Etiquette?

[Ros]

We have a rearranged match tomorrow night.

Tonight we went in for our normal weekly team practice, to learn that a member of the opposing team (and committee member) had been in earlier this evening practising.

Now, I'm quite aware that this is not against our rules, except where it is a drawn competition match (unless it's on the match night, in which case Sussex rules apply) but I have always understood it was very bad form/etiquette to practice on an away table immediately before a match.

I would personally not play on a table for at least a week before a league match, indeed in the past I have been at Hurst club for a committee meeting six days before a match and not had a friendly game after the meeting (from choice)

It would seem a pity to think about whether we should have rules on this issue, there are many (including me) who like to play at different venues and visit different pubs. But it seems that home table advantage could become a mockery?

[NigelS]

Well its a matter of opinion, Ros, but I would only consider practising a table on the day of the match to be bad form.

If you are keen enough to go out and practice, and you know you have a match on a certain table, I can't see why you should be stopped from doing so. When I was dead keen and first atarted playing I would go round all the pubs with my dad practising all the tables, I didn't consider that poor etiquette - after all the other players are free to go out and practice if they want to.

You couldn't possibly have a rule to stop players doing this anyway as we all have competition games to play in different venues and these would be held up a lot if we stopped people playing on tables a week before a league match

[Chunky Monkey]

Hi Ros

aslong as my player did not touch the table in way ie. twist legs, which i know they wouldn't then i dont see it as bad etiquette. They are a very keen player and wants to do well for themself and their team.

If they were to play the table the same day as the match then yes it would be a problem, and would cause me to have to sit them out that night but this is not the case.

Sorry Ros but am with nigel on this one.

[BB Warrior]

Ros, as the "guilty party" here, I feel that I have the right to respond although I have to say that I am disappointed that you have chosen to air this on a public forum when you could easily have spoken to me about it tonight or e-mailed me direct as I know that you have my e-mail address. >:(

Having spent the afternoon with friends who live in Burgess Hill, I had provisionally arranged to meet one of my team mates for a couple of games at the Hurst Club as the 2 week Christmas break had given me withdrawal symptons...! ;D

While on the way to the Hurst Club, I received a text from him saying that he couldn't make it, however decided to go there anyway and was driving down the road when I came to the Sportsman pub - which is, of course, on the direct route to the Hurst from Burgess Hill.

On impulse, I decided to stop and have a game. I'm glad that I did, the landlord there made me very welcome and even played a game against me (the pub was very quiet and I was one of only 2 customers there at the time!) and he told me that you and the team were due in about 9pm as the table had not been "set up" (his words) for the match against us......! ???

I presume, if I were to be cynical about this, that I could easily believe that his comment would indicate that the table is "set up" to be a "homer" to give your team a significant advantage? ??? No doubt that I will find out tonight........!!

I made no secret of either who I was, or the fact that we had a match against your team the next day - as you rightly pointed out, I had broken none of the League Rules by playing there.

As a former chairman of our League and someone who was keen to tell everybody on the Committee who good your new table was when you got it last year, I would have thought that you would be pleased that somebody is enthusiastic enough about the game to want to play a couple of games on it....??

Apparently not. :o

For what it is worth, I enjoyed the 2 games that I had on it. The Sportsman is a nice pub and the landlord was very welcoming. :)

If there are any other players in Sussex who would like a game of Bar Billiards in a welcoming venue, then I would happily recommend they visit this pub..... since it is so quiet that the Landlord told me that he had to close at 10pm on New Years Eve I am sure that he would be pleased to have the business!!

Possibly, and very sadly in my opinion, it would seem that the home team won't be so welcoming though....... :-X

[BB Warrior]

Ros, just a quick note to confirm one more thing, since the point was raised by BB Reaper.....

I have not - and would NEVER adjust another teams table under any circumstances, without their full knowledge and agreement at the time.

I am sorry if my enthusiasm for the game has upset you, but maybe our League (and the game of Bar Billiards?) needs a few more people to be enthusiastic about it to guarantee it's future.... especially in new venues such as the Sportsman....??

[Ros]

davidingram said:

I have to say that I am disappointed that you have chosen to air this on a public forum when you could easily have spoken to me about it tonight or e-mailed me direct

To what end? We are clearly agreed that no rules have been broken. I was interested in the views of this public forum about the matter in general.

It would have been hard, although not impossible, to identify you personally from the post I made.

... he told me that you and the team were due in about 9pm as the table had not been "set up" (his words) for the match against us......! ???
I presume, if I were to be cynical about this, that I could easily believe that his comment would indicate that the table is "set up" to be a "homer" to give your team a significant advantage? ??? No doubt that I will find out tonight........!!

