Ladies Team Selection for England v Jersey 2007

[Ice Man]

I know I've probably started this topic a little late but feel that after today's events this has to be said.

Firstly i will congratulate both England teams on retaining there trophies. It was a very enjoyable night with the mens international going right down to the wire. The Jersey ladies i felt played extremely well and with a bit more luck we might of pulled off a very impressive victory against the England ladies. My cousin Zoe from what I've heard played extremely well and will without doubt be ladies island champion in the not too distant future!!

However now comes part of reason why I've started this topic. Before the international there was alot of controversy over the England ladies team selection which i must admit made me wonder if it was a bunch of monkey's that were actually picking the team! Eventually clarity was restored and Chelle Baden was quite rightly selected to play for the team.

Now for the actual reason as to why I've started off this topic. Firstly i must say that Jersey is partially to blame for saying that they would only be fielding 5 players in the ladies team. On the night of the international there was some confusion as to how many players Jersey would be fielding in the ladies team as we did actually have 6 players available. It was decided that there would be a reserves match as well for the ladies as we always seem to have one for the mens. As Jackie Clarke was Jersey ladies team captain she played herself in the reserves match. Now comes the biggest bit of controversy of that evening..........

WHY WAS SAMI BADEN NOT SELECTED TO PLAY FOR THE ENGLAND LADIES TEAM IN THE RESERVES MATCH WHEN AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME SHE WAS THE HIGHEST RANKED FEMALE PLAYER IN THE HOTEL?

Now I might be stupid but surely when you decide to play an extra match in an international then the highest available ranked player gets the first refusal on whether they will take the extra place?

If they refuse then surely the next highest available ranked player then gets the option to play or not etc etc.

If this is the case which even a monkey could get its head around then why wasn't my wonderful girlfriend Sami Baden not given the option to play in the reserves match for the ladies. At that moment in time she was the highest available ranked England ladies player in the hotel yet no one even bothered to ask her!

Sami loves playing the game and fully deserved the right to get the chance to play in the reserves match yet no one bothered to ask her.

Unfortunately Bar Billiards is turning into a game where its not what you know but who you know and in this case its pretty obvious that there were outside influences on who should be given the option to play in the reserves match.

Something surely needs to be done to stop something like this happening again in the future coz its going to make a mockery of the game that i love and hope to be one day the best at.

Hopefully Sami will continue to play Bar Billiards in Jersey next season and play well enough to warrant a place in Jersey ladies team. If she does continue to play and does get into the team then all i will say is watch out England coz Sami has the potential to be a very good player and will prove it if given the chance to!!

As a dying sport shouldn't we be trying to encourage younger players to start playing the game and be giving words of advice to younger players who might not be as good as some of the well known youngsters in our game. Without these youngsters this game will one day completely disappear unless we give them the chance to prove themselves. How can any player improve there game without playing at the highest level?


James Jeanne - 2006 Master's Champion!! Feeling a little bit miffed!!

[Chris_Sav]

As I would now guess from this post and the Sussex post that this is all directed at KT I am invoking a 24 hour cooling off period whilst I ascertain the facts.

Re this post, neither Sami nor Hayley are in the rankings, which are unofficial and as a selector (monkey - minus one for abuse Mr jeanne) this year can state they are not used apart from making sure we haven't missed anyone.

Please do not start another post whilst i consult with the other senior staff, they will be deleted on sight and the poster banned as per the rules of this board.


Please bear with me.

Sav.

[Chris_Sav]

I have reopened this thread to invite comment from James as to his previous post.

Does he stand by his statement that the England ladies team was selected by a 'Bunch of Monkeys'

Anybody describing publicly senior All England Officials in such derogatry terms invites the strongest of complaints to their own association and as to their future conduct on this board.

It is my belief that this post was not from James Jeanne and may have been from Sami herself given that she is now in Jersey. I would like to give him the chance to reply before taking further action.

Chris Saville

[Sami Sheard]

erm no it was not from me as u can see if it was i would have openly admit it i don't care wot u lot think of me it is all mindless politics and if u want this game to die u are going the right way about it

[Ice Man]

Yes this post was started by myself and in my opinion with good reason. I do admit that i probably shouldn't of called the England team selectors a bunch of monkeys but at the time i was very annoyed with yesterdays proceedings surrounding another topic started by Chelle Baden.

I sincerely apologies for calling the England team selectors a bunch of monkeys and i admit i was out of order for saying it but honestly feel that something needs to be said about this issue.

Bar Billiards is a dying sport which i think most people will agree with and something like this and the topic started by Chelle just add more to the dying off of this game which so many of us love to play.

I do stand by 95% of what i said but do now realise that i did go a bit OTT in the heat of the moment!!

Once again i do sincerely apologies for saying what i did regarding the monkeys issue but was at the time feeling rather annoyed from earlier proceedings in the day however this is in no way an excuse for my behavior.

