Are these Leagues still going ?

Use this thread to enquire on the health of a fondly- remembered League which may or may not be in existence.

I'll start it off.

1. Crawley League (Sussex). Sadly no more. I had three enjoyable seasons there 1977-80. The last six teams remaining were accepted into the Horsham League in the mid-eighties.

2. Portslade League (Sussex). Also dissolved. Players performed to high standard on the county stage, winning Interleague more than once and providing Sussex Champions like John Sullivan, Steve and Doug Page, the Mehr brothers and Mick Ingram. When League disbanded the budding youngsters (Jim Millward, Gary Ridley etc) went to play in Brighton or Worthing.

3. Hastings and Bexhill League (Sussex). Not much is heard of this these days. As far as I know they're not affiliated to the SCBBA. Is the League still running ?

4. Maidstone and District League (Kent). Has dwindled somewhat and no longer affiliated to the Kent Bar Billiards Association. Still in existence, though.

5. Winchester League (Hants) and
6. Andover League (Hants). There are accounts on this Forum - notably from Yorkshire Terrier and Keith MacDonald - about when these leagues were thriving and they had some great players.
But have these leagues now disappeared ? To the uninitiated like myself, any talk nowadays of bar billiards in Hampshire just means Portsmouth.

Please add your input. This is all part of the history of our noble game !

[NigelS]

tommo said:

1. Crawley League (Sussex). Sadly no more. I had three enjoyable seasons there 1977-80. The last six teams remaining were accepted into the Horsham League in the mid-eighties.

[/i][/quote]

Did you ever play my dad Tommo? He started playing in the Crawley League. Not sure of the years though will have to ask him.

May well have done, Nigel. I believe he played for the Downsman ?

Brighton actually cobbled together a side (including Dave Lewes, Dave Elliott, Tupps, Harry Leeson) and played from the Prince of Wales, East Grinstead as their base.

John Turner was the top player then, the man everyone feared. I played for his team at the Brewery Shades, and we beat the Prince of Wales to the title by one single point. But that was only after Harry Leeson was sacked from the Prince for a petulant outburst one night, and we snapped him up to play for us in the second half, whereupon he won all his games ! ;D

[Mark James]

I played in the Portslade League during it's final few seasons.

In fact, in retrospect I probably played the very last shot in Portslade bar billiards history, as I won the 1985 singles (v Paul Kelly), which was the last match at the last-ever Finals Night. This took place in the Stadium back-room.

I'm pretty sure that Jim Millward & Gary Ridley had already left the Portslade League by this time. The dominant team in the latter years were the Ham, Worthing. They had an unbeaten run of something like 65 matches in league & cup, and their squad included Ian Lelliott, Peter Rourke & Pete O'Brien, also John Symington I recall.

My own team were the Romans, captained by John Buss, and my team mates were Dave Cook, Ernie Oliver, Terry Stapleton (back playing again now) and Dennis Valardo. There was also a team at the Cricketers, Portslade, who included the late Dave Rider amongst their members.

The Norfolk, Worthing had a team (Brian Richards played there I think?), also the Empire Club, Lancing, and the Mile Oak & Blue Anchor were also represented.

I don't know if any records of the league remain. I gave the singles trophy to Steve Mariner some years ago, and I know that he has looked after it well, although I remember that the engraving had fallen badly out of date in the years before I won it. The last league secretary was Gus Nunnelly, who would be known to several contributors to this forum, I wonder if he would have any more information?

[NigelS]

tommo said:

May well have done, Nigel. I believe he played for the Downsman ?

I'll ask him who he played for, but knowing him it is more likely that you remember where he played than he does :)

[davejones]

I also have good memories of the Portslade League.

The inter league teams were very strong as Mark said.

The C league (division 3 now) started by Portslade. Ron Pettit chairman at the time and myself suggested it when we were both on the Sussex committee.

It was originally meant for under 23 years old players and new players.

As well as the teams Mark has said there were the Crabtree Lancing, Henfield Club, Royal Oak, Poynings, Fox & Hounds (Small Dole) among others.

[keithmacdonald]

When I first started playing seriously (some people would say I never did!) in the mid 1970's Hampshire had four main centres, Andover with two leagues, Portsmouth with at least three and a Ladies league, Southampton and Winchester also with three leagues. We used to have inter leagues matches at A, B and C level (seven a side) and some ladies matches.
Most of you would remember Arthur Bedford (who was County Chairman for years) and Reg Mennell, both of whom helped to keep the county side going for years. I had the honour to be county secretary for a number of years but like a number of leagues teams dwindled to now, as you say, only Portsmouth survives.
Hampshire had a number of very good players and even one from Winchester who plyed for England who's name escapes me!!!!!

