Some more rules questions...

[vjmehra]

Apologies if these have been covered before, I'm new to the game (and forum)!

Firstly the set of rules I have says you should (rather than have to) use the red as the cue when available (which is logical of course), but then says that if you pot the red and white from the D three times in a row you can't pot 2 balls in a row on the next shot.

Fairly logical...except you could then just pot 2 whites every third shot and keep on going.

This isn't for a league, just friendly play, but is there a 'standard' for this, I sort of assumed that if you pot any 2 balls for 3 shots in a row from the D, then you can't play the same shot again on the next shot?


Secondly, on the final ball, if you pot it in the wrong hole (is pocket the correct term, they aren't pockets in the normal billiard sense, so not actually sure), what happens?

I appreciate on some tables this isn't possible, but on the table in question, when the back folds down it doesn't actually cover the 30 holes, so you could theoretically pot a ball in either accidentally.


Thirdly once the bar has dropped if you accidentally drop a ball down a hole, what happens (especially if say player A drops it...lets assume accidentally, meaning with the balls left, player B can't win anymore)?


Fourthly, if you clear to the last ball, I believe you then don't lose your break if you hit a peg when trying to pot the final ball...but does that last shot count as part of the break (i.e. if you pot it, is the break x + 100 or is it 2 separate breaks of x and 200)?


Lastly, assuming you put the black peg in the 200 hole for the final shot, what happens if you hit it with the cue ball?


Sorry if there may be obvious answers, but I can't seem to work out if there is a definitive rule set, or whether each league sets its own!

[jelly]

Answers to your questions:

From the break position you must use the red on the red spot and the white from the spot on the D. On your 4th break if you do it 3 times, then you must still play the white and the red, but must not pot both balls. During play i.e. not from the break position, you do not have to use the red, although normally you would. People often play a white in order to not have to wait for the red to come back while getting set up for the next shot.

On the final shot, it cant go in another hole. The scorer would catch it if it's going toward the back holes, and the pegs go in the 50s to stop it going in there. If it goes in accidentally it would need to be retrieved by pulling the bar. When playing and reaching the last ball, your break so far is banked before your final shot. Therefore hitting the white peg doesn't lose you anything. Ok n fact normally the white pegs are put in the 50 holes as mentioned above.

I'm not sure what you mean about accidentally pocketing a ball. If a ball is pocketed during a player's shot, even if a foul, then it stays down. If youean someone physically drops the ball down a hole with their hand, well assuming this was by accident it would need to be retrieved and the game played out.

You do not put the black peg in the 200 hole for the final shot. As you are allowed to aim for the 100 or 200 hole. If you knock the black peg over on the last shot then it is loss of score and end of game.

Somewhere on here there is a link to the official AEBBA rules which cover all these situations.

Hope this helps!
Joe

[jelly]

AEBBA rules cam be found here: barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/19421/current-aebba-rules

[vjmehra]

Ah brilliant, thank you very much for the answers and the link, much appreciated!

[vjmehra]

Some more rule / etiquette questions that I can't seem to find answers too, any help would be appreciated!

1) If a ball is touching a pin (but the pin hasn't actually moved), do you need to move it, or does it stay there?

2) When is it considered acceptable to concede? For example, if someone is say 3,000 up with the bar dropped and 3 balls left, is it acceptable to offer your hand at that point or is it considered poor form before the last ball?

3) Are you allowed to walk down the side of the table to get a closer look at the balls / if you are allowed is this poor etiquette?

4) If you are on a break and clear up to the last ball, your break is banked, but if you then pot the final ball does this count as a separate break, or is the score added to your banked break (as you haven't actually missed)?

5) Is it permitted to keep track of time (i.e. start a stop watch when you begin a game so you have an idea of how long is left) and is this considered poor etiquette?

6) This rule confused me:

If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top
cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses
his break. (This does not apply to the last ball of the game).

If the cue ball doesn't hit another ball, is that not a foul anyway, so does this mean if the only other ball on the table is before this imaginary line the cue ball has to effectively be played off the ball and past the line?

7) This rule did a bit too:

If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it,
no penalty will be incurred and the player will continue with his break, except for any penalty
incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball.

In that scenario I believe you get the points for the ball that was resting on the lip (if it falls), but what if the cue ball (or another moving ball) that would have hit that ball now doesn't (as its fallen) and also goes down the hole (or commits a foul that would not have occurred as perhaps it goes onto hit a peg)?

Apologies in advance for all these questions, but we don't play in a league and are new to the game, so we have no-one to turn to!

[Chris]

1) If a ball is touching a pin (but the pin hasn't actually moved), do you need to move it, or does it stay there?

