The Truck and tables future maintenance

[Chris]

We still need an urgent meeting at Bournemouth re the truck. The truck if fixed is 20 years old!!!

I will compose some sustainability options with Sav, which members will have in advance for perusal.

I have not included any of the large personal donations to the issues/costs to date, just the individual donations from all, as you have used the tables. Thanks sincerely to all here

Guys you will have to acknowledge/or not/ if you choose, higher costs to Opens and tournaments for delivery to continue, tables to be maintained I think ???

Long term we need a new van...

Cost 5k - 10k and then even buying a van we need to ensure sustainability of both a van and tables that will need works to be costed in.

So basically whilst we now all own the tables, WE NOW NEED TO OWN A VAN and ensure prices re a van and table repairs reflect outgoing costs.

Chris

[Chris_Sav]

Talking to Dave Alder today, the ECU has been tried in the truck without success, Brian believes it needs unlocking. Brian is waiting for his Electrical expert to come and unlock the ECU.

[Chris]

The ECU is being programmed tomorrow

So we need your fingers, toes and anything else crossed . Those with other powers to use them please , wizards, white witches,

magicians, prayer, tarot readers, lucky black cats, superstition, psychics, star trek transporters, doctor who tardis, stargate, father Christmas

and anything I have missed ..

Chrissie x

[Chris]

Had a text from Dave Alder today the guy who was due to programme the ECU double booked and so did not turn up.

Tables will be delivered by hired van this weekend.

I feel very sorry for Dave who is constantly trying to sort things and every time a new obstacle occurs.

He truly needs our good wishes here

[Chris_Sav]

The final news with the AEBBA Truck is a worst case scenario I am afraid.

An awful lot of work and worry has fallen onto Dave Alder's shoulders over this.

The one piece of the jigsaw that we had no inkling of was that the twenty year age of the truck and its ECU mean that no freelance ECU experts can unlock/reprogramme the replacement ECU as the software is not available. Dave and Brian have had the same answer from every recognised ECU firm that they have tried. The knock-on is that we cannot thus get an independent report on whether the replacement ECU actually works and attempt and refund if it does not! Sadly it appears that our investment last year has been wasted.

Brian has tried hot wiring the fuel pump from the ignition so that the motor will actually run, but performance is abysmal, just enough to get the truck back to Reading empty and without over a ton of bar billiard tables on board.

The problems will be discussed by the AEBBA committee at the start of the Bournemouth Festival. Chrissie Newson will, no doubt, soon start talking about purchase packages. Purchasing the correct replacement truck is a very complex affair with payloads / driver licencing / tacho operators licences to consider before we even consider how to pay for it. Any experienced advice on the pro/cons of going over 3.5 tons max weight will be appreciated.

I will be collecting the seven tables from the Hurst Club on Sunday and covering the Bournemouth weekend with an extra table from Dover/Deal if necessary.

I will be on standby to cover The East Anglian Four Pin Open and The Surrey Open. That is the all I can help with as I will be at Guernsey for the Northants weekend and my rig will be required for motor-cycle club use many weekends thereafter.

Thus critical decisions will need to be made at Bournemouth regarding the future of table hire. We have a month to decide on and put a solution in place.

Sav

  

[barbelman]

Thank you for the update.

Tony

[Chris]

Dear All

I have drawn up some options. I need to state that I have NO PERSONAL PREFERENCE, so please do not comment back personally. They are options for discussion NOT MY VIEWS.

I will post by Sunday for consideration for Bournemouth, the AEBBA will discuss prior to the meeting and add in additional views.

We have to make a decision though.

Chris x

I have to thank Sav as he is just so supporting this more than you all know...

[BB Warrior]

to read this news, especially after all of the money that has been spent on the truck in recent months. I presume that the problem has been discussed with a Mercedes Commercial Garage as well as the independent ECU companies, sometimes the main dealers are the best place to take a problem like this even if they are more expensive?

Having spent the last 30 years in the motor trade, I would suggest that AEBBA would be best to avoid buying a replacement over 3.5 tons as that would involve more specialised insurance and also restrictions on who would be allowed to drive the vehicle. It would also not guarantee much in the way of additional payload, which is actually the important factor here as that determines how many tables the new vehicle could carry.