Unfortunately this thread could be one of the longest!!

Keith

That's quite a distressing tale, Keith, how 75% of Hampshire's leagues have been eradicated.
One would have thought that a merger might have been arranged between, say, Andover and Winchester - or Winchester and Southampton to at least allow one to survive.

A tragedy on a similar scale to the loss of bar billiards in Hertfordshire and Leicestershire.

[Pete S]

Tommo

If you speak to Sav I am sure he will confirm that the Canterbury league had over 100 teams about 15 years ago but has been defunct for at least 8 !!

Well Pete, that's a tragedy of epic proportions.
What caused 500+ people to give up playing bar billiards ?

- getting perpetually thrashed by Sav ?
- loss of venues and fruitless search in finding suitable new one ?
- the mafiosi ?
- players getting too old and crotchety ?
- drink/driving laws too stringent ? (after all, there are an awful lot of p!$$heads in Kent. ;D )
- pubs getting too expensive ? (don't hear of many social clubs in Kent but there are an awful lot in Sussex)

Answers on a postcard, please.

[Chris_Sav]

Canterbury had 108 teams at it's zenith

We are all fighting the decline, but Canterbury never saw it coming. The league was always run for the benefit of the top players. For example players were placed at matches, so the weakest member of the away team got thrown in as number one every week, pretty soon he preferred to stay home.

By the time they saw the light it was too late, players who had given up could not be convinced that the league had changed.

The rest of the decline of the local pub we all know about.

Faversham was a smaller league, but that died around the same time as Canterbury.

Maidstone were hanging on by their finger tips last I heard.

Tunbrige Wells and Medway are in single figures.

My own league is now starting to struggle,

Now Kent is a pale shadow of the great days when Brian Wood, Chas Jones, Chris Grimmett, Kevin Clarke, Mick Lingham, Rob Wood, Paul Highstead, Ken Foster, Malcolm Hubbard to name a few, were members of a county side that would rival any. The ladies boasted Jan Taylor, Gay Austin, Debbie Price, Helen Austin, Viv Wright plus others in a side that would hold its own aginst many of the mens county sides today.

twenty five years ago there were over 200 league bar billiard teams in Kent, with players fighting to get a game each week, now there are less than thirty and few of those have five players.

Bar Billiards Ltd's latest move on table rentals is going to cost us teams as we are on the extremity.

My feeling is we won't need a county secretary for much longer.

Anyone want to buy a Jelkes table or eight?? ;D

Sav.

Thanks Sav,
That does not make good reading and I am absolutely stunned.

I would imagine that it was very difficult for you to put that into words, and also frustrating witnessing the implosion of a League from close quarters without being able to do naff all about it.

The questions now are, has anything been learned from it, and what if anything can be done to avoid similar happening in the future ?

The leagues of Sussex and Oxfordshire can consider themselves very lucky, with such a wealth of interest, although someone did say to me the other day that even the mighty Brighton League is shrinking on an alarming scale.

[Hon Vice President (R.I.P.)]

Lucky in principle, but as far as West Sussex goes, continuity has arguably been at the expense of progress!! (In my humble view as outgoing Chair - after some 25 years on the committee, and not being able to commit to playing or administering from Widget, I have snuck orft!)

The WSBBL teams stretch geographically from Havant (In Hampshire ironically) to the west, where the Langstone Conservative Club ply their trade - Hants is also home to two or three other members, by the way, through to the Selsey Peninsula and east to Smallhampton - which, as we know hosts its own league; three of these teams also play in West Sussex.

We cannot raise an inter-league side; new teams are fine as long as they are able to play all their games at home... round trips in excess of 45 miles do tend to put some potential newcomers off. OR put another way; Inter League is a faff because it requires the elite to spend much of Sunday pootling around Sussex and Kent; and unless someone from a new team is prepared to be a nominated driver, actually getting around the league seems to be too much trouble!

We still manage to run our competition weekend - and fill a weekend doing so, but the number of entrants is dwindling.

Perhaps the most alarming downward trend is that which allows the players to give something back - our presentation night some 20 years ago required a ballroom and attracted up to 120 people. This year, based upon an attendance in excess of 70 for the first time in ages, we decided to splash out a little. Fewer than 45 people attended and the event cost the league money.

Our annual Masters Competition is in danger - because the top-16 ranked players in the league (At whom it is aimed) do not support it. We have tried down the years to make the league competitive, without favouring the better players - a contradiction maybe, but in league games, breaks are weighted in favour of teams from lower divisions. A good player will generally prevail even if he or she has to potter about a bit to get the break back. Perversely, any argument in favour of levelling the playing field get shouted down at the AGM.

