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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 21, 2012 20:29:17 GMT
Congratulations to Caversham Club (Berkshire) on their victory at the Post Office Club today, beating the Laughing Fish (Sussex) 3-1 in the Final with wins for Paul Sainsbury (13,960) and Phil Hawkins (8,660) against the break and Keith Lewendon (8,740) sealing the victory with Dave Ingram (9,370) also winning against the break for the Fish.
Both Groups had proved very competitive with Cavendish winning all three of their games 3-2 in Group 2 against The Fox (Northants), The Beach Tree (Bucks) and South Park Con Club (Surrey) to finish on 9 points. The Fox beat South Park 3-2 and The Beach Tree 4-1 to finish level on 9 points and South Park beat the Beach Tree 5-0 in the first game to also end on 9 points meaning the Cavendish Club qualified by virtue of winning all 3 of their games. Andy Finn and Vernon Sparkes (both South Park) and Colin Martin (The Fox) won all 3 of their group games.
In Group 1, Kennington Social Club (Oxon) beat the Laughing Fish 3-2 in the first match while Rochester Social Club (Kent) beat Langstone Harbour (Hants) 4-1, Kennington then beat Langstone Harbour 4-1 and the Laughing Fish beat Rochester 4-1. The final series was all very close but the Laughing Fish beat Langstone Harbour 4-1 to finish on 10 points and Rochester beat Kennington 3-2 leaving Kennington on 9 points and Rocherster on 8 points. Jim Millward (Laughing Fish) was the only player in this Group to win all of his games.
Many thanks to Dave Alder for running another very enjoyable and successful tournament, everybody that helped to set up the tables (that all played very well) and the Post Office Club for their hospitality. 8-)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 21:29:48 GMT
Sounds like it was a good day of competitive bar billiards.
Congrats to the Caversham WMC and well done also to the Laughing Fish - runners-up not bad for a first attempt ! ;D
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Post by barbelman on Oct 22, 2012 9:53:54 GMT
Well at least the only 'legal' team won it!! ;D ;D
Very well done to Caversham WMC and bad luck to the runners-up from Sussex and to the Oxfordshire representatives Kennington SSC....
Tony
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Post by H on Oct 22, 2012 10:30:32 GMT
Well done Caversham - a convincing win with all three of their victories in the final, from what I could tell, being won in a single break (mine certainly was :().
Great day, well run by Dave (thankyou), and the tables by and large playing very well, Sav's handiwork was definitely noticeable!
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Post by milko on Oct 22, 2012 11:52:34 GMT
I must apologize to Dave Alder I knew about the rule on registration but only told him at the county championships. With regard to notifying Dave Alder by the end of August I think a lot of people have not fully understood. All entrants in the competition should be notified to the AEBBA secretary not just the county winners so that eligibility can be confirmed. Quite right Pete and if I may say it would have been totally wrong to have disqualified all those area winners when it is the responsibility of all the "County Secretaries" to put ALL the entered teams in by that date. |
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colinm
Full Forum Member
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Post by colinm on Oct 22, 2012 12:12:12 GMT
Well done Dave another very well run day and the tables all played very well (the 3 I played did anyway).
Congratulations to CWMC on their victory yesterday and to all of my team mates at The Fox Inn, Thrapston, we had a great day and it was really nice to be asked to play, I felt very welcome and honoured to have been asked to play with a great bunch of guys!
