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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 0:06:09 GMT
Sorry to Keith for this however, at this time of writing I genuinely feel like giving the game up here in Cambridgeshire!
What has this game come to? Why have handicaps? Who is happy with playing Bar Billiards "straight" if that form of Bar Billiards still exists!?
I am merely having a discussion here not starting votes or anything. I shall give both sides of the story too!
Here in Cambridgeshire, there might be a proposal for a new handicap on players in Division 1. This handicap could mean that the Division 1 player has to tap up after 5K against a Division 2 player.
Now is this right to do?
My opinion - No, I come out for a night out, I want to play Bar Billiards to my full potential. With a possible rule which means I can't do that how will I for-fill my potential and enjoying the night out? I have my opinions and yes there are people with theres. I don't disrespect anybody unless they have done to me! I have been taught to play to my full potential, I also want to. The players who might of proposed this handicap are either jealous or want an easy win against a top player! If I was a Division 2 player (I once was) and I played a top player who stuffed me, I would not hold a grudge, I would not feel jealous, I will be the first to congratulate him on playing superbly! Why is it that some people don't? Am I asking this question because I am Ni-eve? No
There side of the story, They hate going out and sometimes getting stuffed against a tough opponent, they want the system to be "fair" and give them a chance. They come out wanting to get a victory (who doesn't) so why not play and practice so you can beat the top players? Handicap's are the only way of ONLY helping the Division's below the 1st! Is that a "fair" system?
I am trying my best to see both sides, however it really bothers me that people want to have an advantage before the slot is pulled!
This is my opinion now - why can't players win the old fashioned way? Go out and practice, get better, play better opponents and get tips on how to play. Yes there is a certain element of skill involved and natural ability can come in to it! However for the once a season top performance is too much from a player like me and many others, I say grow up!
This thread is a mere discussion on a possibility that will effect my decision of playing next season! It isn't aimed at anybody and I am not asking for a vote!
Your thoughts on the matter are welcome!
Johnny
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Post by Colemanator on Nov 21, 2006 8:22:25 GMT
We have the same here JG, it's cos you play with 1st and 2nd div sides , that reason is for not having enough teams. Our rule, i believe , is unwritten. It's not as you say, a handicap.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Nov 21, 2006 8:43:29 GMT
Ditto,
Without the other 90% of players to thrash, the top 10% will have no-one to play.
One of the reasons bar billiards is dying.
Sav.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 9:21:15 GMT
I have mixed feelings on this.
Ideally I would like life to be as uncomplicated as possible. When there are a lot of teams in a league, and you have the luxury of, say, 14 teams a division with as many as three division with promotions and relegations, everyone knows their level and there is no need whatsoever for handicaps.
When leagues shrink down, ways and means have to be found to maintain the number of games to be played: Rather than have to go round four times, say, in a group of six, some leagues elect to have a division within a division - possibly with bonus points for beating a Premier-rated team; or, handicaps are introduced so that all the Premier players forfeit the break.
Horses for courses.
Personally I would rather the normal league programme be played without restraints. And then in the close season the fun can begin and you can have all sorts of handicap competitions, just like we do in Redhill.
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Mark James
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Post by Mark James on Nov 21, 2006 10:19:43 GMT
I have a couple of questions to ask:
(1) Is this "handicap system" just a matter of league etiquette, or an actual rule?
(2) If the latter, what happens if a higher-ranked player does make a break of more than 5000, is it a foul?
(3) Does the same limit apply to the lower-ranked players, i.e. are they allowed to make breaks in excess of 5000?
The reason I used inverted commas above is that what's described isn't actually a handicap system in the strict sense of the term. A genuine handicap system would give one player a head start over the other, but the game would be played as normal thereafter.
To make the analogy with the most commonly handicapped sport, if I played Tiger Woods at golf, he would give me X number of shots handicap, and then we'd each play our normal game. (!)
However, the system being described in this thread would be the equivalent of me playing Tiger, and there being a rule in place that prohibits him from taking fewer than 4 shots on any hole.