We stress the friendly nature of the league; there is no real rivalry between players - probably at the detriment of the game in our area. While we have members of the Sussex 20k club; the score required to win the highest home or away break trophy is lower now than previously. Breaks in excess of 15k are rare; between 10 & 12 will probably win you a pot.

Finally, and probably most fatally - we appear to have adopted the course of least resistance; teams have developed the habit of re-arranging games in league or cup competitions, simply because their start player is off playing golf somewhere; or has got a day at the races. The overriding fear is of pissing some team or indivisual off to the extent that they start muttering into their collective pint-pots and mosey off to do something else with their Wednesday evenings.

We still have around a dozen keen and committed pubs / clubs. For how much longer is anyone's guess!

Mr Doom & Gloom - just put it down to middle aged angst ;)

[NigelS]

nigels said:

tommo said:

1. Crawley League (Sussex). Sadly no more. I had three enjoyable seasons there 1977-80. The last six teams remaining were accepted into the Horsham League in the mid-eighties.



Did you ever play my dad Tommo? He started playing in the Crawley League. Not sure of the years though will have to ask him.

Having asked my dad you probably did not play my dad Tommo - he said he played late in the 60's

Thanks for the research, Nigel. When your dad was playing Crawley League, I was starting out in the Horsham League and three of my teammates were John Slee, Dick Cable and Micky Fairs's dad.

Would like to add that Honchair bumped this thread and gave us an interesting insight in to the current position of the West-Sussex league. He's now off to the Isle of Wight and we wish him well.

[Hon Vice President (R.I.P.)]

You can't get shot of me that easily! ;)

There will be guest appearances; and I'll be popping up in Maidstone on business in early August, so if there are any tables left in the area, the name of a pub or two would me muchly welcome :D

[Chris_Sav]

Anchor & Hope, Swan - Sutton Valence and the Allington Club are the core of the Maidstone League, though the secretary tells me it is not certain they will continue this September.

Sav.

pj said:

Tommo

If you speak to Sav I am sure he will confirm that the Canterbury league had over 100 teams about 15 years ago but has been defunct for at least 8 !!

Well, following this Sav did indeed give an insight into the demise of the Canterbury League.

Not on a par quite with the dead sea scrolls, but I've just turned up a piece of paper from 20 years ago which invited entries to the "National Bar Billiards Association Individual Off-the-Spot" competition.
Entry was via one of the four main operating companies in the UK, only two of which continue to operate to this day:
1. Ken Hussey of Bar Billiards Ltd, Ascot, Berks;
2. Ralph Tarratt of Tarratt Tables, Horsham, Sussex;

and then there were :
3. Mr M.Fisher of Bar Billiards (Kent), Canterbury, Kent; and
4. Mr M.Leach of Bar Billiards (Northern), Darwen, Lancs.
(Very unlikely Mr Leach was our own 'Professor' ;) )

To me, this provides a missing piece of the jigsaw of our game's history.
As a generalisation, Bar Billiards Ltd operate Jelkes tables;
Tarratts operate SAMs Brothers tables;
Bar Billiards (Kent) operated Jelkes tables 'converted' to look like SAMs;
& Bar Billiards (Northern) must have operated a motley array of non-standard tables including Riley/Burroughs & Watts and Narrow SAMs. (Usually tables being sold on eBay from oop North tend to have four pins or mushrooms.)

[Colemanator]

I've seen 4 pin tables which are not narrow but are jelkes unlike the Wboro tables which are all narrow.

[petetheplumber]

the Wellingborough tables ain't narrow they are wider than the three pin tables correct dimensions to follow watch this space.

[mikedaw1985]

Yes the Hastings and Bexhill league is still going. Although there are no teams left from Bexhill. I have started a thread about the Hastings league.

[alanbygone (R.I.P.)]

Portslade league..Brian Richards did play for the Norfolk and was in the team that won the Sussex interleague, the final being played at a club almost on the beach at Rustington or it may be Angmering, any BB historians know who they beat and when.

Hi Alan,
Welcome to the Forum.

A good bit of nostalgia and I can recall Interleague days when you played for Worthing and I for Horsham.

It was sad that we lost the Portslade League - and Crawley League too, round about the same time, but at least Sussex hasn't lost any more and still has the ten other leagues still going. Other counties have not been so lucky.

The beach-side venue to which you referred by the way is the Beach Hotel, Littlehampton which was quite near to the County Club where we used to hold SCBBA meetings. Sadly the Beach Hotel was pulled down some years ago. I have fond memories of the place - but not of that dodgy left hand 50 hole! ;D :-/

[Chris_Sav]

Old thread now locked but kept for historic interest