My "set up" routine is to brush the table, iron it (usually), clean the pockets and change the balls to the match set. I would also check the level if I had any reason to believe the table had been moved or it didn't seem to be playing as usual.

I have never (and neither did Sparky, who used to prepare our table) set up our table to be a "homer" - it has always been our intention to have it play as well as possible at all times (within the constraints of the venue available) This has sometimes put us on the wrong end of some remarkable thrashings from top teams, but we have no complaints about that.

BTW Dave, there was never any intention to suggest that you had (or ever would have) altered an away table - although this is purely a matter of "etiquette" too, our rules do not forbid it.

since it is so quiet that the Landlord told me that he had to close at 10pm on New Years Eve I am sure that he would be pleased to have the business!!

The Sportsman is a "village pub" without a village. Few would be able to walk there and there is no public transport to speak of. Historically it has always been very quiet on New Year's Eve and the landlord decided he would be closing early back in November. He and his fiancee, together with most of the staff and regulars went down to Brighton for the evening.

For what it is worth, I enjoyed the 2 games that I had on it. The Sportsman is a nice pub and the landlord was very welcoming. :)

Possibly, and very sadly in my opinion, it would seem that the home team won't be so welcoming though....... :-X

The landlord has always been very welcoming, even when busy, it is one of the reasons we are to be at this pub. I'm sure that Pete and Jenny (who I heard were in over Christmas) were equally welcomed.

We are always delighted if others want to come in and play our table, even to the extent of inviting players from other teams to play with us on practice nights.

------------------------------------------------

It has always been my understanding (within Mid Sussex League) that it was viewed as "poor form" to play on an away table a few days before a league game - almost an "unwritten rule".

If that is no longer the case I would like to know, as I would be keen to play at away venues just before a match too (although four of them are in clubs, so cannot be accessed without membership)

I didn't play a "scorer's friendly" at the Brewers recently because we had a league match 3 days later, even though I was itching to have a go after scoring 3 games for Sparky v Sir Trevor's Senior Singles.

However, if "checking out" away tables the day before a match becomes widespread and is accepted as fair, we should not be surprised if tables do start getting set up as "homers" - heaven knows what that will do for the overall table quality within Mid Sussex. ???

My comment is really on the general subject of etiquette.....
There's no rule to stop it, but I've always thought it bad etiquette for the home side to be practising the break, one-up and split shamelessly as the away team walk in - as happens quite often with certain teams (not mine !) at Interleague.

Visiting the away venue a day before a match for a quick preview and insight into how the table plays is minimal compared to that, but I would still not like to be caught doing it myself and for that reason I suppose it also must count as bad etiquette.

As Nigel and the Reaper suggest, practising beforehand does not break the rules and it would be difficult to legislate against anyway. It does however demonstrate an enthusiasm and determination to win at all costs.

I know what I would do, Ros - fight fire with fire and take a different set of "championship" balls up there tonight. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[JB]

Cant see the problem at all of letting players practice a table as long as its not the day of the match. I know this is the Brighton rule but not sure if there is a mid-sussex rule.

Surely we are trying to encourage landlords to keep there tables nowadays and if one or two people go in the pub and practice on a non-league night well done to them for at least trying to show the landlord that bar billiards is still popular and that their table might be used more than once a week.

There are some players in our league that always go and practice tables a day or two before a league match. Good luck to them and well done for trying to show landlords that a pool table or food tables instead of a bar billiard table might not be such a good idea.

[Chris_Sav]

I Have to say I find this amusing / interesting from an outsiders point of view.

As one of the longest playing players in the game I have seen it all!!

I used to go and practice on away tables, if league rules allowed it, but never nowadays and I think that is the case for most senior players.

Been there read the book etc!!!

If the youngsters are still keen enough to do it then good luck to them, they cannot be criticized for putting money in bar billiard tables when the future of many tables is dodgy.

Our own league the home team always take first break, so cuts down the need to go and look.

The only one I would not agree on is practicing on a drawn neutral table, that is a no - no.

Sav.

sav said:

The only one I would not agree on is practicing on a drawn neutral table, that is a no - no.
Sav.

Yes, there is a Mid Sussex Rule which forbids that, at pains of being chucked out of the competition. It is, hate to say it, a form of cheating.

And I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you said.

[milko]

The rule covering this in our league is, (It is considered unsporting to practice on away tables in your section or on designated neutral tables).

