|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 15, 2013 21:01:31 GMT
Good evening everyone,
I have just read with great interest the minutes of the 2013 AEBBA AGM. Once again my apologies for not attending, but I can’t stress enough how thankful I am for all those people who do so much to keep our game alive through there tireless work. I personally am truly thankful for your efforts.
I have a serious question now, one that I would like to address to all those who attended the AGM. But before asking this question, I would like to refer everyone to the AEBBA Rules and Constitution. I refer to the first section, point number 2….
2). The aims of the Association shall be to promote and encourage the playing of Bar Billiards throughout the United Kingdom, and particularly by the Organisation of Inter County competition.
With this rule in mind, I would now like to ask my question, and rather than risk sending people to sleep (something of which I’m told I do quite a lot on this forum) I will keep this question very simple….
Given the above stated objective, (and I would like to draw special attention to the words encourage and promote) may I ask those who were present why role of Publicity Officer was not approved?
I’ll keenly await some answers, so thank you in advance.
And may I wish everyone out there in the Bar Billiards world a very Merry Christmas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2013 21:14:58 GMT
Where did you see the minutes?
|
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 15, 2013 21:22:51 GMT
The AEBBA website
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 15, 2013 21:23:02 GMT
On the AEBBA site Lorin
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2013 21:28:07 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2013 21:59:14 GMT
Given the above stated objective, (and I would like to draw special attention to the words encourage and promote) may I ask those who were present why role of Publicity Officer was not approved? The sad truth is that it was lost by just one vote......your attendance could have made all the difference.  |
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 15, 2013 22:05:54 GMT
The sad truth is that it was lost by just one vote......your attendance could have made all the difference.
Glenn being there would not have made any difference to the voting as the Brighton League vote was taken by Nige I believe.
Having one of the two likely contenders, Glenn or Lorin, there to put forward some bright ideas might have made a difference to the way others voted on my proposal, we'll never know!
I have long believed we only preach to the converted.
Sav
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2013 22:28:29 GMT
Glenn being there would not have made any difference to the voting as the Brighton League vote was taken by Nige I believe. Sav There could have been a way, if Nigel took the Lewes vote and Warrior had voted on behalf of Horsham (I had fore-armed him with my power of attorney). Chairman would then have had a casting vote !  Other points taken.... |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2013 22:34:02 GMT
Got them, thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 15, 2013 22:56:18 GMT
I would like to remind everyone before this thread goes off topic about the original question, in hope for some answers.
2). The aims of the Association shall be to promote and encourage the playing of Bar Billiards throughout the United Kingdom, and particularly by the Organisation of Inter County competition.
So with this rule in mind, I ask again.
Given the above stated objective, (and I would like to draw special attention to the words encourage and promote) may I ask those who were present why role of Publicity Officer was not approved?
If this is too difficult a question for someone to answer, then I have a follow up question....
Given the tremendous work that has been carried out by those wonderful people like Sav, Dave etc (not to mention the donations from Brian and Paul) we now seem to be in a slightly more stable condition than recent years, where the game has been literally struggling to survive. So it's fair to say that now we can turn our attentions to the expansion of the game (which in turn is what I believe the best solution with regards our survival).
With this in mind, maybe someone would like to fill me in on how the game is currently being promoted and encouraged throughout the United Kingdom? Or the plans we have in place. It is after all the second rule of the AEBBA constitution, second behind only what the associations name will be! So I'm thinking it's of high importance, and obviously with no Publicity Officer needed there is already a strategy in place to promote and encourage the game throughout the United Kingdom. I'm just keen to hear it and maybe (just maybe) in some very (very) small way I could assist. So please someone fill me in, because I'm all ears.
