Richard
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Post by Richard on Oct 11, 2007 9:56:30 GMT
The Preston Brewery Tap won 5 - 0 last night in the Brighton league , as a premier team we give away all 5 breaks.
Our total score was 90,020 has this been done before with no breaks ?
Full match details are on the brighton thread
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 11, 2007 10:25:47 GMT
Maybe a record. I have to say though, in Northants the top teams would not do this to the lower opposition, there is a code of conduct that you touch up after making sure the game is won and let the lower div player have a game, especially if they have travelled to your venue as well.
Any reply from romans B players :-/
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Post by milhouse on Oct 11, 2007 10:55:16 GMT
I agree with you there Colemanator. There are very few people around the Oxford area who do not tap on after getting a winning score, but for the whole team to do this, in my opinion is a disgrace. What incentive do that team now have to carry on playing ? Just because you are playing a lower division opposition, there is no need to go and prove how good you are by doing this. If this would have happened to me when i first started playing, there is no way i would have carried on. Where is the enjoyment in going out and just watching all your opponents do that ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 11:41:49 GMT
Come off it, Milhouse, there's plenty of scores of 20k-plus in the Oxford league as well, Milko and son do it nearly every week. ;)
And there's a saying that once your opponent reaches the point at which the game is safe, every shot played on after that is to your advantage, not his/hers.
These guys have been known to get up to about 19k, leave a split short and then miss it or peg it. Playing against them, I'd rather they did that than 10k and a touch-up which just kills the game stone dead: It's no fun taking your first shot in the knowledge that you can't possibly win.
Just wish they weren't so miserable sometimes, like a team at the Stadium was once when two of us banked a very slow 10k against them - you would have thought they'd lost the match not just won it 3-2 !
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Richard
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Post by Richard on Oct 11, 2007 12:14:00 GMT
If we touch at 10k you have still lost, we gave away all five breaks what else should we do , give them 5k on top and buy them drinks all night !!!
This was a first division team not a 2nd or 3rd so maybe get you facts straight before going in with your comments , three of the players were more than capable of going off with enough against us, just because they missed early we should touch up , I dont think so !! .
Milhouse it is not a disgrace these are players who have been in the league for over 10 years not new people and in the division below us !!!
Point stated
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 11, 2007 12:17:09 GMT
Did you let them buy you drinks as well then :-/
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Post by NigelS on Oct 11, 2007 23:26:20 GMT
I am not surprised we have come in for some critisism for our performane on Wednesday night.
i take issue with the replies above stating that player taps up after getting a winning score to give their opponent a game. The reason for the tap up is to secure the leg for the team. I can't believe that anyone on a 10k break suddenly feels an overwhelming bout of sympathy for their opponent and thinks 'I must give them a go', it is simply a case of playing safe and securing the W. We don't do that in our team because a) 3-2 is enough (legs don't count for points) and b) we have confidence that in our teammates that if anything does go wrong they can get us out of it.
The other side is when you touch up and you then get the break back again, what do you do? Do you go through the facade of missing again on purpose and again and again... Then you will be accused of taking the piss out of your opponent, and being therefore arrogant.
We are in a no win situation here, but the bottom line is that teams don't like playing us because they usually get beat, and the Stadium had exactly the same attitude towards them before us, and yet I always found them the most enjoyable team to play when they were in the Brighton league. However, you will find if a team does beat us, you will get no complaints from us, and you won't find us moaning about having to give away all the breaks etc etc
The team we played on Wednesday had all 5 breaks, are a first division team, and are certainly capable of putting us all under pressure (the 3 I have played before have all beaten me at some time or another), but I have to be honest they seemed beaten before a ball was struck. We have a good table and any team having 5 breaks against us, should have a good chance....but they will have to play well to beat us.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2007 8:59:55 GMT
I think you've summed it up there Nigel. While you're on there you might as well go for it, 'cos you know damned well that, given the chance, your opponent would be doing exactly the same to you.
