Hello from the East Riding

[Stuart Grennan]

Hi all,

My name is Stuart and I am new to the forum. I used play Bar Billiards in the early '90s at the India Arms in Portsmouth. Like the table I have moved on (with the India now being an Italian restaurant) and now reside in the East Ridings of Yorkshire.

I decided a few months a go to start playing and bought privately a Burroughes & Watts table. The table is an Ormco Speciality table and made from Mahogany wood. My intention is to play for a few months and then start working on the table to rejuvenate it. I am not sure how far I will renovate the table as I would prefer to retain some of the wear (history) on the table.

It does needs a pit of a tidy up, the slate is fine and cloth ok (ish), the leather at the end has lifted. The timer working fine, just needed a couple of adjustments. The Mahogany needs to a rub down and varnishing. However, it appears to be quite a solid table with no movement in the legs.

The table measures 34 inch width, so I believe this would be a narrow table.

Overall its appears in good order but I don't know anything else about it. The previous owner had passed away, so I bought it from the family who were clearing the house, so they had no idea.

Is there anyway of checking age and details of a table of this type?

Any help would be appreciated.

Attachments:

Hello Stuart and welcome to the Forum.
I reckon you have a good'un there, Burroughs and Watts are quite rare and much sought after.

I am just a little confused over whether it is a 'narrow' table or not. It is sometimes difficult to see from the angle given in a photo.
You say 34" width for the playing surface, and yes it seems to have been used primarily for the 4-Pin variation of the game (small round leather D and four mushrooms bear witness to that).

But B & W were usually made to standard width (36") and your channel demarcations are standard (two outer 30 holes and one central 10 hole). On a narrow table it's the other way around ! And normally they have a bit extra in length (up to 4" on top of the standard 72" though this can vary) and the 50 pockets are set further down the table and form a perfect diamond shape with the 100 and 200.

So any chance you can do a double check on the dimensions for us ? If it is indeed 34" across, my guess is that you have a Burroughs & Watts frame but a top which has been replaced at some time.

Cheers,

tommo

[Stuart Grennan]

Hi tommo

The frame playing dimensions are 34 by 70 inches. The channel demarcations on the table have been added and are cheap plastic add-ons. The return channels, which have the original markings are two outer 30 holes and central 10.

Hope this helps.

Stuart

[Stuart Grennan]

Hi tommmo

I have just checked under the table and the 50 couldn't be set further down the table as this would be directly on the frame braces across the slate - not sure if that is the right terminology. The braces look original and have not been moved (as far as I can see). It also matches the original point markings on the top of the table (under the plastic markings). The plastic 100 marking looks like originally should be about 2 inches higher to match the hole.

Stuart

[Stuart Grennan]

Not sure if this makes a difference but the table is marked Ormico Speciality made by Burroughes & Wattts for Ormes & Sons Ltd. I read up on the corporate structure between the 2, but I don't whether that changes the dimensions of the table?

[Chris_Sav]

Looks like a perfectly normal standard table to me, have not seen a narrow one made by B & W, though there's always a first!

Cushions are attached differently on these to what most refurbishers are used to, much more like a snooker table with the cloth held in a groove rather than stapled.

Well made tables B & W, now mostly found in Jersey.

Well, when a table is a mixture of makes we can usually spot it as it doesn't look right - but yours looks as if it goes together okay.

Burroughes and Watts weren't a wholesale manufacturer of bar billiards tables, they were primarily a manufacturer of high quality snooker tables, but they did have some commissions for department stores like Gamages and they seem to have had an arrangement with Ormes and Sons for the Ormico Special.

B & W tables are favoured by the Jersey Bar Billiards League and are used for the World Championships each November.

Which version of the game are you going to play ? There is a venue in the East Riding (the Minerva at Hull) but I think they play the standard (3-pin) version which you will remember from your Portsmouth days.

tommo

[Stuart Grennan]

Cheers both!

At the moment I am playing 4 pin, as I have the mushrooms!

Once I have refurbed the table, then I will revert to 3 pin, I will probably look at changing the leather, the cloth is very good still so will remark the table and changed the top table markings.

My intention is to take the legs and the base back to wood and re-stain/varnish. The top will be lightly sand and restained, as I don't want it to look like a brand new table.

[Stuart Grennan]

Purely out of curiosity, I paid £300 for the table, the balls, the mushrooms, the EA Clarke & Son score board and 4 cues (1 Riley (2 pieces), 1 B&W and 2 non-branded) - would that be about the right price. This is for curiosity only!

[Chris_Sav]

I would expect any half decent B & W to go for double that on FleaBay. Working timer is worth over a hundred notes.

I cannot see why you would want to strip it back to bare wood from the picture, looks far too good for that IMHO.

Leatherette edge is a bugger on those assuming it has a full length slate as the last one I recovered, nothing to wrap it around. You'll want the pucker non stretchy stuff if you replace it.

PS I'm thinking of moving this thread to the members area, it's gone way past basics and you are now a member.

[Stuart Grennan]

Hi Sav

I might just stick it down then - lol. From a distance the wood look quite good, it's a little project for me to enjoy doing - nothing more than that!

Thanks for the help.

