	56
Krystal Beck	310	v
			Martin Smith	13

I apologise that this may not make it very clear exactly who is playing who, I have simply left the players in their original draw positions to follow the draw as it would normally do.....

[BB Warrior]

The players that "lost" their first round match (on the basis of ranking) were then divided.  All players were kept in their original positions and those with a ranking higher than 200 went into the "Plate Competition", which then would give us the following matches.....

Plate Competition - Round 1 (Last 16)
Player 1	Ranking	v	Player 2	Ranking
		v	Alan Donovan	23
Ash Harrison	143
Kevin Charlton	141	v
			Bryan Stevens	90
Pete Sainsbury	47	v
Dawn Jordan	49
		v	Barry Holt	176
			Michael Wilson	96
			Tony Jenner	40
		v
			Trevor Fitzwilliam	198
		v	Dave Constable	59
Cliff Slade	39
Jim Balchin	76	v
		v	Rick Cunningham	53
			Joe Elleson	46
		v
			Bob Osborne	56

Again, I apologise if the presentation above does not make it clear who is playing who, I have tried to put the "v" in a position that will show that but my main aim was to show that the original draw was still being used....

[BB Warrior]

The remaining players that had "lost" their first game and had a ranking higher than 200 were then placed into the "Challenger Shield" Competition, the draw for which would look as follows....

Challenger Shield - Round 1 (Last 16)
Player 1	Ranking	v	Player 2	Ranking
		v	Paula Kemsley	256
			Pete Hickman	406
		v
Tim Cole	406	v
			Melissa Beach	328
Jaqui Fitzwilliam	328
		v
Mark Woodland	406
Jon Gillespie	406	v
			Sam Elson	406
		v	Daniel Wheal	241
Ian Cross	406	v
		v
Haydn Ingram	406
Abbey Balchin	262	v
Bye		v	Hannah Cole	406
Krystal Beck	310	v	Bye

[BB Warrior]

I would be very interested in knowing the thoughts of others on this idea.... especially from those that run the County Opens and also from those that choose not to play in them?

Could a format like this be workable (I have looked at a format that says it could based on tables and times, but I have not looked into the detail of actually implementing playing tables yet) for those that run the competitions and would something like this encourage those that don't take part at the moment to try entering a few competitions?

Over to you guys....

[tommo III]

Just for the record, the concept has been tried before, under the umbrella of a normal County Open, but has not been persevered with since  (pity !)

The Kent Classics of 1996, 1997 and 1999 included a "Kent Minnows" (a young Lorin Clough won it in 1999 !)
It was tried again in 2018: Entry was invited for players outside the Top 50 of AEBBA rankings and was won by Bryan Stevens - as noted in this thread:
barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/20866/kent-open-draw

[Chris_Sav]

Yes Les Green and I started the Kent Minnows for players outside the top 50, we also ran some of the first plates and I started alt rules, all to give the non superstars a game and enjoyment for their money.

Personally I retired from national based three pin and took up four pin, partly to help a fledgling open, partly for the cut and thrust of four pin bar billiards, no travelling a hundred miles and paying to sit in your seat for twenty minutes, and partly for the camaraderie that exists in that game.

[joefoxon]

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

[bobhall]

Feb 10, 2023 15:55:06 GMT joefoxon said:

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

I started playing billiards and I learnt alot more by having people hit 20k past me on multiple occasions as I watched how they played and looked to see what I was doing wrong the more you play the better you will get. You are not going to get better playing against players that cannot hit a straight 50

[billiardsmichael]

Feb 10, 2023 15:55:06 GMT joefoxon said:

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

Nottingham Open 👀👀

[joefoxon]

Feb 10, 2023 16:02:35 GMT bobhall said:

Feb 10, 2023 15:55:06 GMT joefoxon said:

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

I started playing billiards and I learnt alot more by having people hit 20k past me on multiple occasions as I watched how they played and looked to see what I was doing wrong the more you play the better you will get. You are not going to get better playing against players that cannot hit a straight 50

You're only going to learn anything from that if you actually get the opportunity to play the shots yourself. An eight hour round trip isn't really worth the effort just to watch someone else play bar billiards for 34 minutes. Your reward for turning up then becomes a single-leg plate match where if you're lucky, you're not against the loser of "England player v England player".