I feel that the question that AEBBA needs to consider is (if they are going to get a new vehicle) do they want another Luton Van, or would a large Panel Van be a better option? Certainly there will be more Panel Vans available that Luton Vans and prices would probably be lower for that reason, a Luton Van has more space inside but generally the payloads are not better and if the Luton Van has a tail lift it actually reduces the carrying weight that the vehicle can take.... convenience does have its pitfalls.

Another thing to consider that having a long-wheelbase van or a high roof also has an impact on the amount of weight that the vehicle can carry as the actual body weight of the vehicle is greater and that means there is less "carrying capacity" as the body weight forms part of the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and it is the GVW (not payload) that is taken into consideration when it comes to deciding if a vehicles is above or below the 3.5 ton limit.

As examples, the payloads on the Ford Transit Van are shown below:-

Ford Transit 350 MWB (Medium Wheelbase) with Medium Roof - Carrying Capacity 1640kg
Ford Transit 350 MWB with High Rood - 1617kg
Ford Transit 350 LWB (Long Wheelbase) with Medium Roof - 1576kg
Ford Transit 350 LWB with High Roof - 1549kg

So, bigger is not always better as far as what weight you can carry. Similarly, even whether the vehicles is Front Wheel Drive (FWD) or Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) can impact on the carrying weight with RWD equivalents of those shown above taking a massive 127kg off the allowable payloads shown above!

The same variations in payload appear in virtually all commercial vehicles from every manufacturer so considerable care does need to be taken to choose the right vehicles that will be suitable for the job and (hopefully) give many years of service to cover the cost of buying it at this time, especially as we all know that AEBBA is not a rich organisation.

With regards to that, my personal view is that a Ford Transit 350 would probably be a good choice, apart from the fact that they are normally available from many sources at fairly reasonable prices they are generally pretty reliable and cheap to maintain with spare parts readily available. The Vauxhall Movano would be another alternative, although there are usually less of these available in the used market.

I would probably avoid the Citreon Relay 35 and Peugeot Boxer 335 as reliability can be a problem as these get older and the Mercedes Sprinter and Volkswagen Crafter / Transporter Vans are generally more expensive to buy and often have higher maintenance costs.

I would certainly recommend that any vehicle that AEBBA are considering buying should be fully inspected by an independent assessor and that warranties and guarantees should be given that last at least 12 months in the hope that this will ensure that further money is not lost as we are clearly not in a position to afford that.

I hope that this proves helpful and look forward to the meeting at Bournemouth to discuss what will be done in the future.

As a final note, my thanks to Sav, Dave and Chrissie for their work to try to resolve this problem, we do appreciate it.

[Colemanator]

Although I have only just read this, and I haven't spoken to him, Simon Coleman may be able to offer advice on this matter.

[bigtj]

I am not a vehicle specialist in any way so will look to this topic with interest ans am sure the right decision for the good of the AEBBA will be reached.

I would like to just say a great thank you to Sav, Chrissie and Dave for all the time and effort they have put into this, I am sure it is time consuming, frustrating and exhausting to be knocked back at every turn. We will owe them a great debt once all is sorted.

[Chris_Sav]

It's to get knowledgeable opinions that I started this going, having heavily researched the project myself. Thanks to BBW for his input and separate attack as different directions of thinking and knowledge can only help.

I am less concerned about funding as I am sure there will be help, but very determined a balanced and correct decision be made on what we buy.

What must happen this time is the vehicle itself does not put the AEBBA committee at risk of breaking the law as last time.

The initial decision is on van and payload which, including driver and any passenger, must not exceed 3½tons for any driver licence to be valid for.

If we go over 3½ tons and remove the weight problem and long term strain on the suspension from the excessive weights once and for all then a driver with a post 1997 licence cannot drive it unless he takes an expensive additional test. Also any vehicle over 3½ tons needs an operators licence and tacho with a nine week application period. There are exemptions from this legislation for 'not for profit' associations but I cannot see from the information whether this applies to AEBBA as we charge for hiring of goods. I plan to talk to VOSA on Monday as this area is a legal minefield.

