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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2008 19:08:12 GMT
Yeah, Northants have got their skittles, shmittles............... Ah Northamptonshire skittles...takes me back to my childhood (family is from Northampton originally!) ..........and in Lewes you've got your Toads, H ! Explains a lot !
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Post by Sparky on Oct 25, 2008 19:16:34 GMT
Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break One-up Touch Up! There's a 20k break right there. I'd better start practising as I now know what I've been doing wrong all this time............might have trouble with the 'Touch Up' though ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Secretary J.B.B.L. on Oct 25, 2008 21:41:28 GMT
I thought I would join in the discussion, even though the 'Oxford' isn't played in Jersey to much but due to the World Championships coming up, playing off the spot and all the other subjects brought up in this thread I would mention the below.
I have successfully managed to get the 'International' and Jersey v Guernsey match on a 5 minute local news segment but that is it. I have tried to contact Sky Sports, Eurosport and a couple of other sports channels that appear on Sky without any responses at all. It appears that if it isn't a main stream sport the big corporations don't give a dam as they can't make anything out of it.
I have even tried to contact individual programmes - Trans World Sport - they are willing to show 5 minute segments on their show of 'Extreme Ironing' but still had no luck.
I don't think 'banning' a shot and making the game more variable will assist, even changing the rules, it is unfortunately a game that is dieing out (especially in the CI) and it will take something extreme to change that trend.
I'm all for change to make the game successful and therefore lasting but it also has to keep the current players interested and make more 'newcomers' willing to try it out due to catching their eye.
See you all soon Sean
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Post by Herr von Puebik on Oct 25, 2008 23:09:11 GMT
The Northants shot should be banned.....split shot...put the red 2" behind the 50 hole and put the white 3" in front of the 100 hole :-X :P........and that's not just the Colemanator we can all do it ;D ;D
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Post by Q on Oct 25, 2008 23:32:08 GMT
Yeah, Northants have got their skittles, shmittles............... What about Crawley and its noble and mighty sport of MARBLES, World Championships staged each Easter at the Greyhound Pub. Even has TV coverage: www.blinkx.com/video/world-marble-championships/WCL4NsMwtwfIjRicSWnbVg ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Note - apologies if this link doesn't work like it should, it's a bit erratic, sometimes an advert cuts in.Only if they find the landlord in time ;D If I heard right he had run off with the takings, closing the pub at a moments notice..... has it opened again yet Clive?
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Post by Q on Oct 25, 2008 23:35:30 GMT
The Northants shot should be banned.....split shot...put the red 2" behind the 50 hole and put the white 3" in front of the 100 hole :-X :P........and that's not just the Colemanator we can all do it ;D ;D Kipling points deserved for that Mick :-*
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Post by iang on Oct 26, 2008 10:33:53 GMT
Yeah, Northants have got their skittles, shmittles............... What about Crawley and its noble and mighty sport of MARBLES, World Championships staged each Easter at the Greyhound Pub. Even has TV coverage: www.blinkx.com/video/world-marble-championships/WCL4NsMwtwfIjRicSWnbVg ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Note - apologies if this link doesn't work like it should, it's a bit erratic, sometimes an advert cuts in.Only if they find the landlord in time ;D If I heard right he had run off with the takings, closing the pub at a moments notice..... has it opened again yet Clive? No it hasn't it's got those big concrete blocks outside & a sign up "Business opportunity"
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 27, 2008 10:07:48 GMT
Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break Break One-up Split Break Break One-up Touch Up!
There's a 20k break right there. I'd better start practising as I now know what I've been doing wrong all this time............might have trouble with the 'Touch Up' though ;D ;D ;DThink you'll find you'll only have scored 15050 on the above sequence even if you managed all of it. ;D 8-) Sav
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Post by H on Oct 27, 2008 10:13:13 GMT
I obviously miscounted! Bah!
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Oct 27, 2008 10:22:16 GMT
I'd better start practising as I now know what I've been doing wrong all this time............might have trouble with the 'Touch Up' though ;D ;D ;D Think you'll find you'll only have scored 15050 on the above sequence even if you managed all of it. ;D 8-) Sav Now heres a question how many of us are now going to count it? ;D I Did ;D ;D ;D and i agree with Sav ;)
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Julian Dale
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Post by Julian Dale on Oct 27, 2008 11:36:00 GMT
I agree that a poll should be set up to get a clearer picture of what people think. It's clear this thread has stirred up a lot of interest which suggests it is an important topic! It's also clear that it's not a black and white situation, and there has been several suggestions as to how things might be changed (if they need to be), so let's come up with what options we want within a poll. Here's some suggestions:
A) We keep the current rules, for all competitions, not changing anything. B) We keep the current rules for most competitions, but use one or two tournaments (or a summer league) as an experiment using a different set of rules (yet to be decided). C) We keep the current rules but adjust tournaments to either play two legs or permit the breaking player to use a maximum of half the table time for his first visit. D) We work to find a new set of rules that satisfies all of the criteria that we want, such as to make the game more competitive, less break biased, more accessible for new players, potential for more media interest, etc...