Nottingham Open would be a fantastic idea, if we could get the support for it!

[tommo III]

Put me down for a Notts Open if ever one gets off the ground. I'd love the opportunity to visit Nottingham, never been there. 

[dillon]

Feb 10, 2023 15:55:06 GMT joefoxon said:

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

Not wishing to wind anyone up here but if it takes 4 hours to get from Northampton to Sussex then I would suggest selling the milk float and buying a car! 

[bobhall]

Feb 10, 2023 17:28:04 GMT dillon said:

Feb 10, 2023 15:55:06 GMT joefoxon said:

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

Not wishing to wind anyone up here but if it takes 4 hours to get from Northampton to Sussex then I would suggest selling the milk float and buying a car! 

If I remember correctly they are nottingham and not Northampton

[bobhall]

Feb 10, 2023 16:14:01 GMT joefoxon said:

Feb 10, 2023 16:02:35 GMT bobhall said:

I started playing billiards and I learnt alot more by having people hit 20k past me on multiple occasions as I watched how they played and looked to see what I was doing wrong the more you play the better you will get. You are not going to get better playing against players that cannot hit a straight 50

You're only going to learn anything from that if you actually get the opportunity to play the shots yourself. An eight hour round trip isn't really worth the effort just to watch someone else play bar billiards for 34 minutes. Your reward for turning up then becomes a single-leg plate match where if you're lucky, you're not against the loser of "England player v England player".

Nottingham Open would be a fantastic idea, if we could get the support for it!

Happened to me I remember I played Curt once 20k I was down and then my break off straight away and another 19-20k put past me but I guarantee you I was cheering him on all the way and supporting non stop but that’s the kind of player I am I will support you take the good with the bad it’s a day out spending with friends and playing the game if lucky enough too

[BB Warrior]

Feb 10, 2023 9:27:33 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Yes Les Green and I started the Kent Minnows for players outside the top 50, we also ran some of the first plates and I started at rules, all to give the non superstars a game and enjoyment for their money.

Personally I retired from national based three pin and took up four pin, partly to help a fledgling open, partly for the cut and thrust of four pin bar billiards, no travelling a hundred miles and paying to sit in your seat for twenty minutes, and partly for the camaraderie that exists in that game.

An interesting bit of history and a couple of good points made by Sav, that ties in exactly with some of the things that I was told by some of the people at the new competition that was played last weekend.

[BB Warrior]

Feb 10, 2023 15:55:06 GMT joefoxon said:

Quite a big draw of these competitions, other than giving lower-ranked and unranked players a shot is that for the newer leagues among us, the events are being held the "right side" of London for us to be able to travel to. I appreciate that the large majority of the elite players are based in and around the south coast, but if you're serious about wanting the lower ranked players to take part, then why not save them the four hour one way trip to get a 20k break put past them before they even get a shot?

Hi Joe, thank you for your post, it is great to hear the view of someone from one of the newer leagues in the UK.

I am sure that you are aware that there are a number of Open Competitions that are held on the "wrong side" (for us Sussex boys) of London and therefore nearer to you.... The Northants Open would be nearest, that is normally played in May but I think they are now looking to play it later in the year. The Oxon Open (8th July) and Bucks Open in August would be the next nearest for Nottingham players and then there are the AEBBA Competitions (in Bucks) played during September and October, so it would be great to see some of your players giving those a try.

[BB Warrior]

Feb 10, 2023 16:02:35 GMT bobhall said:

I started playing billiards and I learnt alot more by having people hit 20k past me on multiple occasions as I watched how they played and looked to see what I was doing wrong the more you play the better you will get. You are not going to get better playing against players that cannot hit a straight 50

Hi Bob, I see the point you are making here and it is true that if you play with better players that your game will usually improve, however I can't see how a comparatively new player will get any benefit from watching someone smash 20k past them?

The "elite" players have spent years fine tuning their game to be able to adapt to a table. So much of our game (at the highest level) is all about pace, touch, putting side on the ball and leaving a ball in the right position to make the next shot easier and those are all things that a comparative newcomer will not be able to see, no matter how closely they may try to watch one of the top players.

