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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2015 22:40:45 GMT
well said tony, a sensible voice at last, this is just an observation , having being involved with bar billiards for over 40 years it is no wonder the all leagues in Oxfordshire are getting smaller and smaller with all the petty stuff that goes on , it is no wonder that the oxford league is a joke within the bar billiard circle, although this forum is great for information it seems to me that some people use it for there own ends so if the powers that be can restrict it to information only I for one be most grateful The above point has just been made on the Oxford league board, and I have started this separate discussion thread as any comments I make now are not particularly directed at Oxford, but concern all of us. The recent "heated debate" has been allowed to run on a bit far, moderators using their discretion. Tony (Barbelman) was obliged to step in when a direct insult was lodged. In the past, maybe Staff can be seen as having been over-zealous, and I cite the case of Mid Sussex a few years ago where so many warnings were given that people are now no longer inclined to discussion and only visit to post their match results. So do we want to restrict the Forum to "information only" ? Undoubtedly the Forum is a good source of information - both for up-and-coming events and for recording history - down to 'warts and all' level. Those like myself who run bespoke League websites rely on this detail to maintain a regular newsfeed. Unfortunately the (Forum) lily is being gilded at the moment as it is having to act as the Oracle for websites which have vanished, such as the AEBBA's. But by definition a Forum is "a meeting place or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged" and I for one uphold the principle of freedom of speech and the opportunity for open discussion (within the bounds of decency of course). I for one have enjoyed reading the posts of the last week, and someone made the good point that the Forum has recently become a little soulless. If there is one criticism I would make (and I do this as a former senior Staff member who resigned when it all got a bit much) I would say that any issues which have to be resolved at Committee level should remain thus, ie by phone call, text, eMail, correspondence, or meeting of committee personnel - and therefore remaining private. Some moderating comments along the way to this effect might have helped in the current case. What's YOUR view on the subject ? |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Oct 31, 2015 23:19:23 GMT
Agree with Tommo, but just to add that the forum actually acts to help promote interest in all things bar billiards, there should be more discussion , more results posted from more members, to bring together people from all over the country and make new friends, I for one have made numerous friends and acquaintances. As we've all said before for the average poster the written word can rarely convey the exact thought or intensions of the poster, which can set a reader off and the more you post the more chance of unintentionally upsetting someone. Not that I have ever upset anyone or have been upset  anyway after a swift pint to calm the nerves, remember its only a game, so lets all enjoy the challenge, enjoy bar billiards, enjoy the forum, enjoy the discussions and if we overstep the mark then the moderators do their job... and I would say very well too. The only thing that we could do better is minimising criticisms of posts, I know of a few that refuse to post because of negative responses in the past. So keep it all coming, would love to see regular score cards posted from Suffolk, Norfolk, Kent, West Sussex and Yorshire leagues regs cs |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 0:12:51 GMT
Aye to that. And let's not lose sight of the fact that in the last ten years the Forum has actively promoted the game and has brought people together that otherwise would have been unlikely to have met. Reading about the exploits of others in Opens has fostered interest and encouraged participation. Funds have been raised to bail out the AEBBA - twice. Once to purchase the championship set of tables and secondly to fund a reliable van. Pre-AGM discussions have resulted in a set of AEBBA Rules (these had been 'missing' for several years). Then there was a year-long discussion on ranking points, resulting in the system which we have now and all see as fair. Links have been made with our friends from East Anglia who play a different version of the game. We are able to follow progress of the World Championships, almost in real time. Old competitions have been restored, after considerable discussion, examples being the National Off-the-Spot and a Sussex under-30s. Touring parties have been arranged, with people travelling more than 100 miles just to take part in friendly competition (eg to Northants, York, Suffolk) and not forgetting Northants' own 8-counties challenges. These are just a few examples. None of these achievements would have been likely without the existence of the Forum.  |
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Post by bigtj on Nov 3, 2015 8:12:00 GMT
Agree with both of you and a good point is we now have posts coming in from Bucks which is great to see, and long may it continue.
The point of the forum is to have open and honest discussion, but not to overstep the mark as far as being personal or vindictive towards anyone else that posts.
I do think we have in the past stepped in a little early, but also as moderators we need to consider if the debate is for public eyes or if it should be referred to the relevant committee.
Looking at some comments I do wonder if those involved actually speak to each other in person ( which I still believe to be the best way to sort things out, as I would like to think if somebody has a problem with me they can bring it to my attention).
My views on standards of behaviour have been documented on the forum in the past, and I do realise we have a diverse range of characters on here and not everybody will get on, but lets use the forum to promote the game, but have healthy discussion on bar billiard related matters without it degenerating to a public slagging match.
