Checkers and Markers

(moved from Lewes thread "League Week 11")

Apr 3, 2012 22:24:53 GMT Alan Messer said:

Not sure why Dave's post was moderated, but would like to say that the scorer of any game is the sole arbiter of the rules, and whatever he/she decides is the outcome and nothing else matters. So although disappointed at losing a crucial break , my learning point is that I should listen more closely to the scorer not the voices in my head. No sour grapes from me.

So no axe to grind, then, Alan. :o

The inevitable verdict must be one of 'misadventure'.

A "told you so" comes from Margo, who at an AGM a couple of years ago (in Mid Sussex) pointed out the existence of SCBBA Playing Rule 31 on the subject of Scorers, which after mentioning that he is 'sole arbiter' goes on to say:

h)    A Marker should be appointed to record the progressive scores on the scoreboard at the end of each break.

i)      The Marker should check the score as it is called out by the Scorer and should draw to his attention to any discrepancy at the earliest convenient time.

This concept of a scorer and a marker seems to be completely overlooked in all the leagues of Sussex, yet it seems perfectly logical and works perfectly in the Redhill League - one calls out and one checks and puts the scores up.

So the moral of the story is - appoint your marker, unwelcome as this may be (went down like a lead balloon when we first tried it). Otherwise you're completely in the hands of the scorer and have to abide by his/her decisions whether you consider they're right or wrong.  

 

[gandalf the untidy]

Hi tommo, all leagues that i play in dont provide checkers though the option is always there, eastboure scorers are in the habit of giving visual cues for the 1 up aswell as saying it (placing a finger on the rail), this obviously assists the player and spectators in recognising the 1 up call, this happened to me only last week when scoring BJSF captains final, I had miscounted after a distraction and called 1up after only 2 break shots, i'm sure this happens quite often and generally if the call is LOUD enough (i've noticed that losts of scorers score very quietly, which i think is a major factor in these hiccups) a correction can easily be made.

regs cs



[edit -  moved across from Lewes thread "League week 11"  - tommo]

You score a bullseye with the word 'option', Gandalf.

To ratify what goes on throughout Sussex leagues, the addition of the word (Optional) after Rule 31(h) seems advisable.

It is fortuitous that such an element of trust exists in Sussex that the Marker can be dispensed with (as long as the Scorer is 'competent' as per 31(a)) - and long may that continue ! 8-)

[Chris_Sav]

Apr 5, 2012 8:24:43 GMT tommo III said:

It is fortuitous that such an element of trust exists in Sussex that the Marker can be dispensed with (as long as the Scorer is 'competent' as per 31(a)) - and long may that continue ! 8-)

The problem is 'Trust' becomes custom and practice as no one particular wants to score and that means that the score/marker is from one team only which is fine until the effluent hits the fan-blade.

I use the sliding three coins on the cushion indication method and I actually have one player in my league that objects to it!!

However, as with ability at the game, some are better scorers than others and its only a pub game.

Sav.

[iang]

Apr 5, 2012 8:39:05 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Apr 5, 2012 8:24:43 GMT tommo III said:

It is fortuitous that such an element of trust exists in Sussex that the Marker can be dispensed with (as long as the Scorer is 'competent' as per 31(a)) - and long may that continue ! 8-)

The problem is 'Trust' becomes custom and practice as no one particular wants to score and that means that the score/marker is from one team only which is fine until the effluent hits the fan-blade.

I use the sliding three coins on the cushion indication method and I actually have one player in my league that objects to it!!

However, as with ability at the game, some are better scorers than others and its only a pub game.

Sav.

I also like the 3 three sliding coins system it's a shame that it isn't used more.

the problem with checkers is getting someone to do it as they are out for a night out & socialise so would mean being busy during 3 games on the night or 2 if the checkers are from the opposition.

[BB Warrior]

Apr 6, 2012 8:49:43 GMT iang said:

the problem with checkers is getting someone to do it as they are out for a night out & socialise so would mean being busy during 3 games on the night or 2 if the checkers are from the opposition.

The checkers should be from the opposition team I would have thought.