Obviously some of those options need further debate as to the details, but I think we need to establish which of these routes to focus on, as the thread has meandered from one extreme to the other and as such hasn't really got us very far.
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Post by specialone on Oct 27, 2008 11:52:07 GMT
T V coverage is just a non starter. Even a lot of people who love the game find the watching of it rather tedious, especially the split. The problem is that the game, especially at the top level is not won by the playing of a great and exiting shot. It is won by not playing a bad shot over a long period of time. Actually getting bored while I type this. I think we must accept we all have things we enjoy doing, that are not suitable for showing on T V, I know Ihave. Secialone
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 12:29:01 GMT
I still think there is room to accomodate a poll of some sort on this one. Even if it's a simple thing like do you think that a slight tweak to the rules is timely, yes or no.
The playing rules in their current format have stayed largely the same for more than 30 years, the last really radical change taking place in the 1970's when the "you must use the red ball whenever it is available as the cue ball" rule was rescinded.
Consider that the game of Pool seemed to change its rules about what happens after a foul shot every year ! (Which is really why I got bored with it and stopped playing)
I have looked back over the suggestions and am rather warming to the one about having to play an extra 'holding' one-up after the one-up shot !
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Julian Dale
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Post by Julian Dale on Oct 27, 2008 13:23:57 GMT
Consider that the game of Pool seemed to change its rules about what happens after a foul shot every year ! (Which is really why I got bored with it and stopped playing) I've played pool in various leagues using what I would call old rules and the new rules. The rules may have been tweaked and changed several times but in the end it is for the benefit of the game as a whole. I remember a typical league game took 30 minute under the old rules, whereas under the new rules, games rarely last longer than 20 minutes, and are often finished in 10 minutes or less. The game is faster, less bogged down by playing tap-up snookers and is a lot more entertaining for the average player to both play and watch. If they continued to play the old rules, I wouldn't play in a league, even though I love playing pool more than any other game, including (sadly) bar billiards. I have looked back over the suggestions and am rather warming to the one about having to play an extra 'holding' one-up after the one-up shot ! Me too! I think that would be a minor tweak that would be very simple to implement and enforce, and would add the additional element of variation, difficulty and risk (on some tables perhaps more than others) without taking away the opportunity for the very best players to run the table out. Scorers are used to counting in threes, so you could even make it so that you have to leave one up a third time before you are allowed to pot both. The call after the second one-up shot could be 'one-up twice', then after playing a third shot to leave a ball up you would call 'one-up three times, free table', after which you can do what you like to get the break back.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 15:09:44 GMT
Makes perfect sense.
The best attribute about this very simple tweak would be that it requires mastery of a little stun shot to leave the one-up in the same place, or better. The best players would easily adapt to it, but it's a slight pitfall and the game wouldn't come across as quite so mechanical.
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Julian Dale
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Post by Julian Dale on Oct 27, 2008 17:09:51 GMT
This rule would affect some tables more than others, and may well lead to using a stun shot (though perhaps not on the table I'm most familiar with), but what it would definitely mean is that you'd have to be more accurate with the first one-up as the second one-up shot could leave the ball in a variety of places, particularly if you didn't leave yourself with a straight pot to the 50 pocket.
I don't think it will make too much difference to the top players as they must already be well practised at playing accurate one-up shots, but there will be an increased chance of them making a mistake and playing a recovery shot, and if that makes for a slightly more interesting game to play and watch then surely it's a good thing!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 21:32:54 GMT
Taking the extra one-up shot can actually take you up to 20k in two fewer shots (141) than in the traditional three-down one-up, split method (143 shots).
This is because the extra shot swaps the red and white balls around and you have the red to hand as the cue-ball for the split into the 100 hole.
There is very little in it, both systems taking : 18 shots to 2550 29 shots to 4000 40 shots to 5600 46 shots to 6450 52 shots to 7300 58 shots to 8150 65 shots to 9100 and 71 shots to 9950 ……and both systems require 72 shots to pass the 10,000 mark.