Under 3½ tons removes the operator's and drivers' licencing issues but payload is severely limited and near the maximum the van is allowed to carry and remember this weight is often left on the vehicle between hires  to the detriment of the suspension.

All the research I did was based on the  VW Crafter (AKA Sprinter) and Payload for any 3½ ton van above the basic panel van is not enough, it needs to be 1200kg for eight tables and one driver. The Crafter has the best reputation for longevity though is more expensive. BBW's figures on the Transit suggest that we could get away with a 3½ tonner. though it would have to be a high roof long wheel base because the wheel arch would make strapping tables vertically to the side difficult. Similarly with a panel van, any sliding side door could be a problem.

It needs careful examination and knowledgeable advice.

If you have any expertise or access to it then please find out what you can and throw that knowledge into the hat before Bournemouth where decisions will be made. This especially applies to the running of a vehicle that exceeds 3½ tons and the legislation surrounding it.

 

One possible  alternative approach would be to get a 3½ ton van and tow a small closed trailer  with a couple of tables on it for maximum load hires as small trailers are NOT included in the maximum gross weight of the vehicle for tacho purposes. Experience in towing, especially reversing, is then desirable. The VOSA site suggests that a driver with a post 1997 licence can drive a fully loaded 3½ ton vehicle licencing with a small trailer not exceeding 750kgs gross weight behind it.

Thus remember there are several technical issues that should be considered and not be confused in this, before looking at individual vehicles;

 

1) the need for an operator's licence (and tacho) to run a vehicle over 3½ tons.

2) The driver licencing issues around the 3½ ton watershed with or without a small trailer.

3) Damage  from carrying and storing the maximum load on a 3½ tonner long term.

4) Tax costs (minimal) and insurance cost of going over 3½ ton.

A 'weighty' decision! can you advise?

Sav

  

[triplex]

`
I would certainly not recomend going from a 3.5T to a 7.5T vehicle, as it has already mentioned an operators licence would be required. The rules of exemption of an OP Licence is a VERY grey area, the main rules for this is that the vehicle will NOT be used for business use, not used for profit or gain and (not to be driven on a main road for more than 2 miles per week if being used for business). Unfortunatly with previous encounters with VOSA i have found that they are unwilling to give you a definate yes or no.
As i can see it the driver is not being paid for driving the vehicle so thats ok, but as the AEBBA charge for the hire of the tables which will be delivered in the vehicle then it will come under the catorgory of 'profit or gain'

If it was decided that a 7.5T vehicle was the way to go and an operators licence was applied for the following things would need to be taken into consideration: -

1) To apply for an operators licence takes 8-10 weeks and costs around £200.
2) In the application of the licence you will have to state a yard where the vehicle will be parked overnight. They will also require
copies of the bank statements to prove that the association has the funds to maintain the vehicle. You will also require a letter
from a garage to say that they would be in charge of the upkeep of the vehicle.
3) The driver would need to apply for a tacho card and also need to pass a CPC exam which is based on 5 exams taking a day each and
would cost bewteen £125-£250, plus about £20 for the tach card.
4) The vehicle would need to be inspected every 8-10 weeks depending on the conditions of the operators licence which will cost
around £100 and thats if nothing needs doing. Even if the vehicle is not required for a couple of months the inpsections still
have to be done.
5) If the vehicle we purchased was pre 2006 then more than likely it will not be able to enter the emission zone in London, the fine
for entering that would be £600.
6) The road tax is not necessarily more expensive as this mainly depends on emissions so the newer the vehicle you purchase the more
chance there is of it being slightly cheaper.
7) They are also restricted to 56 mph so unfortunatly it would take longer to deliver the tables.
8) Each year when the vehicle requires it MOT it would need to be taken to a truck garage as normal to be checked and prepared then
would have to be taken to a specialist VOSA MOT testing station. As the vehicle would not be used that much it would probally
just require its oil and filters changed and full check over, i would be very surprised to get this done for less than £500.
That is on the presumption that only minor alterations is required on the vehicle.
9) Having a Tacho that also would need to be checked every 2 years which would cost in the region of £50.