I'm not suggesting, by the way, that golf-style handicaps are the solution to your league's problem. If the object is to prevent one player dominating table time, then that wouldn't make any difference. But what's described is more accurately a playing restriction rather than a handicap.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 10:26:45 GMT
Ditto, Without the other 90% of players to thrash, the top 10% will have no-one to play. One of the reasons bar billiards is dying. Sav. Well the average score for a Division 1 player here is 2970. I would hardly say they are going out and getting stuffed every week! The average Division 2 player is getting 1460 on average. However this does come down to opinions, as the answer to "Is it too drastic" is not set in stone unfortunatly! I think for the sake of 1500 it is a bit much to think about handicap! Also worked out that if you don't count the White Swan A in the averages it goes to 2490, Which is a mere 480 points difference!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 10:43:32 GMT
Just to add some input to Mark's and not attmpting to make a judgement either way:
In Mid Sussex our (separate) Charity League is a "true handicap" system as described by Mark, whereby players get a "start" based on their average from the previous year and it varies according to what table the match is to be played on.
In Redhill, there are numerous handicap events which take place in the close season. Some are based around a "score 3000 max and off" rule: In one event you're allowed to reach or surpass 3000, but then have to play one more legal non-scoring shot in order to hold the break. In another, you have to pull up short of the target, and if you don't you lose the lot and have to wear a donkey's hat until someone else does similar and takes it off you !
None of this detracts from the "normal" league, where everyone tries to beat the crap out of everyone else without handicaps.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 10:53:32 GMT
Well Mark, I believe it may be proposed at the AGM.
Well I beleive a handicap is giving the opponent the upper hand before we play!
If the White Swan got relegated and this "maybe" rule was in place would you want to tap up against Phil with 5K?
There are players capable of getting 5k in the 2nd Division too!
I hope it isn't a rule however by the sound of it, it could be close!
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 11:26:20 GMT
What you are describing is not really a handicap, just a scoring cap. I actually think it is a good idea and a much better way of dealing with split leagues then handicaps. People go out to play Bar Billiards, if you go out and keep losing without having a chance, people give up-simple. If you have a handicap, like the Wallingford Summer League (not knocking it), if you have to give away 8k, if you have the break, then you will need to score about 14k to make the game safe, this in turn will give the "lesser" player no time at all on the table. The way Johnny is saying is that you come off after a 5k break. This will then give the "lesser" player a chance on the table and a chance to win. As long as this rule is for ALL players, no matter what division they play, i think it will work. We have a split league in the Eynsham league with 5 teams in each league, but playing everyone. There are no handicaps, but most of the top players will tap-up a lot earlier if they are playing a newcomer to the game.
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CraigC
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Post by CraigC on Nov 21, 2006 11:46:04 GMT
It depends on the standard of the division two player. If they are unlikely to catch that back, it is only courtesy to tap up. Otherwise, as has already been mentioned, why should they bother to turn up to be thrashed. Not much of a game with no one on the other side of the scorecard.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 11:53:17 GMT
Who is getting thrashed here?
The averages prove that the Division 1 players are not even making 5K on average apart from the White Swan and a few others elsewhere!
Is this "limitation" more aimed at the White Swan or the 1st Division?
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CraigC
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Post by CraigC on Nov 21, 2006 12:13:54 GMT
I take it this is a Winter League proposal, rather than Summer League, and int the main competition I guess you would want to see as open play as possible. But playing a system with Div1 & Div2 playing against each other may bring about some necessary restrictions. Some people play the game simply for a good evening out and a knockabout, these are the bread and butter, grassroots (if I can think of more cliches, I'll add them later with an edit), and are essential to the game as a whole. Pubs are far happier to host a table with plenty of money going behind the bar.