Playing against a recognised 'novice' being a different matter altogether.
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 12, 2007 9:09:46 GMT
I admit it is rather difficult, I think the guilt thing is more to do with not wanting to lose players from the league if they can only see that turning up and getting no chance (point taken about having all the breaks though) and then buying their victor a pint, paying subs and paying for sandwiches is a poor night out and is it worth it. I have in the recent past, played until i thought 'well that's enough' and then lost the game :'(
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2007 9:37:13 GMT
I can see that side of it as well, Ian.
Whilst in semi-retirement I turned out for Horsham one night to play a one-off game to make the numbers up. Drove ten miles out of my way to pick half of the team up in my car, took 'em down to the Stadium, Brighton, bought a round of drinks. Played the last game against Steve Mariner, his break on his own table. Stood there holding my cue for 20 minutes while he played the table out for 28k, which I think remains an all-time record for Sussex Interleague. Drove 'em all back including the ten miles out of my way. Cheers, fellas.
Even so, I did enjoy it in a masochistic sort of way !
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 12, 2007 9:39:08 GMT
I reckon that you deserve some tart points for that Tommo :D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2007 16:51:06 GMT
I agree with you there Colemanator. There are very few people around the Oxford area who do not tap on after getting a winning score, but for the whole team to do this, in my opinion is a disgrace. What incentive do that team now have to carry on playing ? It is an arguement about incentive, though people clearly use it against the ones with the higher incentive (I don't understand why)! Incentive for a good player is to go out and score a high break, surely that cannot be frowned upon whoever your opponent is. Lets say the lower player got a 20K break out of nowhere, whould he tap up? Maybe, or not! Whould you then criticise him, like you would to the good player? It is a touchy subject as it affects me GREATLY in my league. It is a fine line between being a sport and a sore loser, though the sore losers will always be the ones heard! (mostly).
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Post by bigtj on Oct 12, 2007 17:47:57 GMT
To put this in perspective as a player who played for the Romans B, they have three players capable of going of with 10k, but are very defeatist when playing premier sides. This means that they are very often beaten before stepping to the table, surely players who have played for a number of years should be positive and set out toprove themselves...
I have in other threads put forward the case for not just thrashing lower division or new players, but with experienced teams who would have played in that league even before the new one league trial the n surely it is fair game.
The one thing I do not see or hear from the team in question is complaints about what happened to them so we must assume they take it as part of the game. As Nige says if they touched up and then went back on to purposely miss would be accussed of taking the piss.
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Post by FeedTheGoat on Oct 12, 2007 18:09:51 GMT
I can understand that the other team probably didn't enjoy the evening as much as they would have liked. You must remember that this will only happen to them once, maybe twice in the whole season because there isn't another full team in the league capable of running out every game.
With this in mind, you would expect a team of their experience to try their hardest to stay on the table - especially when they have all 5 breaks. But as Tony mentioned above, they almost seemed beaten before they started.
If we touch up, chances are we will get the break back soon after and continue playing anyway - as happened to Steve Mariner in the first game. He can't then just miss to let them have a go, it would become a pratice game!
We cannot be slated for playing the way we did - they are a 1st div team with all the breaks.
We would certainly not do this to a novice team.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2007 18:35:21 GMT
Maintaining a home table on which scores of 20k are obtainable - by whoever - is in itself surely a cause for celebration.
The rest of us can read about such exploits and dream about one special night when maybe everything will fall just right for us.
Congrats to Nigel on his 24k and to FeedTheGoat for his 22k in the last week. And what with Lloydy the week before, your team seem to be hitting tip-top form just at about the right time (and I say this with the 21st in mind. ;) )
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Post by NigelS on Oct 12, 2007 18:47:27 GMT
Further to what Feed the Goat says this will happen to teams very rarely, and also it is not as if we (my team) are scoring these scores every week.