I think it is a good idea to have the rule in place, with away teams given the "option" to use it if they wish to, and will be proposing that this is adopted in the Leagues that I play in for next season. ;)

[iang]

Yes it should be the away side that do the checking but most don't want to. It was voted in Mid Sussex after Margo proposed it & I have yet seen a match where it happens even against The Mill House :-*

People do trust the home side to provide a competent scorer I do think that the standard of some of those is poor barely more that a whisper I always try to be clear and make sure that my scores are heard at all times not just on the break shots.

I don't think the three sliding coins would be appropriate for Sussex, where in general we only have two-lane scoreboards, and therefore it is commonplace to use coins to mark the thousands.

I've seen people try to copy it and get in a right old pickle by a) losing track and b) getting one lot of coins mixed up with the other.

Perhaps we should leave the three sliding coins and checker and marker for the National events where breaks are likely to be bigger (and therefore the extra 'control' needed ;D) and where there is the benefit of the 4-lane scoreboard for the progressive thousands.

I am not suggesting that we change anything, only the Rule that we are all contravening, and that can be done by means of the addition of one word in brackets !

Apr 6, 2012 10:25:51 GMT iang said:

Yes it should be the away side that do the checking but most don't want to. It was voted in Mid Sussex after Margo proposed it & I have yet seen a match where it happens even against The Mill House :-*

This is amusing on two counts:

1. At the foot of each Mid Sussex scorecard it now reads "Please use a scorer and a marker for every game - see SCBBA rules".    Which is completely ignored !

2. Our very first game after this was 'adopted' was at Clayton and Keymer.  I perched myself on the opposite side of the table to the home scorer and said "I'll call, you can put up". The scorer refused and insisted on doing the whole job while I sat there meekly (but still checking and mutely nodding my head at strategic intervals !) ;D

[iang]

Ha Ha so is that the only time since it was addopted in MS that it has been attempted or does it happen in matches elsewhere.
I would not object on the 9/5/12 ;D

Yes, we haven't bothered since. ::)

But I think that the mere mention at the AGM seems to have had the desired effect, as we don't seem to have the problems we used to have with incompetent scorers (touch wood !).

In the past I've even suffered an instance where the scorer cocked up in three different ways during one single game (did me out of a thousand; put the scores up on the wrong side; and habitually miscounted giving my opponent an extra 100 here and there and 100 less for me when it was my turn.

So IMHO it's useful to have the rule there as a deterrent. :-/

[bigtj]

Think the problem lays with us all getting older and the old mind wonders when scoring!!! Totally agree though it is up to the away team to if they so wish use a checker and it does not really matter if it upsets some people as it is arule within the rule set. If as an away side you do not take up the oposition then you have no beefs if you disagree with a call as you have chosen to put your trust in the scorer.

I would like to think that people do not deliberately cheat, but mistakes are only human nature. Again I think the scorer must make the one up clearly audible, and prehaps the finger on the table to show the one up is due is agood idea.

[H]

Maybe its just what I'm used to, but when I'm in the zone and going for a break I find both the coin method and the finger tapping highly distracting!

[spudgun]

Hi Tommo.

I see that your team will be visiting us on Wednesday. If you wish to appoint checkers then I cant see that we are going to object overmuch. I tend to score a lot of the matches at home because I am one of the few nutters who actually enjoys scoring (must like the routine). If you wish to join me at the side of the table then please be my guest!

Thanks Spud, but I think the words 'element of trust' would apply to your sporting team more than to most others.

Looking forward to a good match on Wednesday played in the usual friendly atmosphere. 8-)

[margo]

Apr 6, 2012 10:31:10 GMT tommo III said:

I don't think the three sliding coins would be appropriate for Sussex

the thing is with the coins is you may think he has three thousand on the side of the table but in actual fact its the three down coins.  so not good from the spectator's point of view. :-/

[davejones]

I use three buttons for the breaks and coins for the thousands so that you can tell the difference between the two!

Nah, that's no good when scoring a Kevin Hall break......once the coins are exhausted, any loose buttons are used, followed by the tearing up of a beermat into a dozen pieces.  I've been known to remove rings. pendants, even my watch.  So I'm afraid buttons and coins count as the same! ;D ;D ;D