Team Champs

[bigtj]

Do not see a thread re this but Sussex will be represented by the Laughing Fish.

[peetee]

Oxon will represented by Kennington Club.
P Withey, S Sheard, K Godfrey, I Gordon, M Trafford, K Sheard.

Pete

Northants will be represented by The Fox Inn. (Simon Coleman, Ian Coleman, Stephen Coleman, Colin Coleman and Lorin Coleman!!)

'Mon The Fox!!!

[Chris]

I know there is a thread for this somewhere as I have already entered the Hants Team some time ago but I cannot find it????

Oh well..  

Hants Team is LHFA

[milhouse]

Oct 19, 2012 0:42:24 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

Northants will be represented by The Fox Inn. (Simon Coleman, Ian Coleman, Stephen Coleman, Colin Coleman and Lorin Coleman!!)

'Mon The Fox!!!

Who's Colin Coleman, we know all the rest!

[barbelman]

Oct 19, 2012 0:42:24 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

Northants will be represented by The Fox Inn. (Simon Coleman, Ian Coleman, Stephen Coleman, Colin Coleman and Lorin Coleman!!)

David couldn't make it then? ;D

Tony

[Colemanator]

Oct 19, 2012 9:27:17 GMT milhouse said:

Oct 19, 2012 0:42:24 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

Northants will be represented by The Fox Inn. (Simon Coleman, Ian Coleman, Stephen Coleman, Colin Coleman and Lorin Coleman!!)

'Mon The Fox!!!

Who's Colin Coleman, we know all the rest!

An up and coming star player  8-)

[milko]

Oct 19, 2012 10:14:01 GMT Colemanator said:

Oct 19, 2012 9:27:17 GMT milhouse said:

Who's Colin Coleman, we know all the rest!

An up and coming star player 8-)

Mark, I'll give you some clues....

His surname could be his christian name!
He's in a top profile job on a local BB Committee!
His dad is a fine player!
He should have been playing for his County next month....Whoops!!..I've given it away now! ;D ;)

[milhouse]

From those clues, the only person i can think of is Colin Martin, but i wasn't aware he played in the Northants league, so it cannot be him as he wouldn't be eligible to play for them as per the rule?

28)   Pub/Club Team Competition Rules  
I) A team may enter a guest player PROVIDED he only plays for the team he is guesting for (and
plays regularly for that league if registered for more than one league.). Players are not restricted to the
one county rule in this competition, provided they fulfil the other criteria.

Hi,

I tried, rather exhaustively, last Sunday to get clarity and a definitive statement. Clearly I failed as I was led to believe that Colin would be eligible.

This is because I was made aware that a 'guest' would not be eligible if they had represented another County (not Inter Area) within the playing year however, not the bracketed addition to the rule where a player must 'regularly' play ........!!

Could I please request a definitive position on this ASAP please as if Colin is not able to join us then Northants will again not be able to present a team. In a time where we are constantly seeking to arrest the decline of our game, it would be a pity if it were decided that the integrity of that particular (bracketed) section of a rule - which incidentally is hardly specific (who decides what constitutes regularly!) - should rule us out.

I look forward to your swift advice folks!!

BTW - I may also start to look more forensically that the eligibility criteria are met in full by all teams!! ;-)

[Chris_Sav]

Oct 19, 2012 14:14:53 GMT milhouse said:

From those clues, the only person i can think of is Colin Martin, but i wasn't aware he played in the Northants league, so it cannot be him as he wouldn't be eligible to play for them as per the rule?

28)   Pub/Club Team Competition Rules  
I) A team may enter a guest player PROVIDED he only plays for the team he is guesting for (and
plays regularly for that league if registered for more than one league.). Players are not restricted to the
one county rule in this competition, provided they fulfil the other criteria.

Technically correct I'm afraid LC, but if rule 28 is applied for the first time for as long as I can remember I am afraid most, if not all, teams will be inelible on Sunday.

28)   Pub/Club Team Competition Rules
IV) Registration forms must be supplied (normally by the county secretary) to the AEBBA secretary
by the end of August of that year's competition, to allow scrutineering. Failure to comply with this
will result in automatic disqualification from the finals.

I wonder if Oxford registered their pub team players for scrutineering by the end of August?

Can of worms here.

Sav

[milhouse]

Whether or not you include the word regularly, surely the guest player still needs to be someone who plays in the league?

[Chris_Sav]

I have just warned AEBBASec of the issue and he is going to canvas opinions.

No team registration except his own was submitted to him by the end of August so it looks like Berkshire are the champs ;D ;D ;D.

Sav

[Coleman Jnr]

We as a team would be quite happy to play another northants player. But then we would be breaking the rule of not being a player from the host venue.

Thanks Chris. I am sure that you are right on the issue and that Northants, on this occasion, cannot field an eligible side.

We are unable to field any other Northants players as they have played for other teams in this competition - we use our league Team KO as the qualifier for this.