The set of circumstances of the match gave us a chance of going for the record, Steve got back on after touching up and in the third game I was on after two shots and had the break back after two more shots making 25k a possibility, which moved our total score to 60k after three games. If the Romans B played only slightly better when they had the breaks the record team score would not have been on and they perhaps would have found us a little less ruthless. Indeed when we played my dads team in week 1 we never had a chance for the record as their opening breaks put it out of reach, and although they still lost 4-1, I would say we took it relatively easy on them.
As said in my opening paragraph we don't score these scores every week. Chances to set record scores come along once in a blue moon (the Stadium's record of 92k is equal to 18k+ a player so it is tough!), so when they do come up I defy anyone not to give it their best shot. We only get a maximum of 2 breaks (usually none) at home, and in cup games although we get equal breaks we are always on a neutral table, and although the Dyke was an exception you never really score as freely on an away top as you do on your own top.
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markb
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Post by markb on Oct 22, 2007 19:40:11 GMT
Why not go for the world record for 24 hours with 5 players i think the record is average of 20500 or thereabouts for 80 games
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Post by NigelS on Oct 22, 2007 19:46:08 GMT
Why not go for the world record for 24 hours with 5 players i think the record is average of 20500 or thereabouts for 80 games Been discussed before Mark and would love to have a crack at it. Believe some boys from Kent hold the record, although would need to look up the actual record as I think the post is lost from this board now. I may talk about this with the lads.
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markb
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Post by markb on Oct 22, 2007 20:07:13 GMT
Nigel if i remember the players were les green,kevin clark,mick lingham,curt driver and richard powell at the time they went for record i was playing in sussex.See you sunday.P.S ALL MEDWAY PLAYERS
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2007 20:46:40 GMT
24 hours ? Pussies !
In 1977, four of us (one of the other players being John Slee) did a 72-hour marathon at the Queens Head, Horsham - that's three days and nights without sleep and with just 5 minutes rest on each hour. We scored 1,500,000 and were almost dead on our feet after 2 days. It was fully authenticated with official scorers throughout, but the McWhirters reneged on the deal we had with them and we never got into the Guinness book as they had promised. Their excuse at the time was that "pegfall" (as they insultingly called it) wasn't a serious sport. >:(
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Post by hon Vice President on Oct 24, 2007 13:03:29 GMT
Just a couple of randoms:
Having a table set up so that the home players are able to belt 20k at will is not ideal - and may be viewed in the same way as a team favouring a slightly quirky top which brings standards down a tad - it's creating a "Homer" and I can't say I 'd go along with it. Level playing field throughout please.
Therefore, I'd rate someone from W Sussex or Smallhampton, say, who has a 20k County Assn shirt over someone from Hove - simply because, with or against the break; the surface will require some mental agility rather than a robotic 20 minute waltz. Or, to put it another way; watching Steve Marriner hit 10k+ on the Emsworth Railway table in the Watney Mann some years back, gave me far more pleasure as a spectator than watching a higher break by Mr M on his own table; the Railway top was, and is; challenging. Truly, the term "class will out" applied then. Reading a strange table takes skill. You'll forgive me if I understand why, therefore, some teams feel deflated simply at the prospect of playng the Stadium table! ::)
And Johny George - do players really just suddenly come up with a 20k break out of the blue? If they do and you know what they take in order to facilitate this; do let me have some - it's yet to happen to me, you see and I'd rather like to scare the sh1t out of one or two in my league! ;)
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Post by NigelS on Oct 24, 2007 13:43:42 GMT
I have got to take issue with certain points you make honchair. I can’t see how having a good home top is not ‘ideal’ . Your home top should be as good as you can possibly get it, it is the only way you will improve your overall game. I have seen teams have great home records on a quirky top but collapse away from home because they are not really building their confidence to be able to play better (and worse) tables and score the bigger scores.
Also there is no such thing as a top you can bang in 20k at will. If that was the case we would lose almost every game 5-0 as we usually give away all the breaks. 20k is a very difficult achievement of which only about 20 players have ever done in Sussex and a majority of them have only done it a handful of times. It is being made out we score 20k every week, if only that were the case, I think in 4 years at the Tap we have seen no more than ten 20 k breaks.
