Different games - Pt 2 - Bagatelle

If we think that 4-pin is an 'ethnic minority' version of bar billiards, then even more so must be Bagatelle,  which requires an equivalent set of skills - off cushion play, and potting into cups rather than holes.

Played on long narrow tables, there's an article on it here:

www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=119227

I was fascinated to learn of a thriving league in Chester (and a not-so-thriving one in Coventry !) and here is a link to their excellent website:

www.chesterbagatelle.co.uk/

They even share some of their terminology with us, and there are some hilarious additions which I hadn't heard before !

www.btinternet.com/~bagatelle/terminology.htm

Interesting pictures of a bagatelle table restoration up to league standard:

www.btinternet.com/~bagatelle/bagatelle_table_restored.htm

nice link showing the Chester venues, includes a really nice surprise: ;) ;D

www.btinternet.com/~bagatelle/pubs.htm

Mention of how they play the game in Coventry ("southern rules"):

www3.bell.net/max-com/bagatelle.html

Official Rules, and mention of a league in Cardiff:

www.billiardsforum.info/pool-rules/english-bagatelle-rules.asp

[Carls421]

That right! Bagatelle is the game that was formed after Billiard Russe (or Russian Billiards) now known as 4-Pin Bar Billiards then 3-Pin Bar Billiards was formed in the 1930s

First of all, an old photo of a game being enjoyed in a Bristol pub:

www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/3474073555/

now a link to James Masters page on Bagatelle (definitive information):
www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Bagatelle.htm


......and now something shocking:
www.andythornton.com/en-UK/products/architectural-antiques/original-decor/atvmbrg0120/bar-billiards-table
- shocking, not only for the fact that it's being advertised for sale as a bar billiards table, but also because of the price for one in that condition (- and only 6ft in length)!

Choice of 2 here for £60 apiece, but they're not in very good condition (One's an 8ft and one's a 6ft):

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SNOOKER-BAGATELLE-BAR-BILLIARDS-MAHOGANY-TABLE-/330626384364?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item4cfade41ec

I have seen similar on Antiques Roadshow, and they can command good prices, after all they're genuine antiques.


This one is nicer, in great condition, but it's only a half-size 4ft (=dinky toy): (no takers @ £50)

cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290620645367


Next one I show you will be the "mutt's nuts" ;)

Okay, here's some photos of the genuine article, tommo's recently acquired purchase:




As it is full length (8ft when unfolded), the plans are to use it out in the garden in the spring and summer. But first I need to master the Rules !

Have already had a go, and can occupy the middle and end pockets, but not the nearby ones. :-/

Crawley Bagatelle League has its founder member. 8-)

View when folded up (which takes a matter of seconds).......




Would be interested to know what sort of reserve Stormin' would put on it.........and any idea of its age.

[Sir Chancelot]

Have seen quite a few versions of these in my time .Wish I had bought a few now.
I'm a bit worried about the top as it looks too new.
Could be a replacement ?

It has some slight imperfections, Stormin', which add to its authenticity. Has a broken latch, missing key, and as usual with hinged stuff of that era, a hook and eyelet fastener, but the hook being missing. The wood looks magnificent and is genuine. The cups too:

[Sir Chancelot]

It certainly looks genuine although probably new baize and French Polished.

Do you have all the right equipment ? :-X

Ill put it another way the correct balls ? :-[ :-[

The original pusher thing ? :-[ :-[ :-[

Oct 26, 2011 16:39:23 GMT Sir Chancelot said:

It certainly looks genuine although probably new baize and French Polished.

Would agree with that, which I see as a plus, as a lot of these are lying in attics or outhouses gathering dust and/or woodworm.

At present I am using a light set of bar billiards balls (those on my bb table seem somehow heavier !), but of course the correct ones would be slightly smaller in diameter.

Some of these earlier tables have a wooden arch thingy, for the balls to score extra by going 'through the hoops' rather like as in croquet - but I don't have that either.

The table is however of the dimensions that would make it suitable for adding turned legs as shown in the link to the Chester League site - and it could well end up there one day! :-/

[Sir Chancelot]

Will keep an eye out for the correct balls for you Tommo :o

Cheers Norman,

Round about next May (Guernsey time) will be when I'll first need them. ;)

A YouTube demonstration on how the game is played:



The rules look mighty complicated !