James Jeanne - 2006 Masters Champion

[NigelS]

James, please could you clarify for me what the actual rankings are that you quoted in your post above

[Chris_Sav]

Fair enough James, we all say things in the heat of the moment and you cannot retract them on here. Sorry Sami, I was wrong.

As a selector.

Regarding the England selection comiittee this year and your own comment that rankings should be taken into consideration. Michelle was 17th in the 2006 rankings, could we exclude the 12 ladies that had a better season for the last place please? how would we have explained their exclusion to let in a player who had not had a good season.

Regarding the reserve game, it was not a properly constituted reserve match, if it was Caroline Retfalvi would have had first shout and had indicated a willingness to go if the reserve match was on. Regarding what happened out there I cannot comment as I was not there due to a personal crisis, but even so, neither Sami or Hayley is currently ranked, so I don't see what the basis of the rant is.

Regarding selection in general, three uncapped young players were blooded in the open side, that's hardly defensive old hat choices.

Sav.

[Nick (Barnett) (R.I.P.)]

Hi All
Firstly I would like to congratulate James on his victory in The Jersey Masters top 16 tournament, played on Sunday at the Union Inn.

James played superbly all day and never really looked like losing a match, ending the day playing the table out in the final with an immaculate 14,460 break.

With this victory, James becomes not only the youngest player to win the Masters, but may well be the youngest men’s player to win a major singles title in Jersey? (How old was Tim Ringsdore when he won the BIOC in ’83?)

And to cap it off, having had a quick look through my records, he scored the highest aggregate of any player to take part in this event at 74,010 for the four matches played.

The rest of us better start practicing!!!

Full report on the JBBL site: - www.studio18.co.uk/jbbl/


I don’t know anything about the England selection, so I can’t really comment on Michelle’s inclusion or exclusion from England or inter league teams, apart from saying that it does seem odd to exclude someone from an inter league team who has previously played ever match, surely a team is a team?

I can understand how she feels, Michelle is a top ladies player, and I only just scrapped past her by a few hundred on my way to the BIOC final in 1998, as she’s not too shy of reminding me when the subject comes up ::)

The reason for post is not the England team selection, but the Jersey one, and this thread seemed the right place to post it?

As many will know Jenny Noel was excluded form the Jersey team, now there may be a very good reason for this, I don’t know? But Jenny is probably the best lady player the Island has ever produced, and it seems odd, when she clearly wanted to play, that she didn’t, especially when we’re taking on the might of All England.

To reinforce this, the Ladies Island Championship quarter finals were played a couple of weeks after the International, the aggregate of all the other players that took part (apart from Jenny) adds up to 17,060, Jenny’s total by herself was 14,330!!!

I don’t really care about the politics of it all, but surely the point of any selection panel is to select the best team possible to give us a chance of winning?

On Sunday several people also questioned the selection of the Ladies captain, in no way saying that she wasn’t a good captain, but that the selection wasn’t made on the same basis as the men’s captain, as the highest ranked player.

Maybe one of our own selection committee could clarify these points?

Finally, in connection with this international, well done to young Zoe Jeanne who took her first International point, managing to win a leg against the Ladies England no.2.

[Ice Man]

Thanks mate, it was a very good weekend with some superb bar billiards played by a lot of players. I must admit a did have a bit of luck in beating you in the semi's but we all need luck on side sometimes lol.

I also feel the need to congratulate my fellow Royal St Martins team mates Tim Ringsdore and Alan Phillips who both played extremely well to get to the semi finals and finals respectively.

[Ice Man]

nigels said:

James, please could you clarify for me what the actual rankings are that you quoted in your post above

Nigel, i was merely quoting the Sussex ladies rankings for 2006 which now appear to have been amended. However i do not know why Sami Baden's name is now not on those rankings for 2006-2007 because i was under the impression that she had played this season?

[Chris_Sav]

Hi James,

Wearing my (Ex) selectors hat again.

Local and county rankings are considered completely irrelevant when it comes to selecting the national side.

All the selectors consider are player performances on the 'Big'
stage.

The selectors (one from each county where possible) come up with a list of probables and possibles. The probables go straight in. The possibles are discussed and their performances this season and previous internationals examined and players are eliminated one by one (like big bruvver) until the cream has floated to the surface.

I have to say I have not always agreed with the outcome, but I know of no fairer way of doing an impossible task.

Sav

[Nick (Barnett) (R.I.P.)]

Oh I don't remember you having any luck? But then I don't remember much of the day past 7 o clock ::)

The only lucky things were:-

1) Me getting to the semi final in the first place ???

2) The bouncers letting me in Chambers afterwards and the bar staff actually serving me :o

Well done, anyway, a very worthy Champion, we're all going to have to improve if we're going to wrestle the title from you next year

[Ice Man]

Hi Sav

I agree with you there, i know its not easy selecting players for internationals when there are some many leagues/counties that play the game.

Hopefully one day there will be a way of producing an official rankings list including every single player no matter what league/county they play for.