I guess this means that Northants will need to withdraw.

As I say - pity (but 'rules is rules!').

I will look with interest how the other sides have 'fully met' they eligibility criteria.

[Chris_Sav]

Oct 19, 2012 15:56:05 GMT Coleman Jnr said:

We as a team would be quite happy to play another northants player. But then we would be breaking the rule of not being a player from the host venue.

The guest does not have to play for the venue, he just needs to play in that league regardless of what his 'home' county is.

You need to wait for the AEBBA ruling before proceeding further.

Dav

[Coleman Jnr]

Obviously we will have to wait for a decision by the AE secretary to confirm if we would be eligible to enter the competition after all this has now arisen. I would like to question the guest player ruling, because if the player who plays in more than one league, has to have played regularly for our team anyway, they wouldnt be a guest, they would just be a committed but regular player for our team, not a guest as the ruling suggests. If the guest ruling must remain within the given league, a while back when northants were once again struggling to field a team, my dad, Simon Coleman was unable to step up and enter another team from te northants league, because the secretary at the time stated you cannot represent two teams within the same competition. So can someone please just go over the actual guest ruling, because by the sounds of it, we have to find someone who is registered to the northants league, but doesn't actually play for a team. (If we had too many players like that anyway, our league would not be in the crisis it is)

I hope not to come across as offensive towards others, however it's just a case of we want Northants to be involved in the AE competitions, hence that's why we are trying to resurrect the Northants Open.

I assume the AE comittee will make a fair decision on us if we have broken a rule, as I'm sure they will with all teams that seem to Have broken the rules within this comPetition, as i presume its not one rule for Northants...If not, i agree with Sav, and a congratulations goes to Berkshire for winning the title by default.

[Chris_Sav]

Legally speaking, your guest player will NOT be a player from your pub but any other player in the Northants League who has not played in this competition for another team.

In your case it gives you a problem because the team representing your league is your cup winners, so it excludes anyone who played in another team that entered your cup competition (unless they are from another team at your pub when they are legal anyway.)

Sav

[David.G]

I have been in consultation with some committee members with regards to whether or not allow Colin Martin (Oxon) to represent The Fox Inn (Northants) at the Team Championships on Sunday 21st October.


Under the current AEBBA Rules(2011 version) Colin is NOT ELIGIBLE to play. Rule 28(1) states clearly.

28) Pub/Club Team Competition Rules
 I) A team may enter a guest player PROVIDED he only plays for the team he is guesting for (and
plays regularly for that league if registered for more than one league.). Players are not restricted to the
one county rule in this competition, provided they fulfill the other criteria.

As Secretary of the association I have to ensure ALL Rules and Regulations are adhered to by ALL Counties.

So for this reason the teams from these counties are also NOT ELIGIBLE to Play.

Northants - Sussex - Surrey - Kent - Hants - Cambs - Bucks - Oxon

Rule 28(1V) also states clearly

28) Pub/Club Team Competition Rules
 IV) Registration forms must be supplied (normally by the county secretary) to the AEBBA secretary
by the end of August of that year's competition, to allow scrutineering. Failure to comply with this
will result in automatic disqualification from the finals.

I have known the Berks entry for a number of months and because NO OTHER TEAMS had registered within the time limit, this leaves Caversham WMC(Berks) as the ONLY eligible team.

So where do we go from here. If I invoke Rule 28(1) I must also invoke Rule 28(1V) However this puts the competition as a non-starter.

It also puts the Association into an awkward corner. So a logical and reasonable decision has been reached.

Colin Martin WILL be allowed to represent The Fox Inn for this year. As both rules have been broken I have to be seen to show a little bit of latitude for the good of our game.

I have put RULE 28 up for debate at the AGM in December.

But for now it must remain as per our decision.

Regards
Dave Alder

[Chris_Sav]

Common sense prevails!

[BB Warrior]

Oct 19, 2012 15:47:40 GMT Chris_Sav said:

I have just warned AEBBASec of the issue and he is going to canvas opinions.

No team registration except his own was submitted to him by the end of August so it looks like Berkshire are the champs ;D ;D ;D.

Sav

Looking back at the forum thread for last year, it would seem that most teams only notified details of their players a couple of days before the competition took place.... so it would seem very unfair if that situation was changed for this year. ::)

I do not believe that the SCBBA can have been aware of the rule that teams needed to be registered with AEBBA Secretary by the end of August as the competition that is run in Sussex (Watney Mann Cup) was not even scheduled to finish until the end of September.... :o .... so it would not have been possible to notify AEBBA of the winners when we were still at the semi-final stages of the qualifying competition.  I also know that at least one other county (Oxon) had a similar situation to Sussex. ;D

With regards to the rule concerning "guest players", since each team is meant to be representing a "county" rather than a "league", I believe the wording of this rule perhaps needs to be amended to reflect this correctly for future competitions.... unless the AEBBA are prepared to open the Team Championships to all member Leagues.... which would potentially give Sussex about 10 entries next season! :o ;D

For information, the Laughing Fish team will be...

