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Post by NigelS on Dec 5, 2011 20:25:23 GMT
This is the current ranking system. we will be discussing the mixed pairs as per a request from Ros Appleby, please add any comments or queries or points for discussion below and I will bring them forward to the committee in January to finalise any amendments to be made for 2012.
AEBBA Ranking System 2011
1) Opens - Players get points for reaching the last 32 in the following order - 16,12,9,6,3,1. In addition a win bonus of 0.5pts will be given for any match won where ranking points ARE NOT at stake (that is to say any round before the last 64). This ensures all players that have won a match will receive some sort of points.
In the event of a walkover, no match bonus will be awarded, in the event of a walkover in a later round where ranking points are at stake a player will receive his full allotment of points, but will only receive half points if they have not won a match in a previous round.
2) World Champs - - Players get points for reaching the last 64 in the order 27,21,16,11,7,4,2. The 0.5 win bonus is also in effect under the same criteira as for opens.
Tweak for 2011 due to new group formats. Players receive 0.1 points for any win in the group stages.
3) County Champs - Players will receive 1 pt for a leg won with break, and 1.5 pts for legs won against break and 1pt bonus for winning all legs (or 5 out of 6 legs if that many games played) if the player wins more than 50% of their allotted games. If the players wins more than 40% (but less than 50%) of their games they will receive a one point reduction. If a player wins less than 40% of their games they will receive no points.
There will be 2 points and 4 point deductions for divisions 2 and 3.
Tweak for 2011 – all points will be converted into the equivalent of 4 matches. This is to keep the total points awarded consistent between years.
4) National Team Champs will receive no ranking points
5) Grand Prix will receive no ranking points
6) Internationals will receive no ranking points
7) Alternative Rules - points given to quarter finals onwards in the order 7,5,3,1. Win bonus to apply but reduced to 0.25.
8) Pairs (both Bournemouth and Jersey) points given to quarter finals onwards in order 7,5,3,1. Win bonus to apply but reduced to 0.25. New Guernsey Pairs receive half points as the entry is less than half of Jersey and Bournemouth
9) All England Singles - Qualified players will receive 1 pt for each leg won and 1 pt for each match won (including final). The All England Ladies will also now contribute (as they generally cannot qualify for the All England Singles) and will be awarded 2 points for the winner and 1 for the runner up.
10) Plates - 2pts for winner and 1pt for runner up in opens. 0.1 point will be awarded for any match won in the plate, before the semi final.
In Jersey there is also an increase to 4pts for the winner, 2pts for runner up and 0.7pts for the 2 losing semi finalists and 0.1 point for each match won before the quarter finals.
Reduced points for alternative rules plate and Bournemouth pairs plate to 0.7 for winner, 0.35 for runner up, 0.05 points awarded for any match won before the semi final
11) Inter Insular points have been removed for the same reason that internationals were removed.
12) Score bonuses will be for any leg score over 8,000 (0.1 points), 11,000 (0.2 points etc). Jersey will be from 5,000 at 3,000 increments. Alternative Rules will be from 2,000 at 500 increments
13) From 2009 rankings will be updated on a tournament by tournament basis rather than dropping a whole years points at the end of each year. So for example the 2009 Oxford Open points will replace the 2006 Oxford Open points. This is to ensure there are always 3 years results in the system at all times.
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Post by NigelS on Dec 5, 2011 20:29:35 GMT
Ladies rankings 2011
1) Ladies in the past have been awarded all the points they gain in opens.
2) British Ladies, an increase to 18,14,10,6,2. Plus 3, 1.5 for plate. In addition a win bonus of 0.5pts will be given for any match won where ranking points ARE NOT at stake. There will be 0.1 points awarded for any match won in the plate before the semi final
3) Special Ladies leave at 15,10,6,3,1, with 2,1 for plate. In addition a win bonus of 0.5pts will be given for any match won where ranking points ARE NOT at stake. There will be 0.1 points awarded for any match won in the plate before the semi final
4) All England Ladies the bonus for winning has been removed as per men but keep 1 pt for leg/ 1 pt for win
5) County as per men - Players will receive 1 pt for a leg won with break, and 1.5 pts for legs won against break and 1pt bonus for winning all legs (or 5 out of 6 legs if that many games played) if the player wins more than 50% of their allotted games. If the players wins more than 40% (but less than 50%) of their games they will receive a one point reduction. If a player wins less than 40% of their games they will receive no points.
There will be 2 points and 4 point deductions for divisions 2 and 3.
