What makes a good player ?

What makes a good player ?

1. Good technique (eg stance, cue action, application of side, etc)

2. Accuracy in choice of shots

3. The ability to concentrate for the whole game

4. The ability to read a table and compensate/judge the pace etc


When it comes down to it, of course, other factors can decide success or failure - such as luck, who you're playing, having the break or not and even how you feel on the day.

But from 1,2,3 and 4 above, what percentage share of relevance would you consider each factor to have ? And are there others that I have missed ?

I'll have first go. 1, 65% 2, 15% 3, 10% 4, 10%

Although your categories to cover a tremendous amount can I clarify?

Does the category 'ability to concentrate.......' also mean to keep nerves in check pre and during the game? Because that, for me, is a big factor. It is why I used to lose many games. (Not that I win any now!!) :)

Wow this is a great topic :)

I would also say my nerves are my weak spot :'(

Well this is MY assesment of me:

1) 75% (This is my best attribute by far)
2) 60% (have been known to be too ambitious ::))
3) 40% (Nerves, or trying to tell Keith the Forum is FREE) ::)
4) 50% (Takes me a night to read a table :()

I am not brilliant but one day 100% will be the way of "The Split" 8-)

[Chris_Sav]

sithlord said:

Wow this is a great topic :)

I would also say my nerves are my weak spot :'(

Well this is MY assesment of me:

1) 75% (This is my best attribute by far)
2) 60% (have been known to be too ambitious ::))
3) 40% (Nerves, or trying to tell Keith the Forum is FREE) ::)
4) 50% (Takes me a night to read a table :()

I am not brilliant but one day 100% will be the way of "The Split" 8-)

JG!!!! you are 225% a bar billiard player ;D

I think 2 & 4 are basically the same thing and egree control of nerves is also vital.

To clarify, I think Sav got the gist of where I was coming from.
The idea, being, what goes into the make-up of any great player, rather that assessing ourselves individually. The sum total should not exceed 100%.

I would be interested to know what, say, Milko counts as being more important - good technique vs choice of shot ?

The ability to overcome nerves (aka keeping one's bottle) comes under ability to concentrate - but as reformedcharacter comments, the categories cover a diversity of contentions.

Perhaps I should have entitled it "What makes a great player ?"

I have observed that for the top Surrey players, correct choice of shot seems paramount, whereas the ability to concentrate seems to be the main consideration for the top Sussex ones.

I am going to slap myself :'(

I did it by using percentage on the actual attribute, I didn't realise it was for all attribute combined! ::)

I will redo it as:

1) 50%
2) 20%
3) 20%
4) 10%

I beleive technique in Bar Billiards is the difference to be honest!

Sorry before, what an absolute lemon ::) :D

No problemo, JG.
Earlier you said in category four it can take you all night to read a table. That's the bit you need to work on, then, to become a great.
At the top level (Berks Open could be a revelation on this) you sometimes only get one chance and you have to take it. The 'greats' seem to have a happy knack of watching how the cushions react from their first shot, and soon after are able to judge the pace, the roll of the table, how to adjust on the one-up to leave the best possible position for the split, etc etc.
Concentration used to be my weak point. Letting my mind wander and eventually playing a weak or blase shot. Now I think I've got that one nailed down, and need to brush up on my technique more and ability to read and adjust to a table.

[fazza]

With my serious hat on, for a change, these percentages do depend on the player you are talking about as many real top players would probably have stronger percentages in different departments.

If KT could be prevented from reading this (as I hate to blow his trumpet, I will leave that to others ;)) his technique is out-bloody-standing as you would expect.

Mine is, truthfully, not great. My best attribute would normally be in reading a table and compensating. Trouble is that sometimes you need to have a couple of goes, and sometimes that does not happen if you are playing one or two names I could (but won't) mention.

Stance is important and yet one recent Open finalist always stands with his feet flush together, side by side, and looks very awkward in my very humble opinion. One former Open winner always seems so off-balance, but seems to be adapting a "modern style" of looking a little "cack-footed" (it is like "cack-handed" only nearer the floor).

Concentration disintegrates with age, I find. Yet, in contrast, "better choice of shots" comes with experience.