In our rules as long as the peg is not leaning it stays there[/font]

2) When is it considered acceptable to concede? For example, if someone is say 3,000 up with the bar dropped and 3 balls left, is it acceptable to offer your hand at that point or is it considered poor form before the last ball?

Never really especially if a high break could be achieved by you opponent, or counts to an accumulative home or away score in a league. In a friendly anytime.




3) Are you allowed to walk down the side of the table to get a closer look at the balls / if you are allowed is this poor etiquette?

Yes, but it would not be polite if your opponent is playing at the time

4) If you are on a break and clear up to the last ball, your break is banked, but if you then pot the final ball does this count as a separate break, or is the score added to your banked break (as you haven't actually missed)?

In our rules counts as your break


5) Is it permitted to keep track of time (i.e. start a stop watch when you begin a game so you have an idea of how long is left) and is this considered poor etiquette?

No rules here as far as I know, but my answer is it should be discrete and certainly not a mobile phone timer on the table or on the scoreboard

6) This rule confused me:

If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top
cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses
his break. (This does not apply to the last ball of the game).

If the cue ball doesn't hit another ball, is that not a foul anyway, so does this mean if the only other ball on the table is before this imaginary line the cue ball has to effectively be played off the ball and past the line?

This confuses me too - come on gurus explain !!! But I know what it means

7) This rule did a bit too:

If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it,
no penalty will be incurred and the player will continue with his break, except for any penalty
incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball.

In that scenario I believe you get the points for the ball that was resting on the lip (if it falls), but what if the cue ball (or another moving ball) that would have hit that ball now doesn't (as its fallen) and also goes down the hole (or commits a foul that would not have occurred as perhaps it goes onto hit a peg)?


If a ball falls you get the points for that ball provided no white or black peg has gone down. and you continue even if your cue ball fails to ensure a ball down.

[bobhall]

Jun 19, 2018 20:58:00 GMT Chris said:

1)
6) This rule confused me:

If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top
cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses
his break. (This does not apply to the last ball of the game).

If the cue ball doesn't hit another ball, is that not a foul anyway, so does this mean if the only other ball on the table is before this imaginary line the cue ball has to effectively be played off the ball and past the line?

This confuses me too - come on gurus explain !!! But I know what it mean

This one i feel is rather easy so if you draw a straight line from cushion to cushion in line with black and you play your cue ball and it doesnt go past that line and hasnt hit another ball then its a foul. Scenario you are 600 ahead games close tables tricky and you decide to just roll a ball to the cushion by the baulk line if no rule in place the game would go into sad state


Also if you hit another ball no it doesnt have to go past the imaginary line

Hope that helps

AEBBA Rule 115 is also worth considering:

115) Deliberately foul shot: If, after the bar has dropped, a player - in the opinion of the scorer - deliberately plays a ball directly into a hole without touching another ball, then the ball should be retrieved and the other player allowed to play it. Any additional coins required to do so should be provided by the player deemed to have played the foul.

The scenario Bob described covers a similar deliberate action. Whereas the "ball must cross an imaginary line" rule was really brought in to cover what happens after an accidental mis-hit ("feathering the ball"): It was felt that the player following shouldn't be faced with a disadvantage, whether deliberate or not - hence the ball is returned to the tray.

[vjmehra]

Jun 19, 2018 20:58:00 GMT Chris said:

2) When is it considered acceptable to concede? For example, if someone is say 3,000 up with the bar dropped and 3 balls left, is it acceptable to offer your hand at that point or is it considered poor form before the last ball?

Never really especially if a high break could be achieved by you opponent, or counts to an accumulative home or away score in a league. In a friendly anytime.

Sorry, for clarity, I meant at the end of a break. So for example in snooker if your opponent scores 120, misses and leaves the colours, you wouldn't play on, you would concede the frame. Is the same logic not considered acceptable here?


3) Are you allowed to walk down the side of the table to get a closer look at the balls / if you are allowed is this poor etiquette?

Yes, but it would not be polite if your opponent is playing at the time

For the avoidance of doubt, I mean when its your turn, so say a ball is close to the lip of one of the holes, assuming its your turn, is it acceptable to walk down the side to see how close it actually is?

Great thank you for those answers, that helps, I'm getting there :-)

I actually thought of two more, is it permitted (again it may be etiquette, rather than an actual rule) to keep the balls in the baulk area to place them quicker (not a massive issue for me personally, as I'm probably not quick enough to take advantage, just curious)?

This is just etiquette again, are you supposed to apologise/acknowledge flukes?