Thanks in advance, and once again Merry Christmas 
|
|
|
|
Post by Sir Chancelot on Dec 15, 2013 23:36:05 GMT
As an outsider looking in, The Chubbster has raised a fair point. His fair and honest questions merit fair and honest answers from the powers that be  |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2013 23:53:27 GMT
PROPOSAL 5) Lost PROPOSAL 7) N/A as 5) was lost So, let me get this right.......... The idea of an AEBBA Publicity Officer was thrown out ? Is that it, then ? Or was there a good reason for it, the only one I can think of being that as many of us as possible should individually attempt to further the interests of the game ?Chubbster's question is similar to mine, above, lodged before the AGM minutes were officially published. |
|
|
|
Post by milhouse on Dec 16, 2013 0:19:50 GMT
To put my opinion into the equation....
First of all, as there was nobody at the AGM who put their name forward and put their point across as to how they were going to promote this role, how could anyone vote for it?
There was a lot of discussion about this role, but without someone there who was willing to take on the role and to put their business case forward, how could you vote for it ?
|
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Dec 16, 2013 0:26:16 GMT
Although I am not one of the "powers-that-be", I was present at the AGM and I feel that it is perhaps unfortunate that the minutes of the meeting do not include any of the discussions about this proposal prior to the vote being taken. Sadly, none of the people that had championed the cause of a publicity officer here on the Forum were present at the AGM therefore many of the ideas and I personally felt that many of the points that had been made here were not effectively transmitted at the meeting itself.  The principal objection to the idea, in my opinion, seemed to be the £500 "budget" that was suggested with the position without any "business plan" (which I seem to remember was the expression of the outgoing chairman) being proposed as to how the publicity officer would effectively promote the game and bring a benefit by their appointment on a national level. Various points were made after that by others present at the meeting along the lines that existing players already "promoted the game" at local level and that this was probably the best way to continue in the future.  As shown on the minutes, the vote was 8-7 against the proposal and probably could easily have gone the other way had either something to actually support the proposal been provided to the meeting giving the benefits of having this appointment or if the people that were actually promoting the idea attended the meeting themselves. Unfortunately, as we all know, the Forum is a great way to discuss things.... however it is NOT the place where decisions are made and it is no use anybody moaning about a decision after it has been taken if those people do not turn up themselves (for whatever reason) to the actual AGM.  I feel that people do also have to bear in mind that although £500 does sound like a relatively small amount of money, it is nearly 20% of the predicted surplus for next year and comes at a time when a new truck to deliver the tables is likely to be required in the relatively near future.... Yes, the financial position within AEBBA is definitely better than it has been for a few years, but AEBBA is not in a position to "risk" £500 without anything tangible to support the idea.  My personal opinion is that a publicity officer would be a good appointment in the long term, but the people that believe that this appointment is essential do need to provide something to show how this would bring benefits to the game as a whole and also the AEBBA.... and then propose this at the AGM next year and attend themselves to make sure that their point of view is heard. So, rather than moaning about the proposal not being approved.... why not do something at local level in the meantime, prove that that works effectively and then bring that to the AGM next year? Surely that is the best way to move this forward and it could provide benefits to the local leagues in the meantime as well.  |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2013 10:08:53 GMT
The principal objection to the idea, in my opinion, seemed to be the £500 "budget" that was suggested with the position without any "business plan" (which I seem to remember was the expression of the outgoing chairman) being proposed as to how the publicity officer would effectively promote the game and bring a benefit by their appointment on a national level. Various points were made after that by others present at the meeting along the lines that existing players already "promoted the game" at local level and that this was probably the best way to continue in the future. Thank you Dave, Not baulking at the AGM decision but it is good to have some 'transparency' as the AEBBA are very good at keeping their cards close to their chest ! For the record, Sav's original proposal (through the Forum) was for a flat budget of £500 which I was unhappy with, but seconded on the basis of an amendment to 'justifiable expenses' up to that figure - in other words the full budget needn't end up being spent. Unfortunately when presented before the AGM the sentiment of a compromise (amendment) didn't appear to have been conveyed. Ho hum Chubbster, there's always next year ! |
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 16, 2013 16:21:48 GMT
An interesting and very much shared sentiment Millhouse. I can certainly understand that because Im aware of how difficult it is to find people. However, my own personal opinion though is that the comment is irrelevant. The AEBBA should not be needing proposal to be made just so it can fulfil and obligation it’s clearly mandated to do in it's own constitution. That’s like the Prime Minister saying on the day he is elected “Thanks for voting for me everyone, now if only I could find some people to step forward to tell me how to do my job…… and then do it for me”
I have to disagree with this point as well. Firstly I'm not moaning, I'm asking a perfectly valid question with regards to the published minutes. Secondly, players who wish to contribute through debate, discussion and ideas about how to better our game should not be seen as moaners, nor should it be a requirement of anyone who has an idea to be expected to do it. That's like saying you can't comment on UK tax policy unless your prepared to run for parliament! Instead we should be seen as a vibrant community who have the best interests of the game at heart, people who although do not have the time to invest in such endeavours themselves wish to contribute in what little ways they can, and hold those who have already been elected accountable. I would remind everyone that's it's the players that above all else keep the game running, with there support of various tournaments throughout the year. That I believe gives us the right to ask questions about what the current plans are, without fear of being mocked or labelled as moaners.