I think it would be fair for me to say that you, as I did, spent several years playing in the local leagues around Sussex before you started to play in Opens? You obviously had the benefit that both your Mum and Dad played at a good level, as did your older brother so you had people to play with who knew the game when you started and probably helped you to learn the right shots to play.

My advice to any "new player" that wants to improve would be to practice, practice and practice. Learn the basic shots, until they become second nature and then practice them some more. Find out which shots work for you and, if you have the opportunity, talk to "better players" and ask them for advice. Nearly all of the "elite" players will be happy to try help you if you ask, that was certainly my experience when I first started playing in better teams and entering the Opens.

Even now, I still ask for advice if I am struggling for form and I will ask people to watch me play and see if they can see what I am doing wrong or could do better.... and yes, I still practice, practice and practice....

[BB Warrior]

Feb 10, 2023 16:14:01 GMT joefoxon said:

You're only going to learn anything from that if you actually get the opportunity to play the shots yourself. An eight hour round trip isn't really worth the effort just to watch someone else play bar billiards for 34 minutes. Your reward for turning up then becomes a single-leg plate match where if you're lucky, you're not against the loser of "England player v England player".

Nottingham Open would be a fantastic idea, if we could get the support for it!

Joe, I am sure that if you decided to run a Nottingham Open then you would get a lot of support for that from many of the players that travel round to play in the other opens during the year, you would probably find that you would also get entries from players who don't normally play in the Opens any more, because everyone likes to try something new.

Firstly, you would need to find a venue that would be big enough to hold 8 tables and still have some room around it to allow people to either watch the games or sit down and relax.  Obviously, it would need to have a bar as well.... 

Bearing in mind the travelling distance for players from the South (you know, the wrong side of London!), most would probably look to come up for the weekend so a venue that is somewhere near to hotels would be ideal, and it could be a good idea to run some kind of "fun competition" (Triples, teams, handicaps?) on the Saturday which would not only be a good way to encourage some of your Nottingham players to take part in the weekend but would also help raise some extra money towards the cost of hiring the tables to run the competition. 

There are a number of people here on the forum that are used to running these types of competitions and I am sure that they would be happy to give you a format to use to run the competition and there are also people that would probably be happy to help setting the tables up to enable them to play well - that may sound simple, but please believe that it is not that easy to get it right.

You are more than welcome to message me and I will be happy to help as much as I can.  Dave

[BB Warrior]

Feb 10, 2023 17:28:04 GMT dillon said:

Not wishing to wind anyone up here but if it takes 4 hours to get from Northampton to Sussex then I would suggest selling the milk float and buying a car! 

Ah, Jim.... I had forgotten that you changed your name to "James Hunt" when you got behind the wheel of your car!

On a good day, it takes me between 3.5 and 4 hours to get to Nottingham from here in Brighton, that's avoiding peak time traffic and assuming no accidents or roadworks. On a day when the M25 and M1 are in their (usual) bad mood, you could easily double that and still not get there....

As for winding people up, you do that every time you wear one of your lovely shirts!

Now, where did I leave my

[BB Warrior]

Feb 10, 2023 18:08:28 GMT bobhall said:

Happened to me I remember I played Curt once 20k I was down and then my break off straight away and another 19-20k put past me but I guarantee you I was cheering him on all the way and supporting non stop but that’s the kind of player I am I will support you take the good with the bad it’s a day out spending with friends and playing the game if lucky enough too

It happens to all of the top players sometimes, more often normally than when a top player is playing against a beginner. The top players all accept it and know that, on another day, they will do the same back to that player - it's all part of the game.

But, I think the majority of top players will be reluctant to knock in huge scores in both legs against new players (or, I would like to think they would be), yes they would want to do enough to make sure they win the game and get their game "going" for tougher matches ahead, but I also think that most of them would give their opponent plenty of table time once they have done that.

[Chris_Sav]

Feb 10, 2023 20:57:10 GMT BB Warrior said:

But, I think the majority of top players will be reluctant to knock in huge scores in both legs against new players (or, I would like to think they would be), yes they would want to do enough to make sure they win the game and get their game "going" for tougher matches ahead, but I also think that most of them would give their opponent plenty of table time once they have done that.