If so...where do you draw the line, for example if you leave a ball over the 50 hole on your 4th shot from break (having pot 3 reds and 3 whites in a row), on your 5th shot you then pot say the red in the 50 and knock the white down table towards the 20 hole...but it ends up going in the 30. That sort of 'error' is pretty common for me, so is that something its courteous to acknowledge, or is that just so common for both players its only really outrageous flukes that should be apologised for (e.g. a red in the 200 when it was intended for the 30 somehow)?

[vjmehra]

Jun 20, 2018 8:32:28 GMT bobhall said:

Jun 19, 2018 20:58:00 GMT Chris said:

1)
6) This rule confused me:

If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top
cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses
his break. (This does not apply to the last ball of the game).

If the cue ball doesn't hit another ball, is that not a foul anyway, so does this mean if the only other ball on the table is before this imaginary line the cue ball has to effectively be played off the ball and past the line?

This confuses me too - come on gurus explain !!! But I know what it mean

This one i feel is rather easy so if you draw a straight line from cushion to cushion in line with black and you play your cue ball and it doesnt go past that line and hasnt hit another ball then its a foul. Scenario you are 600 ahead games close tables tricky and you decide to just roll a ball to the cushion by the baulk line if no rule in place the game would go into sad state


Also if you hit another ball no it doesnt have to go past the imaginary line

Hope that helps

Yes thank you, it was the hitting another ball bit that seemed odd to me. That makes sense, so you can't just roll it, but could hypothetically (not sure why you would) play a very risky shot to attempt to play a billiard into the 200 pocket, come up well short and not have a foul called.

[gandalf the untidy]

Jun 20, 2018 8:32:28 GMT bobhall said:

Jun 19, 2018 20:58:00 GMT Chris said:

1)
6) This rule confused me:

If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top
cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses
his break. (This does not apply to the last ball of the game).

If the cue ball doesn't hit another ball, is that not a foul anyway, so does this mean if the only other ball on the table is before this imaginary line the cue ball has to effectively be played off the ball and past the line?

This confuses me too - come on gurus explain !!! But I know what it mean

This one i feel is rather easy so if you draw a straight line from cushion to cushion in line with black and you play your cue ball and it doesnt go past that line and hasnt hit another ball then its a foul. Scenario you are 600 ahead games close tables tricky and you decide to just roll a ball to the cushion by the baulk line if no rule in place the game would go into sad state


Also if you hit another ball no it doesnt have to go past the imaginary line

Hope that helps

Hi Robbo, so you're a guru now, are there no end to your talents

[Chris]

I actually thought of two more, is it permitted (again it may be etiquette, rather than an actual rule) to keep the balls in the baulk area to place them quicker (not a massive issue for me personally, as I'm probably not quick enough to take advantage, just curious)?

This is just etiquette again, are you supposed to apologise/acknowledge flukes?


I really don't see the advantage of having the balls on the table out of the rack:

It is no quicker to get the balls from the rack to the table as it is to get them from the rack to the dee. You have to wait until any moving ball has gone down before taking your next shot
I would worry that balls behind the baulk could be knocked onto the table and therefore this would be a foul.
They are likely to impinge upon side cushion shots - then you have the issue of returning them to the rack to take a side cushion shot.
Lastly, especially if you are new to the game, rushing the game will not help you - clear thinking about the shot you are going to play is best.


Yes it is etiquette to acknowledge a fluke - however as Clive ( Tommo ) will tell you - not all shots that may look like flukes are e.g. take Mr Chris the side and cushion shots he plays often look like flukes but are aimed for !!!!

[vjmehra]

Jun 21, 2018 11:11:05 GMT Chris said:

I actually thought of two more, is it permitted (again it may be etiquette, rather than an actual rule) to keep the balls in the baulk area to place them quicker (not a massive issue for me personally, as I'm probably not quick enough to take advantage, just curious)?

This is just etiquette again, are you supposed to apologise/acknowledge flukes?


I really don't see the advantage of having the balls on the table out of the rack:

It is no quicker to get the balls from the rack to the table as it is to get them from the rack to the dee. You have to wait until any moving ball has gone down before taking your next shot
I would worry that balls behind the baulk could be knocked onto the table and therefore this would be a foul.
They are likely to impinge upon side cushion shots - then you have the issue of returning them to the rack to take a side cushion shot.
Lastly, especially if you are new to the game, rushing the game will not help you - clear thinking about the shot you are going to play is best.


Yes it is etiquette to acknowledge a fluke - however as Clive ( Tommo ) will tell you - not all shots that may look like flukes are e.g. take Mr Chris the side and cushion shots he plays often look like flukes but are aimed for !!!!

I'd agree with you about keeping the balls in baulk, it is of no benefit to me, but I thought I saw people doing it on you tube and wasn't sure what the form was!

[vjmehra]

Thank you for your help everyone, I think I've covered all the rule/etiquette quirks...now I just need to learn the strategy a bit more!