I come back to my original question, could someone please inform me of how the game is being promoted throughout the United Kingdom currently?
Believe it or not, I’m fine with the answer “There is none”. I’m fine with that because I can completely understand the emphasis over the last few years has been on survival, rather than expansion. That’s completely understandable and I above all others have applauded the work done to keep our game alive. But we need to know if there is any current strategy’s in place to better inform our discussions and debate. I would like to here it from the officers rather than through word of mouth and assumption. Otherwise we are building upon shaky foundations, ones where messages are mixed and confusion is rampant.
In my opinion for far too long the AEBBA has been (or at least has been seen too be) a closed shop. One alarming thing I read a while ago was that the current chairmen (and I say this with great fondness for him personally and admiration for all the work he has put in) did not even know that there was a National Off The Spot competition being run. To be perfectly blunt, that makes the governing body of our game we pay into and love so much look at best un-professional, and at worst a complete joke to anyone looking in.
I am truly hopefull that with a new chairmen (many congrats Paul, can't think of a more deserving person), a new era of transparency is about to happen, one where we are frank about the challenges we face, and come up with solutions together. And you never know.... an open dialogue between us the players and the AEBBA might just persuade someone like to myself get on board and actually try a few things. Because without that support from the very top, it just feels like we have an organisation which does what it does behind closed doors and keeps the Reading tournaments and tables running, and leaves the "bigger picture" to everyone else, hoping that not too many pubs will shut, or someone comes up with an idea and just does it. Much like this forum.
We can do better than that, we must do better than that.
So I hope this better explains my case. I'm not trying to cause alarm or panic, nor am I airing any personal gripes. I truly am grateful for all that has been done, and all that will be done by those few who are given there time with no rewards for the benefits of us all. I'm just asking the question.... what's the strategy? and if there is none, I suggest we continue to bash each others ears off and argue until the cows come home until we come up with one, and then vigorously look for someone willing and able to do it.
Or, we leave the survival of our game down to chance and hope that those who already do so much continue to do so, and that the same old faces continue to show there support for as long as possible until the game is nothing but a forgotten memory. The choice is ours..... lets make it a good one.
|
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Dec 16, 2013 18:03:09 GMT
Well, I am not quite sure where you got this idea from....  In my opinion for far too long the AEBBA has been (or at least has been seen too be) a closed shop. One alarming thing I read a while ago was that the current chairmen (and I say this with great fondness for him personally and admiration for all the work he has put in) did not even know that there was a National Off The Spot competition being run. To be perfectly blunt, that makes the governing body of our game we pay into and love so much look at best un-professional, and at worst a complete joke to anyone looking in.
.... but hopefully it was not the same source that you got this information from....