It doesn’t follow that a 20k player in West Sussex should be rated higher than one from Brighton or Worthing. Any 20k break has to be made on a good table, you won’t get them on bad ones no matter how good you are. And yes I appreciate a 10k break on a tough table, but just as much as a 20k break on a good one. The biggest test for players in being able to ‘read’ tables is when you go to open tournaments, where you have to play 6 or 7 different tables to stand a chance of winning. We have Brighton & Worthing players successful at these competitions but I haven’t seen much from West Sussex (except Alan Shaw)
One final point if teams are deflated by a visit to the Stadium (or the Tap), it goes back my original point of teams being defeated before a ball is struck in anger. You should look forward to playing on a good table, you will get most if not all of the breaks, but if you go to these place with the belief that you will get thrashed, then you will get thrashed.
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Post by bigtj on Oct 24, 2007 16:24:39 GMT
Have to agree with Nigel that in Brighton the Premier teams give away all five breaks and as a general rule their tables are a pleasure to play. As a first div player I go with a positive attuitude that I am going to win, but also know if I don` do enough on the break then it is likely that the Premier player will take my pants down and give me a good thrashing.
Do agree with Hon Chair it is a pleasure to watch breaks amassed on tricky tops, but would not really call 10k a sign of a tricky table. as one who has to work at my game I would rather play a consistent top that gives both players an even chance, nothing worse than a crap top where it is near on impossible to get the break back.
I do think that the class player will prevail even on the poorer tops as they will still read it better than a lesser player, but the lesser player will imrove significantly for playing a good home top, therefore giving confidence to break build away from home. In any game or sport surely we should strive to match the best and aim at our own goals for improvement even if you do not win your game. This would mean prehaps somebody who has only scored say 2k highest ever, then playing a good top aim for at least 3k even if loosing they could count this as apersonal triumph.
It took me a great number of years to score my first 10k and that only came because others that certainly better than me encouraged and coached me. I have participated from 1969 ( not always played) and still have only witnessed the preverbial handfull of 20ks.
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Post by FeedTheGoat on Oct 24, 2007 16:32:37 GMT
Bar billiards is meant to be played on a true and straight table! It has a slate bed - the reason that slate is used is because it is extremely flat!
I do not understand why many people feel that 'proper' bar billiards should be played on a difficult table?!
As for having a very good home top - it makes it much easier for the away teams to kick off with a decent score. Hence why teams with a very tricky home top have a very good home record. They suffer when they play away because of the point Nigel makes about not being able to improve.
I also feel that until you have had the pleasure of making a 20k break personally, you can't criticise others on the matter. It is a fantastic achievement that everyone should aim towards.
Chris
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 24, 2007 16:38:34 GMT
Bar billiards is meant to be played on a true and straight table! It has a slate bed - the reason that slate is used is because it is extremely flat! I do not understand why many people feel that 'proper' bar billiards should be played on a difficult table?! Well put Superman, that is exactly what i believe as well. :D and there are many difficult tables in my league, the best table here is not in the league ;)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 16:57:13 GMT
While I agree with the sentiment of making the home table as good as possible, I really do not feel that you should all be so dismissive of Honchair, as there are elements in his posting which I agree with too.
That's the trouble with this Forum sometimes, raw nerves are touched and people shot down in flames: Just because on balance you don't agree with Honchair, does not make him 100% wrong.
If approached for my views on the best two performances I have witnessed in the last 12 months, I'd say:
1. Glenn Chubb scoring 18k in the Brighton A v Redhill A Interleague match last season: He was playing with the match poised at 3-3 and was up against a former Jersey winner.
2. Lloydy's semi-final (2nd leg) against Leon Beer in the Bucks Open: Lloydy chased down a 17k deficit from the first leg and finished the winner with a thousand to spare.
In both these cases the performance was achieved under pressure, at great speed, and without being able to afford a mistake.