The rules and regulations may have changed slightly to this now as i have not researched any of this, its just personal knowledge which i've gained through my years in the motor industry.

With reference to a standard panel van they do not have tail lifts but they are generally a lot lower to the ground but lifting would still be required so it would always be a 2 man job for loading and offloading. With the Luton van the body is basically a box on the back it increases the cublic capacity quite considerbly. I know a couple of years ago when the clutch went on the present van we had to go out and grab the tables off the back on the A43, we used a LWB Transit and it was certainly a lot harder without the taillift. Also it was very tight on room so i would of thought it would need to be a Transit Jumbo which is about 4 metres long but again the weight reduces down to around 1400kg.

This seriously needs taking into consideration for the people transporting the tables as lifting the tables in and out every time would certainly take its toll.

What weight is actually required for the transportation of the tables?

Hopefully i have not bored you all too much and this may be of some help.

[Chris]

Dear All

Following the news that we no longer have a truck the AEBBA committee is holding a meeting at Bournemouth on Friday 7th March at 8.45pm in the main hall for all players.
It cannot be held on the Saturday due to the England friendly.

Firstly we have a spare table to sell at £700. I suggest advertising this on the forum at first to raise more monies for the association.

Financially, we have £6250 guaranteed table hires this year. Before someone counts up and says we have 129 tables booked out ,which is £6708 some tables are hired at a single price for two weekends and some at a reduction as they hold an AEBBA event. So let’s be conservative here.

Any extra income is about £1000 - £1500 on a good raffle year with affiliation fees and table sponsorship. BUT we should never rely on a raffle or anything that is not certain.

From this we have to pay public liability, diesel, van insurance and maintenance ( which will not go away even if purchasing a newer van ), stationery, secretaries fees and other sundries, emergency table repairs. This could amount to £3500 possibly £4000+ on a bad year.

The current AEBBA assets are its tables. If we sell the one above, that leaves 10. You could say that is £7000 worth but I will disagree. It is only worth that, if people are willing to buy them at that price especially in a recession. So my conservative estimate here is £5000.

Anyone lending the AEBBA monies to purchase a newer van should not go beyond £5k ( there are two sponsors willing to do this ) and I would expect the AEBBA to pay back between 1.5k and 2k per year meaning that the loan would be completed within 3 - 4 years. ( if possible more would be paid back making it 2-3 years ) However I would expect to put the table hire up to £60 to make this happen faster and to build much needed capacity in the AEBBA funds.

Do not, I ask you all, go down a route of getting a van that is limited to those with a D2 licence, pre 1997, the upgrade costs for training and taking the test are very high and you could pay for a driver who then gives up the game, you would then have to pay for the next one to train and pass the test.

With regards to which van? I would personally GO SIMPLE. As one who runs 4 vehicles, one of which has a tail lift, 3 of which are under two years old, there are issues that occur and maintenance is always needed. Tail lifts are excellent until they go wrong and then they are damned expensive. Last bill we had was over £1000. I would suggest one that has lower parts costs as well. Don't have a clue here but Dave and Chris did do good case studies see above and this is where I back out and say, up to someone else to make the purchase !!

Now for some options ( Yes there are issues with all of them )

Option A ----- a newer van is purchased that anyone could drive up to the value of £5k and repaid to the lenders over 3 years or less with table hire at £60 per table putting about £1 on most entries to competitions.

Option B ---- No van is purchased and anyone hiring the tables collects and returns them themselves. Cost of the hire of tables is reduced to £20

Option C ---- No van is purchased and we hire the van each time for one of our designated wonderful volunteers to drive, which will cost us about £4000 per year and £1000 in diesel.

Anything else as an Option??????

We would kindly ask that anyone taking part in this thread or the Bournemouth discussion is solution focussed, we need to work for the good of AEBBA and the survival of future table delivery please

For those not attending Bournemouth could you clarify when the table hire will increase so that local associations may amend their budgets accordingly.