Tweak for 2011 – all points will be converted into the equivalent of 4 matches. This is to keep the total points awarded consistent between years.
6) Remove Ladies international and Grand Prix to stay consistent with the men
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2011 11:59:16 GMT
Hi Nigel,
Firstly let me say that I was deeply honoured to be part of the original ranking committee, and proud of our achievements. :D
However I am thinking that it is maybe time for a shakeup, and would like to stand down to let someone else have a go. You may find some of the others a bit difficult to get hold of too.
if you are receiving nominations on here, I'd like to put forward Dave Ingram as my replacement, as he is pretty adept in the subject of figures and stats.
Regards,
tommo
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 16:40:32 GMT
Thank you Nigel for giving a full list of the current Ranking Points System.... perhaps you could clarify a couple of points... 3) County Champs - Players will receive 1 pt for a leg won with break, and 1.5 pts for legs won against break and 1pt bonus for winning all legs (or 5 out of 6 legs if that many games played) if the player wins more than 50% of their allotted games. If the players wins more than 40% (but less than 50%) of their games they will receive a one point reduction. If a player wins less than 40% of their games they will receive no points.There will be 2 points and 4 point deductions for divisions 2 and 3. Tweak for 2011 – all points will be converted into the equivalent of 4 matches. This is to keep the total points awarded consistent between years.1) It has never really seemed fair to me that points earned through wins can then be taken away again.... It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a player could be drawn against the break in 3 of their 5 County games and to have lost all 3 of those games before they have even played a single shot. I would be interested to hear the thoughts of other people about this....? 2) With the new County Division 1 Format being changed to 6 teams, would it be better for all points to be converted to the equivalent of 5 matches in the future? |
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 16:46:40 GMT
Another question.... ;D 4) National Team Champs will receive no ranking points 9) All England Singles - Qualified players will receive 1 pt for each leg won and 1 pt for each match won (including final). The All England Ladies will also now contribute (as they generally cannot qualify for the All England Singles) and will be awarded 2 points for the winner and 1 for the runner up. Is there any particular reason that All England Singles qualifiers receive Ranking Points, but National Team Champs (and Grand Prix) do not...? |
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 16:49:12 GMT
Last question on the Open Ranking Points.... ::) 12) Score bonuses will be for any leg score over 8,000 (0.1 points), 11,000 (0.2 points etc). Jersey will be from 5,000 at 3,000 increments. Alternative Rules will be from 2,000 at 500 increments I assume that Guernsey Score Bonuses are the same as Jersey.... perhaps this should be included? ;) |
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 16:59:58 GMT
Now to the Ladies Ranking Points System.... I assume that Ladies will continue to be awarded the points that they gain in Opens.... Number 1 seems to indicate that was "in the past have been" but doesn't actually clarify if it applies to the future.... it may just be the way that I have read it of course! ::) Ladies rankings 2011 1) Ladies in the past have been awarded all the points they gain in opens. 2) British Ladies, an increase to 18,14,10,6,2. Plus 3, 1.5 for plate. In addition a win bonus of 0.5pts will be given for any match won where ranking points ARE NOT at stake. There will be 0.1 points awarded for any match won in the plate before the semi final 3) Special Ladies leave at 15,10,6,3,1, with 2,1 for plate. In addition a win bonus of 0.5pts will be given for any match won where ranking points ARE NOT at stake. There will be 0.1 points awarded for any match won in the plate before the semi final Okay, a few more questions... A) Is there a reason that the British Ladies gains more ranking points than a County Open, when there are less entries? B) Is there a reason that Special Ladies gets different points to British Ladies.... less entries perhaps? C) There are no mention of Score Bonuses for Ladies... I assume that they are the same as for the men? D) I would make the same points about County Champs and All England Ladies that I made above about the Mens / Open Competitions. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2011 17:09:09 GMT
if you are receiving nominations on here, I'd like to put forward Dave Ingram as my replacement, as he is pretty adept in the subject of figures and stats. Regards, tommo Presumably Dave has already taken up his position, as these are the very points that the Ranking Committee will be discussing ! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2011 17:16:22 GMT
Another question.... ;D Is there any particular reason that All England Singles qualifiers receive Ranking Points, but National Team Champs (and Grand Prix) do not...? You will find the answer to this one, and a few others, on here, Dave: www.aebba.org.uk/a_rankrule.shtml |
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 17:18:48 GMT