Stuart

Mar 13, 2016 14:27:41 GMT Stuart Grennan said:

Is there anyway of checking age and details of a table of this type?

Just to add that you have an authentic vintage table and, as hinted by Sav, it would seem a shame to tart it up too much.
The table I bought back in 2006 had tired oak wood, splintering away at the front edge and I applied a thick coat of varnish as my own project. Yours being mahogany already looks good with a glow to it.

These were made during the time frame 1934 - 1950 (with production ceasing during WWII) and the modern tables (made by Supreme and others) simply don't match them for quality and it is very rare they get to be used for league play .....

Any 'battle scars' add to the authenticity !

tommo

[Stuart Grennan]

Thanks and I have been convinced. I will lightly rejuvenate and just deal with the areas where the wood has been knocked and is currently exposed.

Is there anywhere with the correct marking for a 3 pin table, eg D circle diameter etc.

[Chris_Sav]

Last set of rules can be found on barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/2136/rules-game-aebba they contain the measurements. If you re-rubber your table you will need the maximum allowable distance between the break balls (or even a touch more) as the ball comes off sharper with new rubber.

[Stuart Grennan]

Thanks Sav.

The document in the link has helped enormously. The table is standard size and looks like when it was re-clothed the markings on the table were adjusted for 4 pin, for whatever reason. Easy enough to change back. The rubbers are in good nick, as from what I understand it was re-clothed etc about 6 years ago and then unplayed for the last 5 years. Apart from the leatherette lifting and a bit of sun bleach in top right corner it's okay.

I will spend a bit of time looking for older skittles now.

It will just give me the opportunity to enjoy the remarked table and learn more about it.

For the D, you can make your own cheaply if you invest in a compass cutter:

I got mine for less than a fiver on eBay.

I use duck tape (good enough for home use). The gauge markings are a bit odd, but if you set it to a radius of 7.1 on the lower scale, that should be about right.

[barbelman]

Hi Stuart

You can use Colron wood dyes on scratches and dents and polish it up afterwards.  Use it on a dry cloth and wipe off the excess immediately - it will soak into the affected area very quickly.  They do a good range of colours so you should be able to match.

Tony

[barbelman]

Mar 14, 2016 11:12:59 GMT tommo III said:

For the D, you can make your own cheaply if you invest in a compass cutter:

I got mine for less than a fiver on eBay.

I use duck tape (good enough for home use). The gauge markings are a bit odd, but if you set it to a radius of 7.1 on the lower scale, that should be about right.

..or a glass of the right diameter and a scalpel!  

[Stuart Grennan]

Thanks both. Am is missing something though, I thought the D would marked in ink directly on the cloth. Wouldn't a secondary material create a slight lip to play off?

I will have a look at Colron.

Mar 14, 2016 11:49:11 GMT barbelman said:

..or a glass of the right diameter and a scalpel!  

....and a steady hand !

Mar 14, 2016 11:53:28 GMT Stuart Grennan said:

Thanks both. Am is missing something though, I thought the D would marked in ink directly on the cloth. Wouldn't a secondary material create a slight lip to play off?

Yes, the D is proud of the surface. AEBBA rules mention "a ball moving forward off the D" and a scorer would check the elevation of a ball placed right on the edge of the D for a difficult shot and call it as a foul if he/she sensed a drop off.

So many tables we see on eBay have cloth damage around the D area, usually caused by the lack of a proper D and the cloth becoming threadbare by constant direct contact with the cueball.

[Stuart Grennan]

Thank you that makes perfect sense to me now.

[Chris_Sav]

Thought I had covered 'D's elsewhere but could not find it so have updated the thread barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/9508/stickers

[Stuart Grennan]

I think I have a better idea on the table. What I have found out is as follows:

The playing area measures:

- length is c. 142cm
- width is c. 83cm
- height is c.90cm

Those are very rough measurements.

The ball return (original) is marked 30-20-10-20-30. The table top is marked (with new plastic markers) 10-20-30-20-10. The table top point markers will need to come off, although is seems difficult to pull out the holding pins.

The cloth was marked for 4 pin, the spot markers are off with no damage to the cloth. I am awaiting new cloth spots and the cloth to make a D.

The slate is in very good order and has the holes 200/50/100 drilled for 3 pin (the 50s closer to the 200), so no idea why the cloth was marked for 4 pin - maybe the previous owner just enjoyed it! The frame in which the slate fits, looks all original, with all the wood matching the externals and no secondary screw points.

By the end of next week, hopefully the table will then be set for 3 pin again (assuming I can get the holding pins out without damaging the plastic markets as I want to reuse them).

I will then start working on the frame and just staining the exposed wood.

[Stuart Grennan]

Starting to look a bit better now. I have been using a varnish type polish, which a friend recommended (he maintains vintage canal boats). So I have just spent the last few hours cleaning the table up. I am about to order some skittles from Ivor and make the new D.

[Stuart Grennan]

Picture of the Timer

[Stuart Grennan]

I have now repolished the front of the table and table is starting to look quite nice again.

I am awaiting a NOS squire lock, which will finish the front for the table. Only 3 more sides and 2 legs to work on!