Although this is another rule that may need updating, because we have sections playing against each other, so the part of the rule which reads (in your section) does not apply to a section one player who has to play on a premier table in the league.

I agree with Ros, as I know that if I started to practice on away tables in my section it would cause an uproar, so I would not even consider it, so would expect everyone to do the same.

I do not agree with Nigel's comment, quote, (If you are keen enough to go out and practice, and you know you have a match on a certain table, I can't see why you should be stopped from doing so).

If all players done this, we might as well do away with playing home & away and play on a neutral table and let all players practice on it.

I also disagree with tommo's comment, quote, (There's no rule to stop it, but I've always thought it bad etiquette for the home side to be practising the break, one-up and split shamelessly as the away team walk in - as happens quite often with certain teams (not mine !) at Interleague).

If home teams want to do this that's up to them, this will surely help the away team, as they will be able to see how the table plays.
Some home players only practice once a week between 8pm & 8.30pm, especially if they live far away.

But after saying all this, I think in the Jersey league the away teams are allowed to practice on the home teams table up to 8pm on the night.

I think you can do this at Pool as well.



Keith.

[Sparky]

I am glad that this has come up for discussion, even though I fully understand BBW's point about the public airing, as I too was under the impression that practising on an opponents table for some days (even a week) before a league game was bad etiquette but never really knew how long before was acceptable.

Ros is correct that both of us believe in having the best possible home table, even though it has been difficult to achieve good results in some of our past venues.

Thanks to all the above posts I can now see both sides, with the merits and pitfalls of 'morally allowing' practice the night before a league game, however had I known it was 'acceptable' all these years I too would have been checking out everyone else's table before matches whereas I have been critical of other players of doing so in the past.

I am happy to let home team players show me how a table plays before the match starts, same as watching a table at competition that you will be playing on later, but always 'stop' myself if the opposition enters the room.

Maybe it is time to ask the league, at AGM, what is acceptable or even adopt a rule similar to that shown us by Milko so that we can all play by the same code .

[BB Warrior]

Having read the comments here (many made by players who are far better than me!) I can see both sides of the coin, however since I have broken no rules I fail to see why Ros chose to make this "public" here.

To be honest, I feel as if I have been accused of "cheating" and certainly, prior to the match that will be held later tonight, feel as if I am in a "no-win" situation regardless of the result. If I win, then everybody will say it is only because I practised.......!

When it comes to competitions, I would not ever practice on a table prior to playing a match at that venue, however I enjoy playing on different tables when the opportunity arises and would be disappointed if a rule were to be introduced that you could only ever practice on either your home table, or at a venue that did not have a team in your League.

If Ros, or anybody else, wishes to bring in a rule at Committee or the AGM that players can not practice on away tables then I will obviously happily agree to that...... but surely we should be encouraging people to play MORE Bar Billiards, not criticising them because they are enthusiastic and WANT TO PLAY.....???

I would have thought that would apply especially at new venues....?

On a final note, I was very pleased to hear that Ros and her team welcome other players to join them on practice nights...... since they were due to have one of those last night, dare I ask what the difference was by me playing there.....??????

[JB]

The trouble is a lot of players play the same tables in 2 different leagues
Ive played at Duke of Wellington in Brighton on Wednesday and then played there the next day in Worthing. Does this mean i shouldnt be playing on the Thursday as i practiced (albeit in a match) on the Wednesday.

This has also happened in inter-league where i have played a table on Thursday and then played inter-league there on the Sunday.

Tonight we are playing at home (also our inter-league venue) and the team we are playing against have 2 members of our inter-league team. Should we tell them they cant play on Sunday because they have had a practice tonight.

I know this happens often in Brighton and Worthing and i know mid-sussex have at least 2 teams that also play in Lewes so the same could happen.

Also surely in inter league not all the players play from the same pub so to have a go on the table that is there home table for inter-league should be allowed.

Lets not stop keen players from practicing tables except on the match day after all bar billiards is struggling to survive without stopping players playing.

Also with fewer pubs a neutral venue is hard to find. Most tables are played by most people quite a few times during a season

[bigtj]

Surely we are trying to encourage people to play our wonderful game to maintain the future of the leagues, and I certainly agree that no away player to practice the table on the day, but if somebody new and keen to learn dfifferent tables then so be it if they do not break any local league rules.

As JB says to implement a rule would be awkward with players playing multipul leagues i.e Terry Molloy plays for me at the Windmill in the Worthing leagueso this is technically his home top, but on Sunday he will play there as asn away player for Brighton B inter-league. I see no problem with this and look forward to the challange of outthinking their captain and trying to beat him tactically.