Thanks,

Lorin

[Chris_Sav]

Just got in from collecting the tables (bad holdups) and Brian Stevens of Kent has a buyer for the table.

[BB Warrior]

Mar 2, 2014 20:21:47 GMT Chris said:

Following the news that we no longer have a truck the AEBBA committee is holding a meeting at Bournemouth on Friday 7th March at 8.45pm in the main hall for all players.
It cannot be held on the Saturday due to the England friendly.

Although I understand that the England friendly means that the meeting could not be held Saturday evening, it is a shame that it will not be either Saturday or Sunday morning before the competition starts. I know that a number of players will not even arrive at Bournemouth until Saturday morning and I am sure that there will be others who will be going out on the Friday evening.

These people will therefore be unable to attend, bearing in mind the fact that this could be one of the most important meetings that AEBBA ever have, with possibly the future of the national touranments at risk, I would have thought that it would be better to hold this meeting when EVERYBODY will be able to attend.

Please could the organisers reconsider when the meeting will be held and try to fit it in at another time?

[barbelman]

I know nothing about trucks  but I would ask that the AEBBA take the safety and health of their volunteers seriously when specifying what to buy.  As a voluntary organisation, statutory law regarding H&S does not apply but civil and moral law certainly does.  The AEBBA has a duty of care to all it's volunteers in the pursuance of their duties and has to be seen to be addressing any potential safety hazards and risks that are present.  I doubt very much that we have a risk assessment for transportation and delivery of tables but we should do if we aspire to being a properly run organisation.  Easy and costs nothing at all.

The bottom line is that safety of volunteers and helpers must be taken into consideration when specification of the truck size and type takes place, given that we are starting with a clean sheet.  I know there are practical difficulties with doing so but surely to even consider a lorry without a tail lift is irresponsible in the extreme, given the weight and size of what is being handled.

The other point I wish to make is please ask for DONATIONS rather than loans in the first instance, before the AEBBA gets saddled with debts that have to be repaid - you may be surprised!  (or not.. )

There are a lot of very good people out there making great efforts to sort this out and they deserve our thanks, our full support and our money if this unique 'service' is to continue and there are many out there who use these tables week after week who are just not doing that....

Tony

[Chris_Sav]

This highlights the quandary we are in, eight table and one driver = 1200kgs

Get a 3½ ton Luton body and you have barely enough payload and cannot have a tail-lift unless you get a heavier duty truck for which an operator's licence is required and the perils of that have been highlighted by Si. I have not heard from VOSA on the unlikely possibility of an exemption.

Get a normal panel van and you have wheel arches in the way of loading the tables unless you go LWB which can carry less - catch 22. You are also running a 3½ tonner very close to its limits and possible long term storage of the tables on board are a concern for suspension strain.

Go for  a sizeable covered trailer as I use, cheaper and remove all of the insurance, MOT and  most other running costs and you restrict those who can drive to holders of pre 1997 licences and have a BIG towing vehicle. A 2 ton max gross weight van trailer can only be towed (full or empty) by a vehicle of min 2 tons normal running weight (includes tools and one driver, nothing else)

Hence the way forward, though I do not think it ideal, is a LWB Transit as per Dave's post, with the possibility of a light trailer for the heaviest loads (under 750kg gross weight).

[JB]

The other point I wish to make is please ask for DONATIONS rather than loans in the first instance, before the AEBBA gets saddled with debts that have to be repaid - you may be surprised! (or not.. )

Think this is a good idea. Is it possible to start another thread like the one that was done for the tables but just for donations?
There's the truck fund money collected at events and some donations already and it would give people more of an idea of the seriousness of the situation.
It would may also prompt people into donating.

[BB Warrior]

Mar 4, 2014 9:54:37 GMT BB Warrior said:

Mar 2, 2014 20:21:47 GMT Chris said:

Following the news that we no longer have a truck the AEBBA committee is holding a meeting at Bournemouth on Friday 7th March at 8.45pm in the main hall for all players.
It cannot be held on the Saturday due to the England friendly.