To revert back to the original reason for this thread... This is the current ranking system. we will be discussing the mixed pairs as per a request from Ros Appleby, please add any comments or queries or points for discussion below and I will bring them forward to the committee in January to finalise any amendments to be made for 2012. If memory serves me correctly, I believe that the original proposal came as a way to try to encourage more players to enter the Mixed Doubles.... obviously we would all like to see more entries for that competition. Personally, I don't think that awarding Ranking Points would act as an incentive to get more people to actually enter as I would assume that there would only be a minimal amount of points offered as the entry level is likely to be (at best) similar to the newly started Guernsey Pairs, which is awarded half the points given at Jersey and Bournemouth due to lower level of entries. So all it would be likely to achieve would be to offer a small reward to those players who would probably have entered anyway.... :-/ Apologies if the next bit goes "off topic".... A competition that I would like to see introduced would be a National "Off the Spot" Competition.... with Ranking Points available. Possibly also a Ladies "Off the Spot" Competition could also be run, which if run on the same day as the Mixed Doubles could bring in more entries for that competition.... Just a thought.... ;) |
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 17:21:31 GMT
if you are receiving nominations on here, I'd like to put forward Dave Ingram as my replacement, as he is pretty adept in the subject of figures and stats. Regards, tommo Presumably Dave has already taken up his position, as these are the very points that the Ranking Committee will be discussing ! ;D ;D ;D Very kind of you to propose me Tommo..... and, if asked, I would be  to be part of the Ranking Committee. 8-) Perhaps I ought to keep some ideas back now though..... just in case I am asked!! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 17:29:00 GMT
Another question.... ;D Is there any particular reason that All England Singles qualifiers receive Ranking Points, but National Team Champs (and Grand Prix) do not...? You will find the answer to this one, and a few others, on here, Dave: www.aebba.org.uk/a_rankrule.shtml Yes, I had read those and understand why National Team Champs and Grand Prix were removed.... but the question that I asked was why are they different to All England Singles? The AE Singles is restricted to 1 player from each County and it is probably fair to say that it is easier to qualify for this competition from certain Counties rather than some others which means that some players have less chance of ever qualify for this competition than others.... which appears to be the reason that the Team Champs was taken out of the Ranking Point system? |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 6, 2011 20:06:58 GMT
Hi Nigel, Firstly let me say that I was deeply honoured to be part of the original ranking committee, and proud of our achievements. :D However I am thinking that it is maybe time for a shakeup, and would like to stand down to let someone else have a go. You may find some of the others a bit difficult to get hold of too. if you are receiving nominations on here, I'd like to put forward Dave Ingram as my replacement, as he is pretty adept in the subject of figures and stats. Regards, tommo Thanks Tommo for all your help in arriving at the current ranking system, I will also being contacting other memebers of the original committee to see if they still want input. i think asking Dave is also a good idea as he has plenty of ideas and shows interest in the rankings, it will be good to have someone fresh onboard to discuss ideas... |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 6, 2011 20:09:34 GMT
I assume that Guernsey Score Bonuses are the same as Jersey.... perhaps this should be included? ;) Easy questions first, yes Guernsey bonusses are the same as Jersey, as you can see I am trying to get a definitive set of the ranking system, so do need to iron out some of the wording... |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 6, 2011 20:15:52 GMT
Thank you Nigel for giving a full list of the current Ranking Points System.... perhaps you could clarify a couple of points... 1) It has never really seemed fair to me that points earned through wins can then be taken away again.... It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a player could be drawn against the break in 3 of their 5 County games and to have lost all 3 of those games before they have even played a single shot. I would be interested to hear the thoughts of other people about this....? 2) With the new County Division 1 Format being changed to 6 teams, would it be better for all points to be converted to the equivalent of 5 matches in the future? 1) Bit historical this one, PF's system was adapted to bring us to the current one and he only awarded points to players who won at least half their games - we never changed this, all we changed was removing ranking points for averages as we felt winning the game was inportant at county level and not score - lots of people touch up. This year I decided to include players who had won 2 out of 5 as it seemed harsh to give them nothing, but did deduct a point. 2) Could be worth considering but that would inflate the points given out at the county champs. The competition has not become more important it has just changed from 3 to 2 divisions, and I think we need to award approximately the same number of points each year. Hence the reason for it being scaled to 4 games. |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 6, 2011 20:27:02 GMT
