Building your own Bar Billiards & Bagatelle table

[paddymcguinness]

Greetings from the U.S.! As I’m sure many of you may know, Bar Billiards is not something we see in the States. I have a strong passion for billiards and pub games and I’ve recently become interested in other Billiard families. Sometimes you may see a Snooker table or Carom table in the over here, but usually pool is the most common.  I’d love to try Russian Pyramid, but no one here has heard of it and there are no tables anywhere due to this. I have seen Bagatelle twice but I honestly have never seen a Bar Billiards table. I know that some people have imported them over from the U.K., but shipping usually costs a lot.
Lately I’ve been considering building my own 9’ pool table. I have a vintage coin operated pool table that I am restoring, but I think building a table would be a fun project. One advantage to this is I could style the table how I want. In my case, I am building an Irish pub / Celtic themed basement game room. So I could build a Celtic style.
Well I got to thinking; what about building my own Bar Billiards and Bagatelle tables? It sounds like a fun project. Unfortunately, there is just no information on these tables in the U.S.

Does anyone have any specs, building plans, and information on Bar Billiards tables? What about replacement parts and where to buy them?
Here’s what I do know:
Playfield dimensions       6’ x 3’ (183 x 92 cm)
Slate bed height      34” (86 cm)
Ball size                  1 7/8” (7 white, 1 red)

I know this is a Bar Billiards forum, but what about Bagatelle? I am considering building a 8’ to 10’ table. Anyone have information on these?

[Chris_Sav]

Hi and welcome,

If you have a dig around the the members only section on bar billiards matters you should find a fair amount of stuff on table repair etc. I believe I put a diagram in there on hole placement. let me know if you cannot find it.

Tommo is our resident expert on bagatelle and I am sure would help.

Sav

Feb 21, 2013 18:48:55 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Tommo is our resident expert on bagatelle and I am sure would help.

Hi Paddy and welcome.

The sum total of what we know on bagatelle is to be found on this thread:
barbilliards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=10901

As with bar billiards, most League play in the UK is on old traditional tables. The difference being bar billiards is played on 70-year-old tables that are lovingly maintained, whereas bagatelle tables are even older and have to be specially adapted for the League by means of the addition of legs: You will find pictures of this if you visit the excellent website of the Chester Bagatelle League, the one remaining thriving one in this country.

We often wonder if there is a future for our minority sport globally, with the Chinese forming an association which has so far proved to have no substance..... Perhaps America could be the answer !    

[paddymcguinness]

That's a good bit of information to get started! Thank you! I shall look though it and how to learn more and more!

Locally there aren't many people who know about Bar Billiards however after doing a bit of research online, it seems there are quite a few people in the U.S. interested in the sport.

Bagatelle is a big confusing as there are so many different size tables. Most of the ones I see are the folding style however if I were to build one myself, I would probably build more of a table style like this:

You are spot on when you say 'most bagatelle tables are of the folding type' - that's how they start off before they are customised for league play. Made at the turn of the 20th century, now over 100 years old, many have survived in various states of disrepair (usually the rubber in the cushions has hardened to rock solid !).  There appear to be three different lengths, 4ft, 6ft and 8ft, with the 8ft being the chosen size on which to attempt the conversion.


The picture you have given shows one to the full league specification, and is comparable with those shown in this snippet from the Chester League website:
www.chesterbagatelle.co.uk/bagatelle_close_up.htm


A clue as to the conversion process is shown from this page of the Cheshire Billiards Company, the specialist refurbisher used by the League:
www.cheshirebilliards.co.uk/case_studies.php


Hope this proves to be of some use to you when building your table !

[paddymcguinness]

I am considering at least an 8 ft table. 10' may be just too big. I want to build a slate bed table and will probably construct it similar to a pool table, using a lot of the same principles. I'm not sure how to do the cushions and rails though... Also it seems there are several different ball sizes.