Can understand your frustration at not being able to play your game, and it does seem it should be more down to judgement, as you know how good your opponent is, and when and where to tap up. Best thing, get to the AGM (assuming it is open), make your point of view known, and propose to keep it unwritten, perhaps with a trial year. If it can be seen then that top players are showing courtesy to the lesser players, while maintaining a competitive level against the better players, no rule will need to be introduced.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 12:32:39 GMT
Some people play the game simply for a good evening out and a knockabout, these are the bread and butter, grassroots (if I can think of more cliches, I'll add them later with an edit), and are essential to the game as a whole. Pubs are far happier to host a table with plenty of money going behind the bar. If these people are going out for a night out then why are these people putting in proposes for limitations? Has anybody ever heard of practice? I haven't heard it mentioned! I didn't moan and attempt to get limitations so I could be better at Bar Billiards. I work bloody hard, every week without fail I practice and even after a league game. It hurts me that I am not grass roots to the game, because I will be the last person to leave under "no limitations" in Bar Billiards! Division 2 players have been around longer then I have, so they are not newcomers, however you do get the odd 1 or 2! Can't people see that it isn't the competitiveness thats killing the game it's the non-competitiveness that want handicaps (which makes no sense because they obviously want to win then)! I will play until I have done it all, that day may never come! If you don't care and go out for a night out and play Bar Billiards then why would that person ask for limits on Division 1 players! It is pure 100% Jealousy, I will not apoligise for this statement as deep down it is true! I know people have different views and different mind sets, if I was a Division 2 player I wouldn't think of putting limits on the Division 1 players otherwise how would you learn anything if they have to tap up all the time (In Cambridge it is rare for a player to get over 5K on average). If you are one of the people who want to have some game time and genuinely don't care about winning, then fair enough I can see this proposal would then mean something. However I bet there are more people out there who prefer to play to win then don't!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 12:52:11 GMT
Stop holding back, Johnny. Why don't you say what you really mean ? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 12:54:34 GMT
I just want to make a point Tommo, I am not trying to dish it out however some things need to be said!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 13:38:52 GMT
Well, you sound as if you're alright for this season.
And if you want to prevent a change for next, make sure you go along to your AGM with a few mates, all have your say about it from the floor, and if commonsense prevails you should win the day.
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 14:01:58 GMT
I know people have different views and different mind sets, if I was a Division 2 player I wouldn't think of putting limits on the Division 1 players otherwise how would you learn anything if they have to tap up all the time (In Cambridge it is rare for a player to get over 5K on average). If you are one of the people who want to have some game time and genuinely don't care about winning, then fair enough I can see this proposal would then mean something. However I bet there are more people out there who prefer to play to win then don't! If you turn up to play a game and your opponent runs the table out and you haven't had a shot, how have you learnt anything ? you haven't had a go at the table. You can watch people and read books or whatever, but the only way to get better is to play. If people rarely get over 5k, then what are you getting upset about anyway ?
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Post by CraigC on Nov 21, 2006 14:19:46 GMT
Sorry Johnny, think you may have misunderstood some of the points I was making. The game should be played competitively, I certainly play to win (although I have been put to shame, as I only practice on match nights ;)) - continue to play to the level you want or aspire to, and continue enjoying your game. But also, have respect those that perhaps don't have the same ability but still want to enjoy their game.
As mentioned earlier, get along to the AGM and ensure common sense prevails, as for the main competition it really should be down to your own judgement and not rules that dictate when to come off the table.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 14:35:41 GMT
Yes, can't help thinking that the vehicle you should really be using for such a discussion should be your own Cambridgeshire website.
Here, we can't really help you much as all our own Leagues have their own separate foibles and preferences for the way things are run.
We would not seek to influence the way the Cambridge league is run, therefore we can't build up much passion about a situation which you obviously have very strong feelings about.
So maybe you should take it to your own Forum for a 'heated debate'.
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Mark James
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Post by Mark James on Nov 21, 2006 14:48:05 GMT
To make a league of mixed abilities really competitive, how about a rule forbidding premier division players from scoring a break of under 5000? :)
Any scoring visit of less than 5k would be disregarded or, if playing against a novice, added to the opponent's score instead. ;)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 15:19:00 GMT
A bit of inverted thinking, there. Quite mischievous, as imagine the tension as the player passed 4500 on the break. Would the 'lesser' player then be tempted to try to put the premier player off ? :o
I think it would have the adverse effect, drive the good players on to be even better, and to grind their weaker opponents even further into the ground. >:(
Talking of inverted thinking, I have always been against home players being able to practice on the table just prior to the match. It is in my humble view contrary to etiquette. How about if Away players were entitled to a 20 minute practice instead ? ;D
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Post by NigelS on Nov 21, 2006 15:22:30 GMT
Personally speaking I would not play in a league that limited me to scoring over a 5k break or 10k break.
Also I find it puzzling when people think that if someone is forced to touch up on a certain score this gives the lesser opponent still a chance of 'winning'. Is there really a satisfaction to be gained in winning a game where your opponent has been restricted, what comes next, the better players have to play with one hand behind their back.