Not the case so long as there are prizes for highest break. We lost two of our regulars to Jersey when the wife of a player had to sit and watch nearly 20k put past her in a single legger.

High break prizes are the worst incentive for taking advantage of a weaker player

[bobhall]

Feb 11, 2023 8:59:17 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Feb 10, 2023 20:57:10 GMT BB Warrior said:

But, I think the majority of top players will be reluctant to knock in huge scores in both legs against new players (or, I would like to think they would be), yes they would want to do enough to make sure they win the game and get their game "going" for tougher matches ahead, but I also think that most of them would give their opponent plenty of table time once they have done that.

Not the case so long as there are prizes for highest break. We lost two of our regulars to Jersey when the wife of a player had to sit and watch nearly 20k put past her in a single legger.

High break prizes are the worst incentive for taking advantage of a weaker player

One way round that would be high break for 1/4 onwards then that way it doesn’t matter but then you also have the player that will kill a game off in first visit and then the other player will still moan so no win win ever people need to just accept the fact I am sorry but the majority of the people that moan don’t practice enough and don’t try to learn

[Chris_Sav]

Feb 11, 2023 12:11:32 GMT bobhall said:

One way round that would be high break for 1/4 onwards then that way it doesn’t matter but then you also have the player that will kill a game off in first visit and then the other player will still moan so no win win ever people need to just accept the fact I am sorry but the majority of the people that moan don’t practice enough and don’t try to learn

And that attitude is one of the principal reasons virtually no one who takes up our game stays with it unless they themselves are talented with a cue. Do you expect your wife to practice bar billiards when she hardly gets a go and gets mullered if she enters a competition? maybe she has reached the peak of her abilities and just wants a game and is supporting the competition - not for long I'm afraid to say.

[bobhall]

Feb 11, 2023 12:33:04 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Feb 11, 2023 12:11:32 GMT bobhall said:

One way round that would be high break for 1/4 onwards then that way it doesn’t matter but then you also have the player that will kill a game off in first visit and then the other player will still moan so no win win ever people need to just accept the fact I am sorry but the majority of the people that moan don’t practice enough and don’t try to learn

And that attitude is one of the principal reasons virtually no one who takes up our game stays with it unless they themselves are talented with a cue. Do you expect your wife to practice bar billiards when she hardly gets a go and gets mullered if she enters a competition?

Oh I didn’t realise that was the only game she played oh wait it wouldn’t be plus it’s the world championships you are talking about and if I remember rightly you on quite a few occasions would have put in big scores and didn’t give your opponent a shot. And I’m sorry but I practiced hard played in lots of leagues to get better I used to play 5-6 times a week when I could so

[BB Warrior]

Feb 11, 2023 12:11:32 GMT bobhall said:

One way round that would be high break for 1/4 onwards then that way it doesn’t matter but then you also have the player that will kill a game off in first visit and then the other player will still moan so no win win ever people need to just accept the fact I am sorry but the majority of the people that moan don’t practice enough and don’t try to learn

And here you can see exactly why so many people no longer enter the Opens and National Tournaments, they simply don't enjoy spending their time and money to travel for several hours and then sit there watching someone else play, wait around for a few more hours and then have the same happen to them in the Plate.... so, they just don't bother entering.

Yes, sometimes we do see some "surprise" results and you only have to look at the quarter-finalists at the West Sussex Open competition played yesterday to see that can happen.... but, in most of the Opens that is very unusual.

My personal opinion is that unless we can offer something that means that more players can have a competition in which they have a better opportunity to ENJOY playing some games, we will end up in the situation that the Opens simply become glorified Grand Prix competitions in which only the "top players" will bother to enter. This will then mean that the competitions are no longer financially viable to run, so how long can the be sustained....?

Last year, Oxon (41), Kent (42) and Bucks (46) barely covered the cost of the table hire from the number of entries, I would imagine that all 3 lost money once the cost of trophies and prize money is included, although raffle income may have helped them to break even. Let's hope that the number of entries goes up this year....

But, I go back to my original question.... how can we encourage more people to take part and play in the national competitions?