........and the Mississippi version, which requires the set of arches:

One like mine (though not as good !) being sold here, one and a half days to go:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110790211485

Where the vendor says 'Vase' she means 'Baize'.

So far the bid is only £21, antique value alone would be upwards of £100.

Questions for anyone interested enough to ask:
1) What are the dimensions? It looks to me like the full-sized version which opens out to 8ft long.
2) Are there any accessories to go with it? doesn't look like any balls or cues are included.


Went for £72 after 7 bids.    Reckon that's a fair price in the circumstances.

Here's quite a good one, but with starting bid of £99-99......

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250968947883#ht_702wt_1187

Set of balls and the bridge provided (for Mississippi version of the game)
Opens out to 7ft, plain case but always good to see maker's label (in this case Gamages).


Auction closed, No bids.

[Chris_Sav]

Pub with bagatelle table

Thought this one most interesting as I've never seen a picture of a bagatelle table in commercial use.

Sav

Thanks Sav,
It's certainly news that it was played in London back in that era.

Check out this onefrom Bristol in which they erroneously claimed it was Bar Billiards....I put them right of course as you can see in "comments and faves". ;D

One here (smaller variant, 6'long) in average condition :

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370602839430


Went for a very reasonable £51 after 3 bids.

Size not specified on this one, but looks like the smaller (6 ft) version:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221020452340

Went for £58-76 after 5 bids.

Another full-size one (eight-footer):

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251079834631

Vendor has performed some research, dating the table to 1830-ish (pre-Victorian times). :o  Interesting !

Maker's name: JOSEPH ZANETTI (MANCHESTER).

Not in the best of condition, with the stains on the cloth, but should make near the £100 mark.


Went for £214-99 after 18 bids.



What ??  I only paid half that for mine - and it's in better nick ! ;D

Worth upwards of £1000 apparently if supplied with the turned legs:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180913485712

Probably has a past association with the Chester Bagatelle League.


Bidding ended, no takers at list price (£1500).

And here's one in above-average condition and with a nice set of the correct sized balls:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120937493280


Went for £185 after 3 bids.

One from Buckinghamshire, good condition, nice case and still has the arch set (very rare).

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251098180824#ht_500wt_1287

Makers name: A.W.GAMAGE.

Only the 6ft version (a full size would open out to 8ft) but even so winning bid should exceed £100.


Went for £73 after 10 bids.   Someone bagged a bargain !

[dipper]

On You Tube at the moment is somebody showing a small size table top version of Bar Billiards, and explaining how to play it.
Don`t know how they would level this one up as it is plonked on top of what looks like a kitchen table, the table has the correct amount of holes, but only five balls and no timing mechanism.

Thanks Roger,
You will find that I have included a clip of that under the thread entitled 'Table Top Bar Billiards'.

tommo

Tewkesbury area, again a six-footer, again the arch provided, but no balls.
Cloth damaged (see underside) otherwise in reasonable condition.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271013675339#ht_500wt_1287

Billed as "bar billiards" - but it's not, of course ! ::)


Went for £165 after 13 bids.

Another bagatelle table incorrectly advertised as 'Pub bar billiards'

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280917868942#ht_500wt_1287

"When open 121cm in length" means it's only half size, 121cms being approximately 4ft. So counts really as a toy.

Accompanied by a complete and authentic set of 'Bonzoline' balls - 4 white, 4 red and a black, plus three 'dollies' which cranks the value up accordingly.

These can be either 1" or 1.5" in diameter - and being 1" confirms it as a small-size table.


Went for £390 after 45 bids.     Crazy money !

.....and yet another bagatelle table being advertised incorrectly as bar billiards:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140791314372#ht_500wt_1287

Opening bid required of £199 = extremely optimistic considering the average-to-poor condition, and apparent lack for any attributes such as balls and cues.

Plus points are that it's a full size (8ft) table, and the case is in good condition.


Went for £199 after 2 bids.

Another full-sized one, with nice case (identical to mine in pictures above) but half the cups missing. This is a serious drawback as it detracts from the authenticity of a 150-year old artefact if new ones have to be fashioned:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200796149367#ht_11069wt_1270


Went for just £33 after 4 bids.  Winning bidder faces a big restoration project.