So, firmly sitting on the fence (for a change, again), I would not wish to put percentages on this, but keenly wait to see how others view it.

No one has mentioned drinking.

On some nights a beer or two can help me. Nerves and pain relief are examples of how this works.
On other nights being completely sober can help. Choosing shots and pace of the table.
The problem is that I never know until after the game which would have been better on the night.

Regg3y, without meaning to sound patronising, nerves have to be conquered as they can get in the way of success.

Fazza's observations are very astute. Agreed that KT's perfect technique plays a large part in his success. Milko also has phenominal technique, but because he plays at such speed can sometimes get out of position, but then almost invariably retrieves with a "good choice of shot".

What bugs me is not being able to play fast enough: I can score at 1000 a minute (played my home table right out the other night with 16850) but I can't get a sniff of 20k. The great players seem to have the ability to play perfect shots instinctively with the combined ability to concentrate for the entire game !

[NigelS]

In my opinion technique is not so important in bar billiards as other cue sports. If we had perfect cue actions we would be playing snooker (for a lot more money!). However, I would say that rhythm is more important, a good rhythm generates speed and if you can play consistent shots at speed I think that helps enormously. I personally do not think I have a great cue action, but I know a can play quick and play a fairly accurate shot without having to take a lot of time to cue it up.

The other thing that makes a good player is knowledge and that can only be gained over time, even a very good snooker player (who would have to have a near perfect technique or cue action) could not come into the bar billiards world and just beat the top players. He would lack the knowledge the top players have and play the wrong shots and make wrong choices. This has been evident in the pool world where top snooker players have come second best to experienced pool players, who use their knowledge of the game to consistently beat their snooker rivals.

So how about putting a percentage on it then Nigel, as you have covered everything more or less ?
Obviously 2) is very important - the choice of shot gained through experience/knowledge.
And 3) as well if you count a good rhythm in with being able to concentrate.

[NigelS]

Ok Tommo this is what I would put percentage wise

1. Good technique (eg stance, cue action, application of side, etc) - 25%
2. Accuracy in choice of shots - 35%
3. The ability to concentrate for the whole game - 10%
4. The ability to read a table and compensate/judge the pace etc - 30%

2 and 4 all come down to knowledge and experience which I said are the most important attributes. The ability to concentrate for long periods do deteriate with age and that does effect standard of play. And technique, whilst important, I think a text book cue action is not needed so much as in other cue sports. However, a fast rhythm does help which I would count as technique rather than concentration.

Thanks Nigel for providing your angle on it. I hope many more of the top-class players (yes we have them on this Forum !) will join in and give their views also.
And we should take their views on face value, without decrying what they've said, or try and influence them otherwise.
I find your apportionment interesting, especially as you have given great importance to 2) and 4). Agree with you on your comment that text book action is not imperative, though it helps younger players get good. For old 'uns like me it is important to feel relaxed whilst at the table.
I am surprised though that you only give 10% importance to concentration. A 20k player like yourself surely has to concentrate for the whole game ? Your age theory seems to work in reverse on me, I have taught myself to concentrate better recently - before, my mind would wander onto other things not always bar-billiards related whilst on a good break, calling the break to an untimely end. But age can be relevant to fitness and stamina. Eyesight deteriorates and even the muscles of the eyes relax after a hard day.
Has anyone come up with any other factors, or do the four listed cover it, albeit loosely ?

[JB]

Has anyone come up with any other factors, or do the four listed cover it, albeit loosely ?

Belief in yourself. Over the years i have seen so many players lose a game before they start just because of who they are playing or having had a couple of bad games on a particular table

Excellent point - I too have known many a player when I used to play league billiards (hopefully will again soon!) who had a 'mental block' on particular pub tables. There always used to be the odd 'unusual' result on the table at The Dolphin in Wallingford.

It is also very true that people are beaten before they start when drawn against certain players. Apart from his obvious talent - KT, I'm sure, wins many of his games against lower ranked players because they talk themselves out of it before it even starts.

jo said:

Belief in yourself. Over the years i have seen so many players lose a game before they start just because of who they are playing or having had a couple of bad games on a particular table

That's a possible one, Jean : ability to overcome nerves and to retain one's composure. Must count for something, although i suppose loosely it could be covered under concentration (ie shutting everything out).
Doesn't always pay to be over-confident, though !
And sometimes I find you have to gamble on pulling off a particular shot - boldness is often rewarded, whereas "faint heart never won fair lady".