We nearly surprised the other teams to ;)
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Post by milko on Oct 22, 2012 12:52:28 GMT
Well done Dave another very well run day and the tables all played very well (the 3 I played did anyway). Congratulations to CWMC on their victory yesterday and to all of my team mates at The Fox Inn, Thrapston, we had a great day and it was really nice to be asked to play, I felt very welcome and honoured to have been asked to play with a great bunch of guys! We nearly surprised the other teams to ;) Glad you had a great day Colin but if you'd told me last time we met that you would be playing for another Counties team in this event my answer would have been "Not a chance in hell" so it just goes to show anything can happen!! ??? I wonder who the three disappointed "legal" players were that you beat, I know one thing if it had been me it would have left a very bad taste in my mouth! Just my opinion. Keith :( |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 22, 2012 13:22:59 GMT
I wonder who the three disappointed "legal" players were that you beat, I know one thing if it had been me it would have left a very bad taste in my mouth! To answer your question Keith.... John Kitson (Beach Tree, Bucks), Dave Constable (South Park Con Club, Surrey) and Paul Sainsbury (Caversham WMC, Berks) :o were the players that Colin beat. I think that common sense prevailed with the decision to allow Colin to represent the Fox on this occasion, surely better that than to disqualify all of the other teams on a "Technicality" and lose the competition completely for this season....? ::) Having said that, I do think that the Rules for this competition do need to be looked at and updated at the AEBBA AGM this year to ensure that everybody understands them in the future and that all teams can then abide by them. 8-) |
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Post by milhouse on Oct 22, 2012 15:05:08 GMT
IMHO i would vote no to having guest players full stop. The competition is to find the best pub/league team in teh country, not the best team + a ringer! Would solve a lot of arguments aswell ;)
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Post by bigjimsilverfox on Oct 22, 2012 15:33:29 GMT
IMHO i would vote no to having guest players full stop. The competition is to find the best pub/league team in teh country, not the best team + a ringer! Would solve a lot of arguments aswell ;) I have to agree with Mark! Not often that happens ;D |
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Post by triplex on Oct 22, 2012 18:38:04 GMT
Well done Dave another very well run day and the tables all played very well (the 3 I played did anyway). Congratulations to CWMC on their victory yesterday and to all of my team mates at The Fox Inn, Thrapston, we had a great day and it was really nice to be asked to play, I felt very welcome and honoured to have been asked to play with a great bunch of guys! We nearly surprised the other teams to ;) Glad you had a great day Colin but if you'd told me last time we met that you would be playing for another Counties team in this event my answer would have been "Not a chance in hell" so it just goes to show anything can happen!! ??? I wonder who the three disappointed "legal" players were that you beat, I know one thing if it had been me it would have left a very bad taste in my mouth! Just my opinion. Keith :( Technically speaking 2 of the 3 players who Colin beat were also illegal players as you put it. Any way well played Colin it was a pleasure to welcome you to the Fox and we look forward to next year!!!!! Well done also Dave for again a well run day. |
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Post by Chris on Oct 22, 2012 20:07:43 GMT
Colin Martin did Northants proud. Well done Colin !!!
Had I not played elsewhere I would have signed on their league travelled up and played a game in their league once just to fulfill a rule and role and played for them. You are safe guys I know Colin is the best player !! It is though a principle for me when a team tries their best and only has 4 in their team.
I look at players like Dennis Claydon, Alan Chaloner, Paul Sainsury, Geoff Jukes, Geoff Pitt, Dave Murrel who travel miles to support leagues and teams. I know there are many more. They do it because they enjoy the game and totally support all players, as well as their own league.
We all moan about those counties that don't get involved and when they truly, truly try their hardest we knock them for how they did it?? Which way do you want it? More teams and growth or the 'Out Of Date rules'and total rules applied?? I am totally surprised by a couple of comments especially when making light of guessing the player?
The rules do need to be reviewed at the AGM. Why should not a player guest for another team in another County if they have not played in the Competition in any previous rounds?
We have had late players allowed to play this year and the next round on that table pl ayed before ( I totally agree they should if appropriate re traffic and so on be allowed to play) I leave an hour earlier than I need to because of this rule!! as I hate to let the players down that I bring. If you enforce a rule and kick them out due to late arrival then be consistent, if that happened to me I would not come again. I know of one player that had that enforced on them through no fault of their own, just because of a traffic hold up due to an accident.
I believe that Dave Alder made an excellent judgment as he said 'all should have been eliminated except Berks for not registering players' therefore I believe all players this time, do not in any way, have the right to complain except Berks, ( just they won and well done)
I did though take on TJ's comments because of how they run their eliminator for this Competition and maybe the cut off date for registering players needs to change or the names of possible players are sent.
I don't think many of us read the rules when entering, unless they are sent out with the interest of entering form so maybe they should be annually.
One last point re teams should not be allowed guest players:
What if the league you play in only requires 4 players? e.g. Littlehampton. How do you enter except with a guest player? Or are you eliminated from the start?
Chris
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Post by Hon Vice President (R.I.P.) on Oct 22, 2012 21:33:51 GMT
A splendidly reasoned contribution Chris. Hopefully the outcome will be one which promotes inclusion rather than what seems to be the petulant stamping of feet over a rule which whips the original Catch 22 into a 200 hole! This is a minority sport and is destined to stay that way... Maybe we could start with determining whether the is a team or representative event? If not, then standardise the parameters and make these clear for all leagues. Consistency need not be avoided. Seems a lot of ball ache just because I had to be somewhere else on one given Sunday in October... ;-)
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 22, 2012 22:42:58 GMT
Technically speaking 2 of the 3 players who Colin beat were also illegal players as you put it. Any way well played Colin it was a pleasure to welcome you to the Fox and we look forward to next year!!!!! Well done also Dave for again a well run day. I don't know what to say really, it was a pleasure to have Colin with the Fox Inn. I didn't think that we broke any rules, as he had not played in the competition up to that point. A lot has already been said so I won't drag over old ground. The Caversham club had a guest player from their own league, i was told. ( pardon me if that's not true) so we really could've brought a player from our league from another team, if that was the case? In an ideal world a winter league team should be the representative from the county that they play in, or have league team winners from each league, which would make a lot of teams on the day. |
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Post by H on Oct 22, 2012 22:45:10 GMT
My twopence worth as a player who both legally qualified and took part in the competition, up until this forum debate, and was not aware of any of the rules that have been brought up. As far as your average league player is concerned (in Sussex anyway), you win the Watney Mann (our qualifier) and you play in the national team champs. It would seem from my perspective that the rules are not made apparent enough to all the relevant bodies - The SCBBA have been, from what I have seen in the 11 years playing bar billiards, a very organised body, and yet weren't aware of this ruling. Why is this the case?
