A question of etiquette...

milko said:

I also disagree with tommo's comment, quote, (There's no rule to stop it, but I've always thought it bad etiquette for the home side to be practising the break, one-up and split shamelessly as the away team walk in - as happens quite often with certain teams (not mine !) at Interleague).
If home teams want to do this that's up to them, this will surely help the away team, as they will be able to see how the table plays.

Not wishing to let this one (discussed today on the Mid Sussex board) go, I want to open it up for General Discussion.

Generally speaking, Keith, the home players practicing just before the match are not trying to unravel some deep secret about their table which might suddenly hand the key of how to play it to the opposition: They are simply warming up/ getting the cue arm going/ finding the pace of the table/ gaining the confidence needed. There is just no substitute for first hand experience. At your level maybe - but not for us mere humans. ;)

What do darts players do before a match ? They throw practice darts to get in the groove. Same with snooker, in between rounds, they keep 'warmed up' by using the practice tables.

All I am saying is that if home players are allowed to do this, then the opposition should be allowed to warm up with a few shots also.

This was the other point :

bigtj said:

As for Sussex inter league I am sure Tommo there is a rule that states home team to only practice table to 7.15pm and as most away teams are not on the premises by that time it would only affect a handful of people. Surely it is benificial for the away team to get a preview of the top and not any real extra benefit to the home team.

If this is the case, TJ, then I'm sure that this rule has been violated once last season, and once this season, both times on the coast (different teams).
But then I wouldn't go running for the rulebook to blow the whistle..........too much of a gentleman. ;)

[davejones]

Tommo
The rules are in place for the away captain to ascertain how level of the table. Rule is as follows:

"The visiting Captain may satisfy him/herself on the level of the table and to facilitate this, the balls are to be made available in the tray upon request in order that he/she may make trial shots to the top of the table. However he/she may not use side cushions, strike another ball or attempt the break shot."

The rule that a lot of teams ignore is:

"After each match, both team captains will be responsible for sending the result to the Inter-League Secretary, within 48 hours of the match being played."

First one is an excellent failsafe to guard against 'bent' tables, Dave. It's very rarely invoked, though, as all the Interleague tables I've played on in my two years back into the fray have been really good quality. (In the Mid Sussex league for ordinary league matches I always offer the facility to the away captain and was in fact taken up on the offer last night).

Regarding second point, I'm not the captain but do the honours at the captain's request: I ensure that a)you get an email with the scores a.s.a.p., b) I post a writeup on here and c) I also post the cards off afterwards. Belt and two sets of braces, if you like. Hope others are as diligent.

[davejones]

Sadly some are not as dilligent as you are Tommo

[Sparky]

Interestingly I too thought that a home team player, in Home & Away Interleague, could practice up until 7.30pm (bigtj may well be right at 7.15pm), which always seemed odd as play should start at 7.30pm anyway, but I cannot find it in the current SCBBA rules, so does anyone know if it did exist and when was it removed from the rules?

Furthermore the full rule from the SCBBA website regarding notification of results is:-

RULES FOR INTER-LEAGUE COMPETITIONS

"MAIN" COMPETITION - HOME & AWAY BASIS

3. After each match, both team captains will be responsible for sending the result to the Inter-League Secretary, within 48 hours of the match being played.

In addition, the Home Team Captain will, within 24 hours of the match being played, telephone the result to the Inter-League Secretary.

Failure to meet both of the requirements of this Rule will result in the deduction of ONE POINT from the offending Team's points total.
(end)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

now I know we don't generally enforce the rule that strictly but it could help to make people more aware of it :o

Obviously not enforced. Else most of the teams (mine included) would have lost 1pt per match for the lack of the phone call.

Dave made it plain on this forum a while back that he is quite happy so long as he receives (within the 48 hours) an eMail providing the scores.

Some Secretaries don't like late night calls just as they're about to go to bed - I know I wouldn't, and in his position I wouldn't be insisting on a telephoned result either and would rather see the scores down there in black and white in front of me on an eMail.

sparky said:

Interestingly I too thought that a home team player, in Home & Away Interleague, could practice up until 7.30pm (bigtj may well be right at 7.15pm), which always seemed odd as play should start at 7.30pm anyway, but I cannot find it in the current SCBBA rules, so does anyone know if it did exist and when was it removed from the rules?

You're right to ask the question, and I would imagine that the rule was officially discarded at an AGM - probably prior to 2000.

I do recollect the Rule being there, though, and its purpose - which was to give a half-hour's grace. In those days matches started at 7.45 rather than the 7.30 which is now prevalent - due to Interleague encompassing teams from further afield.

If the rule were ever re-introduced, it would need to say 7.00 to have any sort of relevance.

[Ros]

I thought there was a Sussex rule too, and also recall some anomaly with the time, such that the match would have started anyway before the time was up. I can't find anything in my 2003 version of Sussex rules, but tommo might be right that it existed in earlier years.

I don't see there is a problem with the home team practising, although it's probably not wise to carry on with the break after the away team arrive.

I have been tempted to do this at interleague myself, as the home interleague table has never been a home league table for me. Two things that have stopped me is not knowing the opposing teams well enough to recognise all the players (therefore risking giving something away) and not being a member of the club venue.

[davejones]

charlady said:

I don't see there is a problem with the home team practising, although it's probably not wise to carry on with the break after the away team arrive.

This is not a major issue as the home team has the break in the first game, so giving their opponents a look at the table!

[Chris_Sav]

I have moved this back to the Mid Sussex board as this is being discussed specifically as a Sussex rules problem and not general comments on the etiquette of practicing on away tables.