But thence-forward the ‘new’ system comes into its own, the only further matches being : 77 shots to 10,800 and 83 shots to 11,650.
Once you get beyond 20k the difference is more pronounced, as 150 shots using three-down one-up split makes exactly 21,000 whereas with the extra one-up, the yield is 21,250.
Not convinced ? The difference is only marginal, but the proof is there to see if you compare the average ball score method for the traditional method: (150+150+150+50+200)/5 = average 140 per ball against the extra one-up method: (150+150+150+50+100+250)/6 = average 141 and two thirds !
I have often wondered why the top players haven’t adopted this method as it is very unlikely that no-one has yet considered it. And the reason is almost certain to be that keeping things simple makes for better rhythm and ultimately for a faster rate of progress without the need to think about the placement of the holding shot.
But the joy about this type of proposed change is that the top players are capable of taking on the challenge without losing the high-scoring opportunity.
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Post by fazza on Oct 28, 2008 8:57:05 GMT
Who was the last person to try and get this game on the telly seriously? Can't remember who that would've been!!!!! Oh, it was me! Talks with "Big Breakfast" on Channel 4 years ago led them to invite someone on there the day before Jersey in the 90s. I could not go, and everyone else refused. They even offered a helicopter ride to the airport afterwards. Well, ok, the "seriously" bit may not have been carried out on THAT programme but it would have given someone the opportunity to advertise the game. Opportunity lost. My case is rested!!!!
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 28, 2008 9:28:48 GMT
Has anybody got the time during the day to contact Sky? Write a letter, meet persons etc. They even show belgian billiards >:( on there, so I'm sure that they would consider this game in one form or another?
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 28, 2008 10:21:11 GMT
Done
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Julian Dale
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Yes, my teeth really are that white ;-)
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Post by Julian Dale on Oct 28, 2008 10:59:54 GMT
I'm not sure bar billiards will ever make it onto TV, unless it's a 5 minute piece covering the world championship. So, I was thinking about simpler ideas to promote the game and make it more appealing for new players...
We have a rules sheet in a picture frame just above the table (I believe supplied by Bar Billiards Ltd), but to be honest very few of the league players look at it, let alone someone who might be new to the game. Our table in the Nelsons Head is positioned in a part of the pub where people walk by on their way to the toilets, the smoking area or to the patio garden area. We get a lot of people pausing for a minute as they go past, clearly intrigued as to what's going on as they may have never seen a table before, let alone anyone playing on it properly. Occasionally they ask questions about the game which we always answer with as much enthusiasm as we can muster, encouraging them to try the game (after the match has finished obviously). I doubt many of them do.
The Nelsons Head is a busy pub that gets a lot of people stood in and around the table (which often means you can't play as it's too busy), but not many people play the game as I'm sure they either don't know how to play or are afraid of doing something they shouldn't. If we had a poster style explanation of the game that made it easy for a newbie to understand, then maybe they will pick up a cue and try it out. Enough people know about pool to play the game, even if they don't know many of the actual rules. It's my feeling that not enough people know the basics of bar billiards to have the confidence to try it.
Has anybody got an A4 size poster that explains the very basics of how to play the game, written in simple terms?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2008 12:42:27 GMT
Our table in the Nelsons Head is positioned in a part of the pub where people walk by on their way to the toilets, the smoking area or to the patio garden area. We get a lot of people pausing for a minute as they go past, clearly intrigued as to what's going on as they may have never seen a table before, let alone anyone playing on it properly. Occasionally they ask questions about the game which we always answer with as much enthusiasm as we can muster, encouraging them to try the game (after the match has finished obviously). I doubt many of them do. The Nelsons Head is a busy pub that gets a lot of people stood in and around the table (which often means you can't play as it's too busy), but not many people play the game as I'm sure they either don't know how to play or are afraid of doing something they shouldn't. You may be interested to read our assessment of your pub: On our way to Norfolk last week, wifey and I decided on a slight detour to St Ives for a spot of lunch at the Nelsons Head. The pub was not that easy to find - I counted at least nine for what is a relatively small town, and at one stage we found ourselves in a dead end having driven down through the market on market day ! :-[ Anyway - what a great pub. Really spacious and perfect for bar billiards. After a delicious jacket potato with prawn filler, and armed with glasses of cider, we had a game on the table, a well-maintained Jelkes. Very fast on the break, a shade downhill. But otherwise very 'true' and the balls easy to get back. The split shot goes better from the left hand side of the D. Well, that's my assessment after just one game where we got 8k between us before continuing our onwards journey. Amusing sign on the wall in front of the table "POACHERS WILL BE SHOT" - also an amusing framed photograph of four women each nursing a pig. :) Anyway, nice atmosphere pub. Recommended. Regarding the Rules, most people find the Laminated card sufficient - there is usually one supplied with the table. But I've also seen framed posters of the rules from 70 years ago with diagrams, which are collector's items. For the 21st century equivalent, why not download the current rules from the AEBBA site and stick them on a laminated card ? They should look quite smart with the AEBBA logo included as part of the header.