Not looking for controversy, just wondering.
All comments aside I still support the fact we had a great day and commend Dave Alder for running it so well!
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 22, 2012 23:08:39 GMT
The rules have been on the AEBBA website for very many years and the entire rule book publically debated when they were brought up to date between three and four years ago.
There was and is two complete forum sections on the rules with almost 500 posts. Can everybody, especially County Secretaries, really plead lack of knowledge of the new rule book that is there for all to see?
Personally I have never agreed with the same league restriction on guests as it prevented me from having a game, when keen enough, as my own team have no wish to enter.
Sav
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Post by H on Oct 22, 2012 23:20:15 GMT
A fair comments Sav. I will confess to having never trawled through the rules myself.
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Post by Coleman Jnr on Oct 23, 2012 6:06:40 GMT
All in all, we never as a team/county, tried to open up a debate that seems to have got way out of proportion. At the en of the day, all we tried to do was was find a 5th player that was eligible to come along, so we could attend and enjoy our day playing some Billiards. We are sorry if we have offended people by breaking of the rules, and by he sounds of it, any creases in the rules, are to be ironed out at the next AGM, so it will be interesting to see if people who are so strongly for/against this weekend attend? I certainly shall try to!
Not taking anything away from Berks, so a congrats to them, and considering they were the ONLY legal team there, some great performances gave them the win.
In my honest opinion I think we should now draw a line under it all, and move forward, The Fox/Northants does not want all this controversy we just wanted to represent a county who's game is in decline!
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PaulS
Full Forum Member
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Post by PaulS on Oct 23, 2012 10:51:45 GMT
"The Caversham club had a guest player from their own league, i was told."
You are quite correct Ian although Phil's team did not enter the competition so he was able to guest for us. I believe your problem was that all the Northants players had already played in the comp.
Clearly this rule needs modifying for the current climate if we want to keep the competition going. If it gets really picky there is a previous winner who technically played in the competition twice in that year. One of the leagues he plays in sends the league champions as county representatives so he has surely played in the competition in that county. He then entered the knockout competition in another county for a team he also plays league for, won that and then won the finals. I won't name the player or the leagues involved as I firmly believe we should be promoting playing not restricting it but I am sure a lot of people on here would find it very ironic!!!
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Post by barbelman on Oct 23, 2012 14:39:29 GMT
This competition was originally conceived as a tournament for finding the best club/pub team in the country and for various reasons, including multi-league and even county representation, seems to have denigrated into almost a normal County playoff.... ;)
We need to go back to first principles where any normally registered team can enter their respective county's team KO (whatever form that takes) and the winner of that goes through to the team finals as it is supposed to be now but with no guests, no nomination and no stroke pulling (not that there is much these days but there has been in the past as we are all aware).
A signed (by County Secretary) entry form could then be sent to Dave each autumn affirming that the team is a bona-fide pub or club side and the LEAGUE within the county confirmed for multi league counties. Once you have played for a team in any type of playoff you can't play for anyone else and it is up to County Secretaries to keep track of this via the normal registration process...
It's a unique competition that enables any team however capable to enter at the county level and it would be a shame if it just disappears into oblivion as "just another" County team competition.
Tony
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Post by barbelman on Oct 23, 2012 14:43:55 GMT
PS as Chris has said there is NO excuse for not knowing the rules (as in real life ;D). If you can read this you can read all the rules on the AEBBA website.