Now you tell me!!

[fazza]

Concentration is low in the %ages, undoubtedly. Sometimes, having a joke with the scorer gets me through a big break and opponents (and teammates) may well think that is a lack of concentration. Not so.

I have been known on occasions to make sure the scorer has to say "69". Don't understand the meaning (of course) but I do (sometimes) try to manipulate my break round to 4s and 9s just for the crack, if you pardon my expression.

I think t be able to do that shows a good player. I'm just happy if they go down the holes!

fazza said:

I have been known on occasions to make sure the scorer has to say "69". Don't understand the meaning (of course)

Ha ha.
I was scoring a game in the Limes Triples for a young girl called Barbara and said "69 - three times - and one up" and she said "sounds like a fun afternoon !" ;D

Nice girl was she? ;)

very tasty. :-*

It's enough to put any man off! :)

If you want an example of how that can happen, read the sixth one down (second part) on the Tales of The Unexpected thread to be found on the General discussion board. ;)

fazza said:

Concentration is low in the %ages, undoubtedly. Sometimes, having a joke with the scorer gets me through a big break and opponents (and teammates) may well think that is a lack of concentration. Not so.

Taking the first part of Pete's quote, not sure everyone would agree. Some of us struggle to concentrate when other things are going on. There was the famous case of Richard being put off by the opposing captain whispering in his ear whilst Richard was on a 10k break with every likelihood of making it 20.

Wifey tells me off whenever I have a larf and a joke with the scorer as I invariably come off soon after. How many of us can retain our composure after having our cue-arm nudged from behind ? >:(I rarely can but there are some players who can take all that in their stride.

I was taught a few tricks as a youngster playing in Billingshurst amongst a team of old men : our captain, Stan, got a stooge (my mate who he didn't like !) to stand there while he showed that if someone nudges your arm you bring the cue sharply back into their stomach - or if they knock your shoe you step back hard on their toe. Both times offering a sincere apology, of course ! ;D

My own bete noir is when my opponent stands alongside me close to the table in full view of me while I'm taking my shot: I always ask him to move.

I have been thinking of this thread none stop, trying to understand the best possible player using the percentages!

Then it struck me, to be a great player you would have all them attributes at the same level and at the highest level, however with only 100% to put between 4 it looks like this:

1) 25%
2) 25%
3) 25%
4) 25%
Though it looks like he/she would be crap, he/she wouldn't be. A great player would have all attributes at the highest level.

That is my final one. Hopefully one day I shall come close to it ;)

[davejones]

fazza said:

I have been known on occasions to make sure the scorer has to say "69".

I prefer 68. You go down on me and I'll owe you one.

Sorry Ladies

That's not playing the game, Dave.

Whatever happened to Quid Quo Pro ? :)

[fazza]

I seemed to have lowered the tone again, for which I ajollopies (?), but I think I would now prefer a 68. I only brought that up to try to explain that, when the tension is high, it is sometimes good to have a laugh with the scorer etc. It SHOULD relax the tension a bit. It works for me, but granted it may not work for all. As long as you can then settle into the rhythm again. My point is that total concentration is not absolutely necessary. Sometimes you find could yourself concentrating hard and possibly miss the scorer saying "one-up", so it is not good to block everything out, but it is not a case of one size fits all.

Having somebody knock your arm is another thing completely, especially "scraggy-haired Manuel" at the De Normandie when he is collecting glasses between tables while the games are in full flow. We will miss that this year.

One attribute that should come into the equation though is "speed". You could be the greatest player in the world with all the other attributes mentioned, but, if you cannot play without cueing up for 5 secs each shot, you will rarely win anything.

It is best to be able to play at ANY speed for different situations, but many, many really good players are "one-paced".

The best way to set a big target (or to chase one) though, in my opinion, is to be able to settle into the basic shots for anything between 2-5 minutes and then, completely unnoticably, gradually speed up.