James

[JB]

Sorry Nick
I dont suppose you could modify your post so its not red. Dont know if other people have problems but i find it really hard to read.

(No age jokes please)

[Nick (Barnett) (R.I.P.)]

sav said:

Wearing my (Ex) selectors hat again.

Sav, don't you mean you ex 'Bunch of Monkeys' hat? :-X :-X :-X

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Ice Man]

nick said:

Oh I don't remember you having any luck? But then I don't remember much of the day past 7 o clock ::)

The only lucky things were:-

1) Me getting to the semi final in the first place ???

2) The bouncers letting me in Chambers afterwards and the bar staff actually serving me :o

Well done, anyway, a very worthy Champion, we're all going to have to improve if we're going to wrestle the title from you next year

Can't believe the bouncers let you in Chambers mate, you were well hammered when we left the Union Inn ;)

Thanks again mate its the first major comp that I've won so I'm very pleased with my performance. Haven't played well at all this season so didn't expect to do as well as i did.

Lets see if i can successfully defend it next year!!

[NigelS]

Firstly well done James on your masters win.

I have to agree with Sav that, also with my selectors hat on, that local rankings are not taken into account when picking our sides. We, unlike yourselves, have more than one league, and so we have to judge players on their performances at a national level. Also national rankings are not the factor when picking the sides, these rankings are unofficial and we have to take into account experience, current form and also jersey form as we do play different tables to you over here. As Sav says We use the rankings to ensure noone gets missed. We will never be in a position really to just pick players straight from a ranking list for the teams as I said there are more things that are considered when picking a side to play Jersey. Indeed a good case in point is Michelle as she was ranked 17 in 2006, but moved a lot higher on the selection list due to her very good record in Jersey and unbeaten England record. If we went purely by rankings she would not have made the side.

With regards to whether Sami or Hayley should have been given the reserve match, let me make it clear that neither have yet earned any ranking points at a national level and therefore IMO Hayley had no more right to play than Sam, but also Sam had no more right to play than Hayley. What should have happened is that both should have been asked, and given that they were likely to say yes, a compromise could have been made in that they could have played a leg each, or if Jackie was willing there was time for them both to play her over 2 legs. So I do understand, James, why Sam was upset not to be even asked to play, but I want to make it clear that I think they should have both been asked not one or the other.

What worries me is that apparently you had 6 ladies all along, and somewhere communication broke down and we only thought you had 5. The 6th place would have gone to Caroline Retfalvi who was willing to go if another lady dropped out, and her name was brought forward at the original selection meeting

I will also reiterate that the England Commitee does encourage all young players, indeed 2 years ago I was the youngest player on the side, and now I am the 4th youngest, with 3 players in their early 20s making their debuts this year.

[Sparky]

jo said:

Sorry Nick
I dont suppose you could modify your post so its not red. Dont know if other people have problems but i find it really hard to read.

(No age jokes please)

Yes Jo I too find the 'Red' difficult to see, how about it Nick :)

[bigtj]

Looking at this thread surely this has only come about due to a lack of communication and the person who really missed out is Caroline. Have to agree with Nigel that once the situation had arisen both players should have been asked and a compromise reached if both said yes.

Secondly I can understand people feeling aggrieved but surely the image of our great game is only going to be tarnished if guests read all this personal attacks on individuals and selection commitees.

sparky said:

[Yes Jo I too find the 'Red' difficult to see, how about it Nick :)

Take away the poor fellow's style why don't you ? ???
Didn't you spot that the clue was in his name? ;)

Anyway, he's already changed his ways, judging by his last post which for a change wasn't written in blood, but I'd be interested to know who performed the exorcism. ;D ;D ;D

[Sparky]

tommo said:

Anyway, he's already changed his ways, judging by his last post which for a change wasn't written in blood, but I'd be interested to know who performed the exorcism. ;D ;D ;D

LOL

[Ice Man]

Thanks Nigel for congratulating me on my master's win ;)

I do agree with what your saying and likewise feel that other players should also of been asked if they wanted to play in the reserves match.

Your idea of one player playing one leg and another playing the other is a great idea and unfortunately from what i know was not thought of at the time.

Maybe a compromise could of been reached!!

iceman said:

other players should also of been asked .
a compromise could of been reached!!

Where's Fazza when you need him ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Nick (Barnett) (R.I.P.)]

tommo said:

iceman said:

other players should also of been asked .
a compromise could of been reached!!

Where's Fazza when you need him ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Fazza compromise???? Interesting concept!!!!!

[Ice Man]

Just to set the record straight regarding this topic, Sam Baden had nothing what so ever to do with this topic. This was started by myself and would I like it if everyone would stop accusing her of actually starting it now that she is living in Jersey.

Sam was not aware in the slightest of me starting this post and even if she was it was me in the end of the day that started it, not her!!

I feel rather aggrieved as to what happened at the International match so would like it if all future comments aimed at Sam (My Girlfriend) regarding this issue were now directed at me and not her!!