Tony
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 15:31:40 GMT
This competition was originally conceived as a tournament for finding the best club/pub team in the country and for various reasons, including multi-league and even county representation, seems to have denigrated into almost a normal County playoff.... ;) We need to go back to first principles where any normally registered team can enter their respective county's team KO (whatever form that takes) and the winner of that goes through to the team finals as it is supposed to be now Tony I don't think we can go 'back to basics' :D too far on this one, Tony, as we have arrived at the current format through the passage of time and reacting to forces beyond normal control. Go right back to its advent and I think the finals were a North v South one-off match, after separate qualification through the NBBA and the Southern Counties Association. I can remember in the late 1990's winning the Sussex zone with Windmill Z and then the team representing the County, once at Portsmouth and once at Brighton, in the "Southern Counties" (against Hants, Surrey and Kent) but failing on both occasions to proceed further from that stage. I have an inkling that during the 1980s when we were forging links with Jersey that the competition may have been played under 'off-the-spot' rules. And of course the Southern Counties Assoc. has long since disbanded. Remember also that some counties which used to have more than one League are now down to just one league (Berks, Bucks, Hants). I don't really see much wrong with the present format, and to have 8 teams taking part in the grand final seems to be a nice neat arrangement. But as others have said, loopholes in qualification have been taken advantage of in the past - and there has to be one rule covering all to prevent future arguments. |
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Post by barbelman on Oct 23, 2012 16:51:17 GMT
This competition was originally conceived as a tournament for finding the best club/pub team in the country and for various reasons, including multi-league and even county representation, seems to have denigrated into almost a normal County playoff.... ;) We need to go back to first principles where any normally registered team can enter their respective county's team KO (whatever form that takes) and the winner of that goes through to the team finals as it is supposed to be now Tony I don't really see much wrong with the present format, and to have 8 teams taking part in the grand final seems to be a nice neat arrangement. But as others have said, loopholes in qualification have been taken advantage of in the past - and there has to be one rule covering all to prevent future arguments. I think that's what I said Clive... ;D (but with amended rules) Tony |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 23, 2012 17:28:49 GMT
We need to go back to first principles where any normally registered team can enter their respective county's team KO (whatever form that takes) and the winner of that goes through to the team finals as it is supposed to be now Tony I don't think we can go 'back to basics' :D too far on this one, Tony, as we have arrived at the current format through the passage of time and reacting to forces beyond normal control. It is very easy to see both sides of this discussion.... and agree with both of the points made entirely! :-/ But I would tend to think that Tommo has perhaps hit the nail on the head when he says that the game has changed since this competition (and perhaps the Rules for it?) was introduced and we should therefore adapt if we wish to see it continue successfully in the future. 8-) It is obvious from some of the points made on this thread that all of the Counties have their own way to decide which team will represent them in this competition.... in the case of some counties that only have one League that team will be the League or Cup Champions from that County , while other counties (certainly Sussex and Oxon) run an independent competition to determine who will take part in the AEBBA Competition as they have multiple Leagues within the County. ;D We would probably find that many of the qualification competitions are also played under different Rules from one County to the next.... for example Sussex play their Watney Mann Cup games on a "Home and Away" bais, while I believe that Oxon play their games as a "one off" match at a neutral venue. ;D But the biggest change has probably been in the number of players that are playing the game.... and the fact that an increasing number of players are now playing in "multiple leagues", sometimes even crossing County Boundaries to do this. Their entusiasm and support for the game should not be held against them by possibly making rules that would prevent them playing for the team of their choice in this type of competition.... ::) I strongly believe that TRUST and honesty should continue to play a big part in our game.... and also the service provided by the Forum. 8-) Is it really necessary for County Secretaries to have to scrutinise the eligibility of the players before they are allowed to compete at Reading.... and then submit the list to the AEBBA nearly 2 months before the competition is due to be played? :o Perhaps, before the advent of the interet and emails that was necessary.... (maybe that rule dates back to then?) .... but nowadays surely a list shown on the Forum (or emailed to AEBBA a few days before the competition) would suffice and any player that could potentially be "ineligble" would immediately be spotted by everybody! ::) Certainly, in Sussex any "ineligible" players would be picked up in the Qualifying Competition long before a team reached the AEBBA Finals.... ;D ..... so next year we will just have to remember to provide a list of the player details to make sure that we fulfill the other requirements!! :-[ ;D ;D |
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Post by barbelman on Oct 23, 2012 17:50:02 GMT
I strongly believe that TRUST and honesty should continue to play a big part in our game.... and also the service provided by the Forum. 8-) Is it really necessary for County Secretaries to have to scrutinise the eligibility of the players before they are allowed to compete at Reading.... and then submit the list to the AEBBA nearly 2 months before the competition is due to be played? :o Perhaps, before the advent of the interet and emails that was necessary.... (maybe that rule dates back to then?) .... but nowadays surely a list shown on the Forum (or emailed to AEBBA a few days before the competition) would suffice and any player that could potentially be "ineligble" would immediately be spotted by everybody! ::) Now that IS a good idea ;D (and that's what in effect happened in a very small way this year!) Tony |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 22:07:46 GMT
I strongly believe that TRUST and honesty should continue to play a big part in our game.... and also the service provided by the Forum. 8-) A big thumbs up from me too for that sentiment. :) |
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