Although I understand that the England friendly means that the meeting could not be held Saturday evening, it is a shame that it will not be either Saturday or Sunday morning before the competition starts. I know that a number of players will not even arrive at Bournemouth until Saturday morning and I am sure that there will be others who will be going out on the Friday evening.

These people will therefore be unable to attend, bearing in mind the fact that this could be one of the most important meetings that AEBBA ever have, with possibly the future of the national touranments at risk, I would have thought that it would be better to hold this meeting when EVERYBODY will be able to attend.

Please could the organisers reconsider when the meeting will be held and try to fit it in at another time?

No reply to this request so I have to assume that it is not possible to change the meeting to a time when all players will be there.... what a shame.

I hope that some productive ideas come out of the meeting and that the correct choices are made by the people that are able to attend to ensure that national competitions can continue on the AEBBA tables.

[Chris]

I have only had two responses from the rest of the AEBBA committee. One saying reschedule, one saying leave it as Friday 8.45pm.

Problem with an AM meetings is that it would be before players start to play not perhaps healthy in terms of concentrating on your game for those straight on.

Mar 2, 2014 21:40:05 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

For those not attending Bournemouth could you clarify when the table hire will increase so that local associations may amend their budgets accordingly.

Thanks,

Lorin

Hi,

As per my post above could someone advise whether the decision to increase table hires has already been made - and if so how much is the cost increase and from when is it effective? We have an hire booked and need to know whether we should be budgeting a different amount as soon as possible.

If this decision has not yet been taken, is this one of those being made in Bournemouth?

Thanks,

Lorin

[Sparky]

Hi Lorin

Sorry I do not know the answer but doubt you will get an answer from Sav now as think he is en route to Bournemouth, and will be more than fully occupied when he gets there.

Graham

[BB Warrior]

I don't think Lorin will find out until after the meeting in Bournemouth as there seems to be 3 possible outcomes that have been suggested by the Treasurer, Chrissie Newson....

Mar 2, 2014 20:21:47 GMT Chris said:

[Now for some options ( Yes there are issues with all of them )

Option A ----- a newer van is purchased that anyone could drive up to the value of £5k and repaid to the lenders over 3 years or less with table hire at £60 per table putting about £1 on most entries to competitions.

Option B ---- No van is purchased and anyone hiring the tables collects and returns them themselves. Cost of the hire of tables is reduced to £20

Option C ---- No van is purchased and we hire the van each time for one of our designated wonderful volunteers to drive, which will cost us about £4000 per year and £1000 in diesel.

Option C would not be cost-effective in the long term in my opinion, although could possibly be a short-term fix to get the tables delivered until sufficient money has been raised to make option A possible.

The danger of Option B would be that existing hirers may decide to make other arrangements to source tables for their competitions which would effectively make the AEBBA tables not financially viable to keep and maintain in the future.

As Secretary of the Northants League I am able to venture that we will be fully supportive of the AEBBA whichever option is chosen.

All I would seek to know (as quickly as possible) is whether there will be a change to the price we budgeted for our hire of tables for early May. If so how much. We will find the money but just need to know.

If we are collecting and delivering for our event I am sure that is fine too.

Best wishes,

Lorin

[Chris]

Sorry Lorin my fault here re you not getting a response and not down ro Sav.

I can't give you any answers until after the meeting, no decisions have been made re costs of tables, buying a new truck or anyting else re the future and the tables.

I can say that if a new truck is purchased or that we have to hire one, then prices will need to rise. I have estimayed this to be £60.

Thanks Chris

Thanks Chris. Is that £60 on the price of hiring 8 or £60 per table?

[Richard Stowe R.I.P.]

Hi Chris.
Try this site, it may be of some help to you.
Hope this is usefull.
www.pistonheads.com/classifieds?Category=big-stuff&MaxPrice=3000&Page=1&SortOptions=PriceLowToHigh&isExperiment=True

[Chris]

Thanks Richard

Lorin it would be per table. It would be an increase of £8 per table on the current £52 hire price.

Chris

Ok, thanks for this. We will amend our budget accordingly for the hire in May.

Lorin