Sav.

[Ros]

Umm, I agree this isn't general, but it is about Sussex interleague and Sussex rules (past or present) so couldn't it be on the Sussex board?

[Chris_Sav]

charlady said:

Umm, I agree this isn't general, but it is about Sussex interleague and Sussex rules (past or present) so couldn't it be on the Sussex board?

Was just thinking that myself!!

Sav

Well I did really open it up for general discussion as I wanted to be a bit provocative and invite some comment back from Sheardo, who made the point that a home player warming up would reveal a hidden secret about a table to the opposition.

I fail to see how watching someone like Nigel doing his warmup routine (sorry if this sounds as if Nigel does it before a match, as far as I know he doesn't, I'm just using him as an example) would tell me everything I needed to know about the Tap table.
Nigel would be fine-tuning his supreme skills, judging the pace against what he would expect to be normal, and adjusting the thickness or thin-ness for the split shot - for which he would have the measure but I would have nothing to measure it against.

The only time it might be beneficial to the opposition would be if it was a ropy table with a vicious roll or some dodgy cushions, and I cannot think of one currently in use for Sussex Interleague at present.

[Alan Messer]

Have just checked all my copies of SCBBA rules going back to 1997 season. No mention is recorded in the rules of a time at which the home team should or should not stop practising. My guess is that it may have been brought up at an AGM without a rule ever being passed or added to the rule book. There are lots of things which people have thought are rules over the years.

It would be interesting to hear examples from people of these 'hearsay rules' which have got into the folklore of bar billiards.

Oh dear, have just had to spend an hour neglecting the quiz scoring to rummage through the Archives in my back bedroom (folder marked "SCBBA").

I have turned up the agenda for the 1999 AGM which was held at the Cherry Tree, Faygate on Mon 5th July 1999 and under Item 10 Rules and Amendments (amongst quite a few other things) the following proposals had been put forward specifically relating to Interleague:

One Day Interleague - rule 1 (Registration). "In this competition a player can only represent the same league as he or she played for in the main competition" CHANGE TO " A player may play for another league than the one represented in the main competition, if the original league does not make any formal objection. Disputes to be resolved by SCBBA committee". (Proposed by Alan Messer, Seconded by Mark James)

Main Competition Home and Away Basis
Rule 5. Teams failing to fulfil an interleague fixture, other than owing to extreme circumstances......shall have the match awarded against them 4 games to nil and 1 point deducted CHANGE TO ".........7 games to nil" (proposed by Eddy Griffin, seconded by Mark James)
Rule 2. ".........Practice at the table or 'warming up' by the home side after 19.30 is expressly forbidden........" CHANGE TO "......Practice by the home team may continue at the discretion of the visiting captain after 19.30" (proposed by Jim Millward, seconded by Eddy Griffin)

So that's the mystery solved as far as I'm concerned. Although I don't recall the outcome of the discussions at that AGM (my sheet is not marked up and I may not even have been in attendance - I may have been on holiday) I have hard copy evidence that a rule covering warming up existed at least up to 5th July 1999. It may be that an amendment to the proposal wording was voted through - or that the whole lot was deleted - but you should be able to trace what happened from there.

Just a small point I'd like to make.

I don't see a problem with home teams playing or practicing on tables. I have, in the past, as Captain offered a visiting team chance to put a pound in the slot and have go on the table before the match. This was because our table (the Wellie) was a bit wobbly (like most of my team) and rolled around a bit (again like most of my team). The Romans team did not take up the offer if I remember correctly.

As for the visiting team getting used to the table, they can come in the night before and practice all they want. I don't think many teams change thier tables just in case the opposition had "come in yesterday."

[Alan Messer]

Hi Tommo

Oh dear!! I really should have researched more fully. The following is an extract from

MINUTES Of SCBBA ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING
Meeting held at the HURST CLUB
08th July 2002

Rule Changes and amendments

Proposed by Worthing A team as it was felt that the rule served no significant purpose and that games started and finished on time without the need for a ‘rule’. It was also noted that seeing the home team warm up revealed more about the table than rolling up

Interleague rule 2.

The visiting Captain may satisfy him/herself on the level of the table and to facilitate this, the balls are to be made available in the tray upon request in order that he/she may make trial shots to the top of the table. However he/she may not use side cushions, strike another ball or attempt the break shot, Practise at the table or “warning-up” by the Home Team after 19:30 hours on the day of the match is expressly forbidden and will result in forfeiture of the match

Be changed to

The visiting Captain may satisfy him/herself on the level of the table and to facilitate this, the balls are to be made available in the tray upon request in order that he/she may make trial shots to the top of the table. However he/she may not use side cushions, strike another ball or attempt the break shot.

Rule change adopted unopposed

I hope this unravels any confusions and glad to have been of service.

Thanks Alan,
You have certainly buttoned it down for all of us.
Big TJ was the one who first recalled on here that there was a wording to cover it once, I thought so too and maybe we are not going mad after all. :-/
I only keep stuff out of force of habit really, from when I was the Horsham Secretary and jolly well made sure I was clued up on everything.

Regg3y - I don't think warming up prior to a match is that heinous a crime either, I just think that it is not very gentlemanly to continue with it once the opponents have walked in, as it sends out the wrong message.

Finally, I'm pleased with my own research last night, as I also stumbled upon some more Sussex Finals Night programmes from way back, which may be of further use to Nigel in plugging gaps in the records. Also full transcripts of the first few Sussex Opens and the last two Northants Opens, and even the full line up of the last SCBBA Champion-of-champions competition ever held, when Nigel lost to Sleezy in the Final ! ;D