I would say those who are on any committee have an awkward job, and where are some of those who run committees down when it comes to AGMs and standing for the committee and getting their points of view over, always easy to sit on the fence and then criticise others.
Just to emphasise the point try talking to each other it`s amazing what can happen!!!
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Post by BB Warrior on Nov 3, 2015 8:25:22 GMT
I agree with all of the points made above. The Forum is a great place to find out information about our game.... whether that is dates for national competitions, fixtures and results in local leagues or dates of meetings. It is also useful for raising questions about rules, discussions about tables that are for sale or simply keeping in touch with people around the country. I like the fact that discussions can get a bit "heated" on occasions, healthy debate is never a bad thing and it shows how much some people care for the game. The down-side to this is that the written word can sometimes be taken in a very different way to something that is said face to face, especially when some people are less articulate than others and perhaps can not express their view clearly. I do not like the fact that some people only seem to use the forum to "have a dig" at others, often about things that they have no involvement with at all. Personal attacks and comments should not be allowed so the simple answer is not to type things on here that you would not say face to face with somebody. I would like to thank the Forum staff for all of their work here, an unenviable job on occasions I am sure but much appreciated by many. |
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Nov 5, 2015 13:40:24 GMT
I can’t possibly look at a thread like this without commenting, so here I am. I would like to share my views on this particular subject for reasons I'm sure a few of you understand.
When this place was created, it was stage 1 of a 2 stage project. I looked at the landscape of Bar Billiards and realised that the game was hardly utilising any modern technology. Sadly that is still the case. At the time (maybe 11 years ago now) online forms were the primary place for online discussions by various interest groups and subjects both popular but most importantly niche subjects and activities… so it seems a great opportunity given the game was dying nationally (2 opens only when I fired it up) to bring everyone together in debate, share ideas, opinions etc.
Ironically, it was never my intention to make this forum a publicity tool, nor a results, dates or statistics repository. That was stage 2. I had quite an elaborate plan to link this site with a more traditional “mainstream” website that I would improve over time with the latest technologies as they emerged. I’m talking about online blogs and automatic submission forms for national and local news. Results of tournaments, up and coming events, a fully functional and multi user editable online calendar. Front page results feeds, easy to submit news stories….embedded “how to play” tutorial videos, player profiles, league and county contact information, updated rankings, sponsorship opportunities all the way up to mobile phone news apps (not so far fetched believe me). The list goes on and on…. All of those things could and still can be done far, far, far more effectively than using an online discussion forum like this for the subjects I've mentioned.
That was the plan, and if implemented this forum would have remained solely a place for discussion, debate, and for general interaction between players spread all over the country.
What unfortunately happened (depending on which way you look at it) is that the forum took off far faster than I thought. What started as a single board for Bar Billiards players to chat quickly became a monster, with separate league boards, then having to bring staff members on board to assist with moderating. Quite alarmingly the forum soon became the defacto go to place to post results and find news replacing things like local news letters, notification of important dates etc, which doesn’t work for all those players out their without an internet connection. So ironically it was never a place for any of that. I completely understand why it did become that, after all it’s convenient above so many other methods, but it was always meant to be a place for chat, ideas and discussions, not as a replacement for any existing measures that were currently out there.
Of course none of this is in my control now, nor would I want it to be. I suffered abuse at the hands of a forum member about this very forum whilst playing a deciding league match, and that was that. I left the game quite gladly and effectively told the world of Bar Billiards to shove up it’s rear end! So my master plans were never fulfilled….. I have never been honest with my primary reason for leaving, now you know what it is. It gets you down sometimes, please bear that in mind when thinking about what the modderators have to go through....
But I’ll share with you my thoughts about forums in general, especially this one. I would urge everyone to never post/say/imply anything on here that you would not be prepared to say in real life to those you are addressing. If we did that then trust me, the forum would be a much nicer place and more people would use it. I’ve been critical of a great many things in the past, and at times yes..... people. But I will always be prepared to back up what I say in person, face to face, quite forcefully at times if I feel I have to (just ask the poor Brighton Committee). So to anybody out there who likes to get involed with heated debate and gets animated like me at times........ I would ask you to stop and think "Would I be completely comfortable saying this face to face?" If not, then you should not be saying it online....to the whole world....where there is a record of it for all time.....