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 24, 2007 17:03:36 GMT
Tommo,
if a player has the capabilities and no nerves then a good player they will be. i will go out tonight on my own and more than likely get 'bored' at making a 10k break, cos there's no nerves and no pressure ::)
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Post by hon Vice President on Oct 24, 2007 18:13:26 GMT
While I have to overlook the ability of some of you to miss more points than are on the average hedgehog; let's get this straight. I maintain that the best players are those who can score heavily and consistently anywhere - not just on their home table; regardless of who goes first AND - we operate a similar system break-wise in W Sx thank you - you 'ain't unique in that respect. I guess what I was trying to say (based on experiences in and around Brighton) was that I don't rate a table set exclusively for the regular home players - and that includes slight uphill tilt with adaptations to ensure the balls return quickly so that rhythm can be established (hence the robotic reference). I've even been to pubs for inter-league games as a Div 2 player and been told that "this" table is for the first team - you don't use that one; yours is out the back - which should tell you something!
If a table is set-up with the home team in mind - perfect or not - it shows a bias and if we return to the original point here - have you considered that the reason some people do not enjoy or look forward to visiting some locations because they know damn well that their opponents are going to spend the evening trying to outscore each other - when the point of the evening is simply to win the match.
Consistency on tables throughout would be splendid; but it's Utopian. Even at competition events - one day or a weekend, tables change; speed fluctuates, cushions vary etc etc. Some are in lounge bars, some in games rooms; some in rooms used and heated just once a week - consistency is impossible.
Our league tables are not neglected; they are not left to fester in the hope that the visiting teams will not be able to score on them and there are good players in this league too Nigel; they simply do not (apart from Al, Dave H and one or two others) put themselves about chasing ranking points and trophies around the leagues. My point re watching a pressure game (as with Mr M) holds. Quite possibly the best match I have ever witnessed in terms of scoring was our IKO final several years back, three legs, one visit per player per leg, five breaks in excess of 17k. At the same time; watching a mate - Keith Turner - put in 5K on a neutral top in the final game of the team KO - needing to win the game and overturn a aggregate points deficit of more than 4k to win his team the trophy, took balls - in every sense and to me, his break tops a three-leg final with more than 75k scored, for technique and concentration.
I am not belittling the achievements of the top players in Sussex or elsewhere, but I can assure you that the best players in this particular league would; unless there was a genuine opportunity to secure the highest home or away break, play to win - not to humiliate. There's a difference.
OK? 8-)
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Post by FeedTheGoat on Oct 24, 2007 19:01:47 GMT
I was not trying to be dismissive of Honchair at all, and I absolutely agree that making an important break under pressure on a tricky top takes a lot of skill. But you will very often find that the players who make high breaks are the same players that are able to play tricky tables...i.e. Steve Mariner (huge number of 20k's), and hence why it is usually the same groups of players that do well at the Opens.
I agree with a lot of the points that have been made, but there is no need to refer to fabulous 20k breaks as a 'robotic 20 minute waltz'!
We also hardly ever play to 'outscore each other' in a league match - the opportunities are very rare.....and we most certainly do not go out to 'humiliate' our opponents!
I am quite open to hearing people's views, but please do not put these sort of remarks.
Why can't we celebrate something that happens relatively rarely in the game.
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Post by hon Vice President on Oct 24, 2007 22:51:16 GMT
It is celebrated; hence the recognition through the award of the polo shirt; the whole thread was started as a result of a total thrashing - therefore celebratory.
And if a personal opinion offends I apologise, but a break consisting of three different shots repeated ad infinitum is - regardless of the skill or concentration involved - NOT a spectator spectacle. It's a Catch 22 - how to encourage new players against maintaining a standard; demoralising to the person on the receiving end and God help the casual observer. To those at the top of the game it is, no doubt, a cause for celebration.
Just you carry on doing it - more power to yer elbow but you must forgive me for not wanting to share the experience at ever opportunity!
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