I am truly hopefull that with a new chairmen (many congrats Paul, can't think of a more deserving person) .... as it was PETE Sainsbury that was appointed as the new Chairman, although I am sure you are right to say that PAUL Sainsbury would have been equally deserving for that position!  The simple fact here is that a DEMOCRATIC VOTE was taken and a decision was made about this at the AGM, that will not change before next year so, with all respect to those people who feel that it was the wrong decision I feel that they have no grounds for complaint if they did not attend the meeting themselves and raising the same point here tme after time will not change anything.  |
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Dec 16, 2013 18:56:05 GMT
Dear All I need to be very fair here to Phil Hawkins as chair at the time, as it was me that said there must be a business plan regarding this proposal. £500 or up to, is a lot of money to the AEBBA, especially as we need to look at a newer van in the future. Yes I fully understand that without 'new blood' there will be no future, hence the request for a business plan. Dave is correct not all the discussion is recorded, as the person who did the minutes I don't do shorthand and find it difficult o record all conversations, being fair to Dave he is totally correct it would be good to have all of the discussion. Maybe we should ask if anyone could attend in future who does do shorthand. I fully support a publicity officer. however I would want a business plan as to How? When? Where? By whom? expected Costs? and the Impact/Outcomes expected to the benefit of the AEBBA. I look at it in the same way that Chris Saville has skillfully negotiated Bournemouth. We need some upfront ideas and how this will benefit the AEBBA. I would personally strongly suggest this is put forward again for next year with detail to how it will be achieved, that for me personally would secure a vote if I had one. Chris and a Merry Xmas from me  |
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 16, 2013 18:57:31 GMT
AEBBA AGM Minutes 2012, Page 6….. www.aebba.org.uk/agm/2012.pdfMy sincerest apologies to Paul, I meant Pete and the same words apply. I believe Paul was made life Vice President though, so well done to him also, again extremely well deserved. Sorry that I always get you guys mixed up, at least it wasn’t in person this time, something that I have done on more than one occasion I'm afraid to admit!
I respectfully disagree, I don’t think it is that simple, and I reject the fact there is nothing that can be done about it.
Firstly, failure to vote on a issue does not mean you don't have grounds for an opinion or have the right to question, that's not how democracy works. On this matter your locking out 400 odd members of this forum and every other Bar Billiards player in the country saying they are not entitled to an opinion because they did not go to the AGM. So I'll respectfully disagree with your entire premise there.
Secondly and far, far more importantly (getting back on topic), If I could maybe understand why it was felt not a worthy idea (other than mine and other peoples absence to better articulate the argument) then maybe a few of us could get our heads together and put forward a new proposal, a better one that would serve the AEBBA better, one that more people agree with and has a broader and stronger base of support. I respect the decision at the AGM (I may not agree with it, but I respect it) but a better understand will help us move forward, allow us to re-think if indeed there were valid reasons as to why it was deemed a bad idea. Dave you have mentioned the £500, that’s a very valid point, one that I have taken on board already. So thank you for that.
To simply say “there was a vote, it lost, nothing can be done now” seems a bit defeatist to me, and not in the spirit of what I am trying to either discover or achive. So I get back to my original question…..
How is the AEBBA planning to promote and encourage the playing of Bar Billiards throughout the United Kingdom, as mandated in the AEBBA Rules and constitution?
And the reasons I ask are for transparency, and for better understand of what people feel the problems are, and how they may be address. I have some more ideas of how we could promote the game, and I would be interested to discuss them over the course of the next year. But first it would be good to know what/if there are any plans in place, and if a publicity officer is not the way to go, then what other options are there?