Also remember another lesson I have learnt…… reading a message is so, so soooooo easy to misconstrue in a way you never would in real life. BBWarrior hit the nail on the head perfectly in his post above…. I kid you not when I say I have seen good friends of many years in this very forum literally go to war with each other, never speak to each other again and drag other people into the mix over such lines as “Nothing unusual there then eh?” If that was said in the pub, everyone laughs and has a joke. But on here without the human context behind it that you naturally get in face to face conversation, it can so easily be misconstrued and escalate into a problem.
One thing that really saddens me every single time I hear it (and I hear it so much) are the words “I don’t use the forum, I’m staying out of it”. When those lines are said to me it makes my heart sink, because so much effort went into making this place what it is, not just by me, but all the other tireless workers that came after me. They moderate, they allow discussion, and in some cases things organised and run from this forum have played a huge part in saving our game. I’m talking about things like raising money for tables etc, debates which lead to changes in systems and rules for the better of our game. All these are good examples of great things we can discuss and debate together. Does it get heated at times? Of course…… but I am quick to say I’m not an argumentative kind of person…..a tireless and animated debater…. Yes certainly. But when I chime in I’m not trying to argue, stir or cause offence. EVERYTHING I post is to further the debate and achieve an outcome that will better enhance our game.
And that my friends is the true meaning and the reason I founded this forum. For let us not forget that the things that unite us are far greater than the things that divide us. We all want the same goals, we just have different ways of achieving them. So I would ask everyone to rise above any petty comments, ignore those that stir on purpose and please accept it as their failings as people….. not those of the technology…… accept the fact that people won’t always agree with you and remember that’s not necessarily a bad thing! Don’t worry about people who don’t like you or try to constantly win them over. Trust me that’s a fight you just can’t win! Ever…….. Use this place in the spirit of what its best at, discussion, debate, information and friendship. That is it’s greatest strength, and that’s certainly why it came into existence…….. that much I know for sure.
And that above all is what I believe the purpose of this forum is and should be, certainly for me, but for us all.
Glenn Chubb
Founder British Bar Billiards Forum
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Post by BigPhilMac on Nov 25, 2015 14:55:30 GMT
I think Dave makes a very good point about the written word sometimes losing its context as it is difficult to articulate when not face to face.
For me this forum has first and foremost been an informational tool. However I love the debate side of it because that is, by definition, what a forum is - a place to express ideas. However I find it tiresome when things get out of hand and it seems to be the same old faces falling out with each other in the same old thread of the forum (we all know who we are!).
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Post by Chris on Nov 26, 2015 21:14:29 GMT
Phil I like your thread totally - especially re 'same old faces' part - we all like to feel we post for the good of the game? the good of the game as in the bigger picture? the good of the game locally ? or the good of the game for us personally ? some are clever at wording posts so it looks like a bigger picture issue but of those - some just like to 'drop the bomb' as in make a point and retire whilst others get heated - seen a few of those type of posts BUT 99% just want the game to grow, flourish and encourage new players! With this in mind any conversation is FAB if it means a respectful community of players, who just want to take responsibility for growing this great sport  I feel it is fairly simple: use the online side of the forum to post general league competitions, results use the online side of the forum to discuss general issues use the personal message side of the forum to raise any personal issues, should you need to When is SANTA coming on here, with the snow ??? more important to me at the moment  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 22:39:36 GMT
Some great responses so far, most of us seem to think that the Forum is multi-purpose. I often think that its importance is taken for granted rather, as it serves to pull everything together - problems develop in the bar billiards world and the Forum supplies the elastoplast. Amazing that it's been running a full ten years or more: the cynic in me says it's rather like pulling on an old sock.  A way of life and pretty indispensable to many of us. |
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Post by BigPhilMac on Nov 26, 2015 23:14:12 GMT
Phil I like your thread totally - especially re 'same old faces' part - we all like to feel we post for the good of the game? the good of the game as in the bigger picture? the good of the game locally ? or the good of the game for us personally ? some are clever at wording posts so it looks like a bigger picture issue but of those - some just like to 'drop the bomb' as in make a point and retire whilst others get heated - seen a few of those type of posts BUT 99% just want the game to grow, flourish and encourage new players! With this in mind any conversation is FAB if it means a respectful community of players, who just want to take responsibility for growing this great sport I feel it is fairly simple: use the online side of the forum to post general league competitions, results use the online side of the forum to discuss general issues use the personal message side of the forum to raise any personal issues, should you need to When is SANTA coming on here, with the snow ??? more important to me at the moment Hear hear, I agree totally Chris that a personal grievance should remain personal and be addressed by the two concerned parties and shouldn't dominate the discussion. A very good point made. |
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A way of life and pretty indispensable to many of us.