As for Sussex inter league I am sure Tommo there is a rule that states home team to only practice table to 7.15pm and as most away teams are not on the premises by that time it would only affect a handful of people. Surely it is benificial for the away team to get a preview of the top and not any real extra benefit to the home team.

[milko]

We have players at the Nelson that play in two leagues, there is nothing in the rules to say you can't, so it is an advantage for them if they play on there other home table.

This is perfectly ok, but it doesn't help me when I sort out neutral tables for everyone.

I had a complaint recently, when I put a pairs match on the Dolphin table, where two Nelson players play there home games in the Wallingford league, the other two players were unhappy about this.

We might even have three different leagues that play on the Nelson table next year.

[Ros]

davidingram said:

..... however since I have broken no rules I fail to see why Ros chose to make this "public" here.

It is precisely because you have broken no rules that I thought the issue worthy of public debate. I didn't name you and I haven't made it "personal", neither have I accused you of cheating.

Quoting Sav:

If the youngsters are still keen enough to do it then good luck to them

Sav is not the only one who seems to have assumed that BBW is a young and inexperienced player - I hope he won't take further offence if I say that neither is the case.

We do already have a rule in Mid-Sussex that forbids practice on tables where you have been drawn to play a competition (singles, doubles or team neutral table) but the rule doesn't apply if a player has to play on that neutral table in an 'official' match or game - that would include a Lewes league match for instance - Jean, I hope that clarifies that point?

Reading between the lines of the above posts, am I right in assuming that Brighton League rules prohibit practice by away players on the day of a league match?

If so, that makes it clear what is and what isn't acceptable in your league. We don't have any rule at all in Mid Sussex, therefore it is down to what has become custom over the years - hence the reason for raising this public debate.

Like Sparky, if the rest of Mid Sussex league thinks it is fine to practice the day before a match, I would like to avail myself of that opportunity too.

[Josie]

Just to butt in on this one - and I know it's nothing to do with me - but thought I'd put my 2p worth in!!! ;)

In Surrey I don't think we have a rule about it - but generally it's accepted that you don't play on a table for 1 week beforehand if at all feasible. In other words - if you have another match on that table (whether it be interleague or a competition match) then it doesn't matter - you can play away. It would be counted as bad sport to play it in "practice" - i.e. just popping in and having a game or two.

That said, however, I personally don't think it really matters. I think it's more important to encourage the pubs that have tables and the more money they take from the table the more likely they are to keep it! In my opinion it doesn't sound like BB Warrior meant any harm. I don't know him so can't comment on him generally, but if somebody's keen enough to go and practice, and they have the time, then as long as it's not on the same day as the match - then why not? Tables are normally made "match ready" on the day or at the earliest the night before a match. By that I don't mean adjusting it to suit the home team - but the ironing and cleaning etc. This does change how a table plays and somebody practicing on a table before this does not necessarily give them very much advantage!

What I was more interested in was that you have tables in clubs and you're not allowed to practice on them?!!!!! In Surrey clubs are more than welcome into the league - but they must allow league members in to play and practice on their table. It would be an unfair advantage if we weren't allowed to practice on that one table just because it belonged to a club! 8-)

[Sparky]

Thank you Josie, it is good to hear that one other league considers a week as suitable time to practise before a match and agree that we should all do as much as possible to encourage our game but surely it is best to have a code (a strict rule would be difficult to administer) that all can abide by or else there will be problems when people disagree about what is correct, just as is happening now.

I also think there is an advantage in practising on an away table the night before a match.

Your idea about clubs allowing league members entrance is a good one but I know some clubs are very strict about allowing non-club members entry without a member to sign them in to accept responsibility for them and comply with the law, is this not a problem for some Redhill clubs.

[Josie]

sparky said:

Your idea about clubs allowing league members entrance is a good one but I know some clubs are very strict about allowing non-club members entry without a member to sign them in to accept responsibility for them and comply with the law, is this not a problem for some Redhill clubs.

Well I always thought the rules in Surrey were that if you have a table in a club you must let league members in to practice. I don't know for a fact that that is the rules - but I've been into clubs and practiced and had no problems about being signed in. Could just be that I've been playing for so many years my face is known!!!! :P

charlady said:

Like Sparky, if the rest of Mid Sussex league thinks it is fine to practice the day before a match, I would like to avail myself of that opportunity too.