Hi Paddy,
Some more bagatelle history for you:
www.chesterbagatelle.co.uk/history.htm

If you are planning to build a bagatelle table, bear in mind that this is very much a minority sport in the UK.

If you consider that bar billiards is in the decline and League play only takes place at approximately half the 500 known venues of tables throughout the UK, with about 1,500 active players, then what of bagatelle which just has 12 venues in one city (Chester) and possibly only a handful elsewhere ?

Also, we have seen evidence that hundreds of top-quality bar billiards tables were shipped to the United States in the 1980's, but we have yet to hear of any leagues being formed. We can only assume therefore that they all reside in private homes and have no use other than for decorative purposes ! :o

[paddymcguinness]

Well maybe I should open a pool hall / pub? ;) but I would like to build both a bar billiards and bagatelle table.

Feb 25, 2013 4:39:15 GMT paddymcguinness said:

Well maybe I should open a pool hall / pub? ;) but I would like to build both a bar billiards and bagatelle table.

Some sort of themed pub with bar billiards/bagatelle/pool sounds a great idea. I bet the pool would get played more often than the others though as it's familiar and easier to pick up.

[paddymcguinness]

Unfortunately I think you’re probably right in saying so; I think most people will stick to pool as it’s familiar to most.

I’ve often been thinking of opening a small billiard hall (‘cause I’m broke and can’t afford anything big lol). I thought I could do something like four 9’ tables and then 12’ Snooker, 10’ carom, and 12’ Russian Pyramid. Carom and Snooker are rare to see in the U.S. I finally found a place with a Snooker table about 87 miles from my home. Unfortunately it’s only a 10’ table. I was hoping to see a 12’ football field. Lol As for Russian billiards (Pyramid), it’s even less known. I heard there is a table in Florida somewhere. But I live in Washington State. I thought of a good way to market the place. Offer these forms of billiards since there are not many other venues to play. But then get people to play them by advertising tournaments in each sport, one weekend a month. So one Saturday night I could hold a Snooker tournament with a small cash prize.

As for my home, I want to build a basement game room that is Irish pub themed with lots of Celtic style. I love Celtic knot work. I think I will do green sponge painting for the walls and do traditional natural oak finish wainscoting a 1/3 of the wall. Since I have a passion for stained glass, I will do lots of stained glass accents; wall scones, hanging lamps, window panels, etc. Right now I have an 8’ coin table and a 3 in 1 dining, card, bumper pool table for the room. I have a whole collection of traditional classic board games and will build a cabinet to store them. Depending on the room size, I’d love to fit Bagatelle and Bar Billiards in there. If I’m not lucky enough to find a place with a fireplace, I’ll put one of those fake electric ones in there. It’ll be a very cozy place to go play a game or some darts, or Billiards.

I also have a ton of wood worknig tools and honestly dream of building tables for a career if I can find all the right supplys.

[paddymcguinness]

Tommo, what are 'Dollies' use for in Bagatelle? I saw it mentioned in your Bagatelle topic once.

Feb 27, 2013 15:56:54 GMT paddymcguinness said:

Tommo, what are 'Dollies' use for in Bagatelle? I saw it mentioned in your Bagatelle topic once.

Hi Paddy,

There appear to be several different variations for bagatelle play

Nov 17, 2011 22:13:22 GMT tommo III said:

A YouTube demonstration on how the game is played:



The rules look mighty complicated !

........and the Mississippi version, which requires the set of arches:

Chester League seem to use basic rules, without the arches or dollies. I will have to do a bit more research to find out the exact use of the dollies, though the impression I gained was that additional points were scored by knocking them over - the opposite to bar billiards !

[paddymcguinness]

Let me know if you find out anything on the dollies.

It seems these tables very quite a bit. The legs and lower frame will be a snap, but I get lost in the rails, cushions, slate support, etc. I'm not really even sure what the common rail height is.

Feb 28, 2013 21:45:43 GMT paddymcguinness said:

Let me know if you find out anything on the dollies.