|
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 16, 2013 19:00:52 GMT
Dear All I need to be very fair here to Phil Hawkins as chair at the time, as it was me that said there must be a business plan regarding this proposal. £500 or up to, is a lot of money to the AEBBA, especially as we need to look at a newer van in the future. Yes I fully understand that without 'new blood' there will be no future, hence the request for a business plan. Dave is correct not all the discussion is recorded, as the person who did the minutes I don't do shorthand and find it difficult o record all conversations, being fair to Dave he is totally correct it would be good to have all of the discussion. Maybe we should ask if anyone could attend in future who does do shorthand. I fully support a publicity officer. however I would want a business plan as to How? When? Where? By whom? expected Costs? and the Impact/Outcomes expected to the benefit of the AEBBA. I look at it in the same way that Chris Saville has skillfully negotiated Bournemouth. We need some upfront ideas and how this will benefit the AEBBA. I would personally strongly suggest this is put forward again for next year with detail to how it will be achieved, that for me personally would secure a vote if I had one. Chris and a Merry Xmas from me Thank you Chris, that's extremely helpful and has been taken on board. I must confess to not knowing whether you are Chris or Chrissie . Either way Merry Christmas to both of you, and Chrissie, thank you and good luck for stepping up as Treasurer. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Dec 16, 2013 19:55:29 GMT
Chrissie ... sorry Glen and that just made my day such a good point  |
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Dec 16, 2013 20:02:15 GMT
and Mr Chrs is a dinosaur re computers cannot even turn one on... hence my big smile xxx
|
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 16, 2013 20:11:43 GMT
Chrissie it is then, and once again thank you for taking on the role you have. I know Sav has worked hard to bring everything back in order, so I hope things are a little easier from now on :)
Once again, Merry Christmas to you both. I'll try and get to an open or something next year and say hi in person..... if I can afford it! (just about to get my first mortgage, scary!)
|
|
|
|
Post by The Chubbster™ on Dec 17, 2013 2:51:17 GMT
Tonight I was sent a PM which highlighted something to me. Not sure if that’s what the sender indented, but it hit home none the less. What it made me realise is that I’m not cut out for playing a part in these discussions.
I think it comes down to the problem of which I personally experienced and saw so much in my time running this forum. It’s an old problem and it never seems to get fixed, and here it is.
The written word is just so easy to take out of context.
I started this thread not to have a bash, and not with the intention to offend, but simply to enquire as to what happened at the AGM, highlight some points that I personally felt were important, and to see if I could better understand what people’s opinions were in the hope of better articulating a point next time around. Anyone who got the impression otherwise I can only apologise to. Maybe I’m just really, really rubbish at saying what I want to say. Maybe I ramble too much, don’t re-read my words (I certainly make enough spelling mistakes!), offend without realising it, I really don’t know anymore. But I do so because I believe with all my heart that frank and open discussion leads to constructive debate which in turn leads to a consensus being found of how we can move forward together. I believe it so much and with such passion, it was the primary reason I spent a good few years building this place up.
However such is the way of this forum, things have been taken out of context, and I now find myself defending my words to people who think I’m nothing but a trouble maker, a problem starter, and someone who is all talk and no action. I may be some of those things, but alas that’s it from me. Recently some of these issues have spilt over slightly into the “real” world so to speak, and although probably un-intentional, the last time that happened I was forced to walk away for good. I don’t wish to do that again, because I’m having such a fantastic time playing Bar Billiards with some genuine and dear friends of mine this year, I want to continue as long as possible. I reared my ugly head above the water when I knew what would happen. I should have learnt the first time, my bad.
Make no mistake, I will support our game in every way I can. Not only that but I’m working on something at the moment which I think someone can take over and do a good job with, so I will continue with that. But from now on it’s best for my own sanity if I withdraw from any “official” discussion on boards such as this, because it seems I’m spending half my time trying to persuade everyone that I’m not something which I’m being made out to be.
Even now I can hear people saying “Oh Chubbsters making an epic rant again” and I don’t want to be that guy anymore. After a while if you bang on like I do, the words just don’t have meaning or effect anymore and people just glaze over what you say. So I’ll leave any talk of the future of our game, what can and should be done to other, better, wiser heads than myself, and confine myself to the joke forum where I probably belong Anything I do I’ll do off my own back.
Once again (and I say this a lot not to suck up, but because I mean it) I am truly grateful and appreciative of all the hard work so many people do with regards to smooth running and survival of our game. You guys, people like Sav, Dave Alder, Chrissie, Phil, Paul, Pete, Nigel and all those that help in so many ways are the reason we are here. Your dedication can not be overstated, and the respect I have for you all is huge. I had a game to come back to because of people like you, and given the fun I've been having playing once again this year up until recently... for that I will always be eternally grateful.
Thanks everyone.
|
|