I am all for encouraging new players, in Brighton we are lucky enough to have lower divisions so new players do not have to meet top players before they have to. If in Cambridge, 2nd division teams play 1st division how about letting all 2nd division players have the break. It would not only give all 2nd division players a chance but also probably make the matches more competitive .
The score limitations for a league will discourage the established players from playing and make that league weaker in the long run. It is also no help to those players who want to go on and play in opens where breaks of 5k won't get you very far.
We in Brighton do have handicap system for the summer league, which works quite well, and for that league score limitations may work as the whole idea of the summer league is to give every team, regardless of strength, an equal chance of winning. However, the winter league should not be like that, the whole idea is to find the best team in Brighton, if we put score limitations on certain players I feel it would turn it into a bit of a farce.
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 15:22:41 GMT
Talking of inverted thinking, I have always been against home players being able to practice on the table just prior to the match. It is in my humble view contrary to etiquette. How about if Away players were entitled to a 20 minute practice instead ? ;D Good idea, maybe just if Div2 players are playing against Div1 players ? Plus get all the breaks ?
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Post by petem on Nov 21, 2006 16:06:54 GMT
A question This may have been covered before,so excuse me if it has In the Worthing league our captains nominate the games except in cup matches,which are played as drawn How do the other leagues sort out the playing order? When I played 25 years ago it was played as drawn but the better players still managed to come out on top of the averages although our games were much tighter Played as drawn will always throw up the unexpected I know this is not strictly a Handicap theory but in a way it is making the games fairer
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 16:08:46 GMT
Redhill works in exactly the same way as Nigel has described, apart from that in the main competition the leagues are kept separate. And I think that if ever they were to be combined (if the league shrank) it is extremely likely that the premier teams would concede the break to the 'lower' teams, whether home or away. That makes perfect sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 16:14:14 GMT
A question This may have been covered before,so excuse me if it has In the Worthing league our captains nominate the games except in cup matches,which are played as drawn How do the other leagues sort out the playing order? When I played 25 years ago it was played as drawn but the better players still managed to come out on top of the averages although our games were much tighter Played as drawn will always throw up the unexpected I know this is not strictly a Handicap theory but in a way it is making the games fairer I don't think it's fair either, Pete. Letting the captain decide who plays who, when and if they have the break or not makes a mockery of the season's averages. I hated it when it was introduced for Inter-League and wouldn't play for a good many years afterwards. We tried to get it changed back at the Sussex AGM, but lost on a split vote and Chairperson's casting vote.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 16:22:53 GMT
Yes, can't help thinking that the vehicle you should really be using for such a discussion should be your own Cambridgeshire website. Well I would if people used it, however having a discussion between 3 people isn't enough.
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Post by milhouse on Nov 21, 2006 16:47:53 GMT
A question This may have been covered before,so excuse me if it has In the Worthing league our captains nominate the games except in cup matches,which are played as drawn How do the other leagues sort out the playing order? When I played 25 years ago it was played as drawn but the better players still managed to come out on top of the averages although our games were much tighter Played as drawn will always throw up the unexpected I know this is not strictly a Handicap theory but in a way it is making the games fairer In Oxford (shire) all the leagues have registration cards and it is luck of the draw if you get the break and who you play. Home players break 1&4, away players 2,3&5. I don't think i would play in a team if the captain chose where people play and if they had the break etc. I think that is a bad way of playing this game.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 17:45:24 GMT
Well it does go against the grain, Mark. I can recall a case of a player who used to use a Crawley pub every night of the week and knew the table like the back of his hand. He was picked for interleague and only played home games (his captain giving him the break each time) as he disliked travelling away. Seeing him at the top of the list with a 10k average rankled a bit, as he had been protected from having to play anyone any good who, with the benefit of the break, might have been able to give him a good hiding. In other words, his performance was artificial.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 17:50:42 GMT
Well I would if people used it, however having a discussion between 3 people isn't enough. Ah, as K.T.Tunstall would say, "Suddenly I See."That's a great shame. But for those of us on this Forum, all we can really do is kick the subject of Handicaps around without reaching a decision as regards your League, as quite frankly it's not our business.
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