You - or indeed any member of a Mid Sussex team - would certainly be most welcome to look in at the Handcross at any time - even the lunchtime of the same day of the match - as quite frankly they could do with the extra trade.
Not being a member shouldn't be a problem, just say you're there for the bar billiards and are considering becoming a member.
They may give you a form to take away but you won't be chased for its return.
The table will play completely different that evening if my team have a match of course - as it will be cleaner, truer and faster. ;)

[Ros]

tommo said:

You - or indeed any member of a Mid Sussex team - would certainly be most welcome to look in at the Handcross at any time - even the lunchtime of the same day of the match - as quite frankly they could do with the extra trade.
Not being a member shouldn't be a problem, just say you're there for the bar billiards and are considering becoming a member.
They may give you a form to take away but you won't be chased for its return.
The table will play completely different that evening if my team have a match of course - as it will be cleaner, truer and faster. ;)

That is a most generous offer tommo :) and one that I will almost certainly avail myself of sometime, although certainly not on the lunchtime before a match ;)

charlady said:

Reading between the lines of the above posts, am I right in assuming that Brighton League rules prohibit practice by away players on the day of a league match?

I will answer my own question, I have found the rule at the Brighton Bar Billiards web site:
"D7. No member of the Away Team is allowed to practice on the Match Table on the day of the match."

Therefore by (fairly clear) implication, it is perfectly acceptable for a Brighton League player to practice on an away table the day before a match.

To reiterate, we have no such rule in Mid Sussex league, and by custom I believe most people have thought it acceptable to practice on a table up to about a week before a league match.

Should we have a rule? Or maybe a code of behaviour? If so, should it be the same as Brighton's - not on the day, or maybe not within 24 hours, or a longer period like a week?

I think we need something, just so everyone has the same opportunities and restrictions.

Then how far do we go? For instance, would it be acceptable for an away player to turn up on the night before a match, and, finding the home team preparing the table or practising, stick his pound(s) on the table to take a game or two (preventing home team practice) and spend the rest of the evening watching the home team play? (not practising within 24 hours would probably prevent that one)

[Lord Cheeky]

May i ask where abouts this Sportsman pub is as i would like to visit it and play the table even better would be a list of tables i could play in the area!

[Chunky Monkey]

it is in Goddards Green. if you came off the A23 at Hickstead and headed towards Burgess Hill at the 1st roundabout take the 3rd exit signed Hurstpierpoint and the pub is about 150 yards on left at the cross roads.

It is a very nice pub. and would be extreamly welcomed by the bar staff.

[Ros]

kev said:

it is in Goddards Green. if you came off the A23 at Hickstead and headed towards Burgess Hill at the 1st roundabout take the 3rd exit signed Hurstpierpoint and the pub is about 150 yards on left at the cross roads.

It is a very nice pub. and would be extreamly welcomed by the bar staff.

The reaper's directions are excellent, just to add that the turning you want off the A23 is the A3100 by the Shell services. It would literally be a 5 minute journey from the A23 turning.

You would also be most welcomed by the team if we happened to be around, indeed if you want company I would be happy to give you a game or three! (Will pm you my phone numbers)

Other pub venues in our league:
Greyhound at Keymer (always a warm welcome there)
Plough at Lower Beeding (landlord very keen player)
Brewers, Watermill, Windmill all in Burgess Hill
White Horse in Ditchling

Then there are tommo's kind instructions on how to get into Handcross Social Club. The other three venues are all in clubs, where I think you would have to contact a member to be signed in.

[Lord Cheeky]

Thank you i am sure i will be visiting them in the very near future, i have played the Handcross social Club a couple of times in Interleague and found it a very good top.

[BB Warrior]

I would agree with the BB Reaper, The Sportsman is a nice place to play Bar Billiards! :-)

A few other locations in the same sort of area which have tables and are all in the Mid-Sussex League:-

The Brewers Arms, London Road in Burgess Hill
The Watermill and The Windmill pubs are both in Leylands Road, Burgess Hill. (The Watermill is a better table in my opinion!)
The Greyhound, Keymer Road in Keymer. (on the road from Hassocks to Ditchling) This is also a very nice pub, good table with consistantly high scores.
The White Horse in Ditchling (keep going along the road from the Greyhound, pub is on the right as you head into Ditchling village). Very friendly pub, decent food but the table is tricky....!!

Mid-Sussex matches are played on Wednesday evenings, but most of these tables would be free on other nights apart from the Brewers who have 2 teams in the Lewes League on Mondays.

Hope this helps, enjoy your visits!

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

If I may offer my own thought on this matter!

Rules to Stop/Restrict players playing!! Don't be daft!