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 28, 2008 13:32:33 GMT
Well done that man, any details?
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Julian Dale
Full Forum Member
Yes, my teeth really are that white ;-)
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Post by Julian Dale on Oct 28, 2008 14:03:41 GMT
Not a bad assessment of the pub. It is hard for non-locals to find, especially given the one-way system and pedestrianising of the one road that links the two halves of the town centre. It is positioned right in the middle of the town's late-night establishments, so it makes for an ideal meeting place, what I would call a stepping stone pub, especially in Summer.
Like I said, we have the rules in a frame right beside the table, but it looks like a terms and conditions legal document, so isn't likely to be read by a casual pub-goer. What I'm after is a beginners 'getting started' guide type thing, that doesn't go into too much detail and is aimed at getting people to play on a table for the first time.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 28, 2008 14:21:31 GMT
Well done that man, any details? See if we get the courtesy of a reply!! Sav.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2008 17:58:33 GMT
This stems from the Ban the "Oxford shot".
Is Bar Billiards too easy for top players?
Do we need rule changes to even the playing field?
Well here is my debate for the 1st Question,
No, KT himself wouldn't admit Bar Billiards is too easy. Top players win because they deserve to, not because of some handicap or rule change to benefit the lower player.
2nd Question,
Do we need or is it do we want! We don't need rule changes, players want a rule change. This is wrong, the split shot was introduced as it was "needed" to make the players use skill. I can only see this potential rule change used to assist in the lower players gaining more chance.
Even if we did change the rules, the top players would still outplay the lower players so where does it end?
I believe Bar Billiards is not in a position at this time to "NEED" a rule change.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2008 20:57:50 GMT
Is Bar Billiards too easy for top players? Hopefully a few of them will reply, Johnny ! ;)
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Post by specialone on Oct 31, 2008 22:10:49 GMT
Some time in the late 90s I played in a one day inter league in Brighton. One of the tables was covered with simonise. This is usually used for very fast championship pool tables. It was a bit of an experiment by Tarrot. I was drawn to play on this table, and it was a scary experience. I spent an age trying to bank a 2k break, a huge break on this table. It occured to me then, that this could be the future of Bar Bills at the top end of the sport. No rule changes, just a really fast surface to play on. Have not seen one since. The big problem with this is that it is so fast it needs to be set up very straight. Can anyone else remember playing on this top. The venue had a bowls green out the back, and was not far from The Shakespere. The other big problem with the game, is the desire to eliminate Whippy Pockets. A thread a few months, ago showed this to be the thing people disliked most about tables. I have even played on a table, where the pockets have had groves scored into them to make them less Whippy. I have a player in my team, who is a decent player, but will never set the world alight. However he is the most accurate potter I have played with, and the best judge of pace I have ever seen. If you take whippy pockets out of the game, his skill is no longer an advantage. I have no problem with sitting and watching someone play the table out against me, it happens. But if the 100 hole has a degree of dificulty, I will sit and wait. and maybe shit will happen. Anyone who knows me will be aware I refuse to pass any comment on an away table. However, without naming the venue, in the last few months I have played on a table with a great reputation. The break and the split goes a treat, but the table roles off badly. All the time tables are set up like this, the game will apear to be too easy for some players. Fast, but fair tables, with whippy pockets, at the top end of the sport, and tables that are set up to be true, rather than easy, for league games. That is my answer. Thethoutfullone
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Post by Colemanator on Nov 1, 2008 11:27:39 GMT
What if we adopted a 'darts approach' you go to the table with three 'scoring shots' and then come off, say the person starts the game with three straight breaks and then comes off, the opponent goes on and does the same as it's even break, when the first person goes back, his shot is one up and then carries on for the next two shots. Should the first or the second shot be missed you just come off (unlike darts) and you opponent goes on. :-X
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2008 11:49:34 GMT
Hopefully a few of them will reply, Johnny ! ;) :-/ Try not to apply remarks on topic as this is a good thread to open peoples eyes to players who are called "unbeatable".
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