Hi Paddy,
I recall that when Sav - our Forum Leader - bought a French bar billiards table from Calais, it came with a 'dolly' which prompted research at the time as to its use:

Oct 12, 2006 21:41:57 GMT tommo III said:

sav said:

Along with it came this very strange peg
see here.
I guess its for a "Chase the red" type variation. The object may be to knock it over as part of the shot and game some multiple of the score based on the dice, interesting and more suited to some players I can think of!!
Thought you might be interested. Does anyone know anything else of the predecessor t our game??
Chris.

Okay, I'm to bar billiards what Alastair Crowley was to devil worship, and I've researched Sav's special cork pin from the extensive library in my study and come up with the following further information for all you afficionados:

Bouchon (= French word for "cork") A Parisian favourite.
Played with three carom balls and three Corks, each at least 1.5 inches long and placed upright on the table at the Centre Spot, Head spot and Foot Spot. Each player ante's a coin; the 'pool money' is stacked on top of the centre cork. The red ball is spotted at the Pool Spot, five inches from the Top Rail. The object is to hit the red, drive it against one or more cushions, and cause it to knock down the centre cork so that the cork falls clear of its spot without knocking down any other cork. If he succeeds, the pool is his. The second player uses the other white and may Bank either object ball. (Bank means go off the cushion first.) Player three may shoot with any ball. If a player misses, he must add a coin to the pool that is stacked on the centre cork, which becomes progressively less stable with each shot.

Cork Pool.  Simplified version of Bouchon.
Played with three balls and a Cork, which is placed on the Centre Spot and used as a target. The red ball is placed on the Billiard Spot. Each player then places a penny on top of the Cork as a stake. Each shot must be a Cannon off the red to the Cork. When the Cork is knocked over, the Striker wins the Ante. If a player misses or commits a foul, he must add a penny to the Cork.

Coronation Cork Billiards. British version.  
Played with three billiard balls, player 'owns' one of the balls, and with a Cork coloured red and white. The Cork is played on the Middle Spot. Scoring as in 'ordinary' billiards, but knocking the Cork down after the cue ball strikes another is worth 10 points. Knocking the Cork down before the cue ball has hit another costs 11 points. To win, a player's score plus the value of his private ball must equal game total which is set at either 63 or 126 exactly. The game is lost if the total is exceeded.

Bumble-Puppy. Simplified version of Cork Pool.
A three-inch circle is drawn in chalk around the Cork. Each player who fails to knock over the Cork must place a coin upon it. When the Cork is hit, the succesful striker keeps only those coins falling outside the circle. A coin is considered outside if more than half of it lies beyond the circle.

Well, you did ask !!!    ::)

So, there's plenty of mention of Cork pins with rounded tops capable of having coins balanced on top. Apparently there came a stage when the use of coins on tables became frowned upon as there was a tendency for them when falling end-on to damage the cloth. I would imagine that your special pin with the dice-numbered sheath was a later introduction to get around this
problem.  

We conclude that the 'dolly' - or 'cork' - has more relevance to variations of billiards, pool and carom - rather than to bagatelle which can be played with or without the wooden arch 'gate'.

tommo

[paddymcguinness]

Those are carom table games, correct? I have been putting together a giant book of billiard game rules. I have the rules for all of the cork games. Pretty fun but I'm terrible at 3 cushion. Doesn't keep me from trying to play though. :D

Hay Sav, know anyone with the dimensions of a slate bed for a BB table? Is the section behind the baulk area a separate piece? Slate or wood for this area? It's covered in a kind of leatherette (I believe I saw a topic on here) and the slate bed is covered in cloth. So I'm guess these are two separate pieces and each covering is tucked under the baulk seam and stapled to a tack strip on the underside. My guess anyway. I'd need some photos, slate bed measurements, and exact placement and diameter of the holes. Tricky...

[paddymcguinness]

There is a great amount of useful information and photos on here. I think the most important step is to figure out the bed dimensions of each style table.