Okay, a few more questions... A) Is there a reason that the British Ladies gains more ranking points than a County Open, when there are less entries? B) Is there a reason that Special Ladies gets different points to British Ladies.... less entries perhaps? C) There are no mention of Score Bonuses for Ladies... I assume that they are the same as for the men? D) I would make the same points about County Champs and All England Ladies that I made above about the Mens / Open Competitions. Firstly yeah ladies will receive all their points earned in opens as in the past, before they only received half points in PF's system, which is why the wording is a bit wrong. A) Yes the ladies get more points in their own events mainly because they are the events that primarily make up the ladies rankings. It seems to make more sense to award more points when the ladies play each other rather than when they are up against men also. A British Ladies champion may not be making it past many rounds in opens as they are up against men but we also want to reward performances in open tournaments as well. Obviously the ladies only events don't contribute to the open rankings list. B) Basically yes, usually double entries, and more prestigous title. C) Should have mentioned those, in ladies only events we start at 5,000, Still at 8,000 for open events mainly for simplicity as they simply earn the points they got in an open and it saves adjusting. D) Will tackle that when answering the mens |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 6, 2011 20:57:30 GMT
Is there any particular reason that All England Singles qualifiers receive Ranking Points, but National Team Champs (and Grand Prix) do not...? Yes, basically the All England Singles is an individual tournament where any individual has the opportunity to qualify. The problem is that it is tougher to qualify out of certain counties than others but we felt that being the 2nd most prestigious title on the claendar we need to reward the winner with ranking points. We discussed a few systems one being trying to reward the counties runners up of their county singles to redress the balance, but we eventually arrived at the system we did. With the National Team we decided it was a step too far to award ranking points, players playing in stronger teams had more chance of qualifying. Also for example a player who won all the matches in the county qualifiers may not progress into the finals due to his/her team not progressing. We felt this was different to counties because players were being picked on merit and the larger counties had B teams so to compensate. Basically the All England Singles and county champs are participated by players qualifying on merit, the team champs was too reliant on team members to be able to compete. |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 6, 2011 20:59:37 GMT
Hope that answers all your questions Dave and I would like to formally invite you onto the committee to replace Clive. I want to make it clear that the above is based on what the committee decided at the time, we didn't always agree but reached a majority decision on what we decided.
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2011 21:55:17 GMT
Hope that answers all your questions Dave and I would like to formally invite you onto the committee to replace Clive. I want to make it clear that the above is based on what the committee decided at the time, we didn't always agree but reached a majority decision on what we decided. Many thanks for your replies Nigel, which certainly answered my questions. 8-) I am pleased to accept the invitation to join the Ranking Committee and look forward to discussing thoughts and ideas for the future. ;) |
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Post by Chris on Dec 8, 2011 21:35:40 GMT
One point... Sometimes I feel we go to far, to in-depth and don't go back to reality.
WE HAVE SOME GREAT PEOPLE OUT THERE DOING FANTASTIC JOBS- Thank you :-*
Sav and the team of moderators for the website
Dave ans Sam plus family for the tables and Reading comps
Kev and the selectors for the England Teams
Nigel for the draws, Open Rankings, Grand Prix
Tony Willis Inter Area
ALL THE SECRETARIES of all the leagues for sorting all our local leagues plus their committees
AEBBA Committee for their freely given time
CLIVE who is just an amazing ambassador and works so hard to support
and those like Dave Ingram on here who wants to forward the game.
But... I actually do nothing much yet still at times have moaned ...
All we really want is to encourage the game and see more players... ???
Debate is great but I really don't care if the Mixed Pairs has Ranking Points not a priority really. Probably as I believe it should not.
What I care about is the future and I believe the intense recent two threads, this one and especially the AGM one, which goes into peoples private lives ( which is wholly not on as people need down time) does us no favours in encouraging new players.
If you were a new player what would you think if you logged onto our site??? and saw some of the threads.
Yes I am as much to blame and take as much responsibility.
There is no Portsmouth Open next Year, will others pull out with falling numbers and no support ?? Brian, Mary, Tony and Kady did a fantastic job but without them we are nothing...so what are we also doing to promote those that already do play?? as well as those that don't yet!!
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Post by Chris on Dec 8, 2011 21:47:03 GMT
and should have said no Ladies are commenting here ??
maybe they don't want to and this is a pointless debate?