Dave Ingram
Henry Brooks
Bill Kerr
Tony Jenner
Jim Millward
Ron Sheridan

I am glad that a sensible solution has been found and we can all enjoy a good day at Reading on Sunday.... ;D

[magners]

The Redhill/Surrey representatives this year will be South park Con Club. As far as I am aware they will be lead by the legend DC, with his normal side of Andy Finn, Laurie Roberts, Vernon Sparkes, John Slee and Tracy Guy. Our strongest representative side for a few years. Good luck guys.

As Sav hints, there is a long tradition of problems over the qualifying requirements for this competition.

The Final Edition of BBQ (No.64, Winter 2007) contained the following letter from Geoff Jukes:

"Subject - National Team Championships
I've had it with this competition. I would, however, dearly love to win this again. Dave Constable and I were in the Flying Scud team that won the title in 1976, at the Billing Aquadrome in Northampton.

On reading BBQ63 it becomes obvious that the qualification criteria for playing in this competition is not being strictly adhered to: there were teams there on finals day that were fielding incorrectly registered players and there were teams that were trying to stick to the rules and were left one player short.

Now in the last ten years, on two occasions I brought up a Scud team missing vital players and also ending up one short, trying to adhere to the rules. I know how the Mermaid lads must have felt....no bloody chance of winning the thing!

But more gutting is that while I was playing alongside Chris, Alan and Dennis in the Portsmouth League, on 3 occasions the team qualified for the finals (without me I might add) and then could not use me in the finals either. I was effectively cup-tied by having played for the county of Surrey 3 weeks previously.  We abided by the Rules.

All credit to the teams who played on finals day within the rules and just got on with it. Well done to the Brewery Tap, and to the Horse and Harrow and my old mate Dennis A. The cream rose to the top. I wish I had seen the final, it looked a good 'un.

So, to reiterate, I give up here. Maybe if I am to win this competition again, it will have to be in another county (hell, furthermore what about a County Div 1 title ? Am I good enough I ask myself ?) You just have to be in the right place at the right time.

Giving up,
Geoff Jukes"


Now, I did guest for Geoff and the Scud on the two occasions he mentioned, and as I recall it you were allowed two guests - one player from the pub or club's B team (me) and one other guest player from another team in the League.
It would therefore seem to go completely against the grain to debar an otherwise qualifying person purely on the basis that they have also represented another county in the same year.

I can possibly see a good case to argue if there were still National Ranking Points awarded for this event. But they no longer accompany this one, so I honestly can't see the harm in allowing Northants to include the player they want to make up their team as he fulfils all other criteria apart from being 'tied' to another county.

I am pleased to see that AEBBA have met and in this instance done the sensible thing and allowed Colin to play !
There is of course the loophole to be plugged and no doubt Dave has a handle on this and will be putting a recommendation before the AGM.

[bigtj]

For this year sensibility has prevailed, and as Warrior said, with other commitments the timing of our Watney Manncompetition means we are never going to have the final until mid to late September. In this case would it be prudent to name all teams and their representatives that are left in at the end of August, at least that way we would be within the rules.

As is said we should be within the rules, but also we must look as Lorin says we have to look to promoting the game and maybe rule discussions need to t5ake this into account, as it would be a shame to bar a county from being represented. In Susses especially we have a great number of players who play for different teams in different leagues, so it is always awkward to decide which is someones main team or league, as if the nights do not clash a player may play the majority of games in many leagues.

[Chris]

Gosh never knew about the pre-registration rule by the end of August :o

Really glad to see that it is a fair decision being made by the AEBBA Sec. As he says he would in theory have to disqualify all teams except one if he followed the rules to the letter.

As everyone else has named their players I had better

LHFA
Barry Radford
Lee Radford
Tony Woolvin
Richard House
Fred Large ( if Fred is not able to make it Daniel Woolvin will play )

[curtd]

The team from Kent will be from the Rochester Social Club

Curt Driver
Mark Brewster
Nick Wren
Dave May

Guest player
Gerry Fitzjohn

[SirKT]

Glad to see commonsense has prevailed otherwise this great competition would be another County short.
This matter does need to be sorted out at the AGM though :)

[Pete S]

I must apologize to Dave Alder I knew about the rule on registration but only told him at the county championships. With regard to notifying Dave Alder by the end of August I think a lot of people have not fully understood. All entrants in the competition should be notified to the AEBBA secretary not just the county winners so that eligibility can be confirmed.

So who won ?
I bet Surrey did well with the team they had out. :-/

[bigtj]

Berks won it from Laughing Fish, great well run day, and congrats to Berks on there win, well done to the Laughing Fish on making the final.