No offense to Nigel or Dave at all
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2011 22:42:51 GMT
Thank you Chris, and just to confirm that I have started a thread on the Open-that-isn't-to-be and would ask people to lodge any comments or reactions there, with this thread being kept for the topic of Rankings System.
tommo
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Post by NigelS on Dec 8, 2011 23:41:45 GMT
and should have said no Ladies are commenting here ?? maybe they don't want to and this is a pointless debate? No offense to Nigel or Dave at all No offence taken Chris, I know rankings don't hold interest to many players, although I know a lot of people look at them judging by the emails and questions I often get on how players got what points for this and that. This thread is just an opportunity for people to voice an opinion or ask questions as I want to make it clear that the rankings have not been devised by a secret society and that players do have a say if they want one. I have always invited opinion or if someone wants a place on the committee they only have to ask. Which leads me to say that Mal Spier and Mark Trafford would like to continue on the committe, Dave May and Clive Thompson want to step down and I would like to publicly thank them for their help over the last few years. Dave Ingram has stepped into to one of their shoes, leaving room for another. A lady perhaps??? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 12:36:21 GMT
I'm not a lady but would be keen to support.
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 9, 2011 18:21:47 GMT
and should have said no Ladies are commenting here ?? maybe they don't want to and this is a pointless debate? No offense to Nigel or Dave at all Certainly no offense taken by me either Chris.... the whole point of the Forum (apart from the superb information that you can get from it) is that it should give us all a place to be able to express our opinions and discuss things about the game. 8-) We may not always agree about everything, but we should always respect the views of others. ;) Personally, I think that giving everybody the opportunity to comment about things is a good thing and can, on occasions, provide new ideas that will benefit the game we all enjoy and hopefully ensure that it has a future.... 8-) I think that the one thing that I find most frustrating is when I hear people complaining about things at matches during the season.... whether it is the format, fixture lists, table qualities, Committee Decisions etc etc. But, when the time of the AGM comes round, they NEVER turn up to say or try to do anything about the things that they are unhappy about. The next season, they are still grumbling about the same things.... I'm sure that everybody knows at least one person in their League that I could be describing there.... ::) So, is this a pointless debate.... to me, that is something that no matter what you say, nothing will change. I would sincerely hope that we will never be in that situation here and believe that individual opinions matter and will be taken into consideration with every decision. Long may that continue. |
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Post by NigelS on Dec 9, 2011 20:38:22 GMT
I'm not a lady but would be keen to support. Thanks Lorin, understand you are not a lady, but would be keen to have you on the committee be good to have someone from outside Oxon/ Sussex. |
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Post by Chris on Dec 9, 2011 20:52:11 GMT
Dear Nigel and Dave
I truly do value ranking points and Grand Prix. and especially all the hard work Nigel you do
and Dave I truly appreciate your very valid points and indepth points of view that you raise.
I am female but not a lady so not willing to join the ranking points committee :-X :) :-*
Chris
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enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
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Post by enzo on Dec 14, 2011 8:24:35 GMT
Why is there no leg bonus for the Opens?
We can appreciate it may add more calculations and may need tweaking but us amaeteurs would rather take 0.1 or 0.05 points back home with us than none if we take a leg off of someone with or without the break but lose the match on aggregate scores.
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Post by NigelS on Dec 14, 2011 19:34:30 GMT
Why is there no leg bonus for the Opens? We can appreciate it may add more calculations and may need tweaking but us amaeteurs would rather take 0.1 or 0.05 points back home with us than none if we take a leg off of someone with or[/] without the break but lose the match on aggregate scores.Thanks for your question Loz. I guess the main reason is complexity, to calculate bonus points for each leg of a 2 leg match would take some time. We award a bonus for winning the match whether it be plate or main comp, which I think is enough. For example in Oxon this year 80 of the 108 players earned some points which means the points are spread throughout the field. I think it is important to remember in open (main comp) we do play best of 2, a win in a leg does not help you progress, and in some cases people will touch up in the 2nd leg when they have won the match not the leg so allocating ranking points here may not be right. However this is my opinion, and I will bring this up when discussing the rankings with the committee in the new year, if you want me to. |
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enzo
Distinguished Member
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Post by enzo on Dec 15, 2011 10:23:23 GMT
Cheers Nige, wasn't sure if points were awarded previously and now have been withdrawn?! Interesting point about touching up though but it is their choice.
Assumed it was because it is labour intensive but I wouldn't mind if you did suggest it, with a heavy emphasis on rewarding players/newcomers who support AEBBA and attend the opens but do not get points.
Or if this isn't liked, how about only for players that do NOT score any points but DO win legs? I can't see how this could be unfair/have objections as there is only a maximum number of leg bonuses that could be awarded before the player receives other ranking points. Therefore the only extra calculations would be the people who haven't received any points but won a leg, and as per your example of 80:108 obtaining points, only 28 people would need to be scanned for a leg win which can't take more than a few minutes on top?
Food for thought anyway you get my angle :)
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to be part of the Ranking Committee. 8-)
