The Rules of Our Game (AEBBA Rules)

[Chris_Sav]

Well we've gone over a decade without a valid rule book.

Kent's attempt to get a set of rules ratified five years ago has disappeared into obscurity.

Myself and the KBBA Chair have formally proposed that the association be tasked with producing a rule book.

Proposal to ARBBA AGM.

Decisions have to be made by our officials at competitions and they MUST have a rule book to base them on.

AEBBA rules as last published circa 1994???

Kent did some work when a now defunct sub committee was set-up bring them up to date, but had no rule amendments to go by.

KBBA thoughts on the existing rules

I have attended the AGM for most of the last umpteen years and driven nearly three hundred miles to listen to the association discuss such dribble as how to toss a coin at competitions.

I know this is going to kick up a storm, but a national sport without a demonstratable set of rules??? The recent NBBA Pub Team finals was a good example

Some valuable discussion time could be had on here in preparation of a rules template.

Chris Saville,
KBBA Secretary

First impressions :

Very noble, Sav, a lot of work has gone into this.

An official set of rules is a MUST. A wrong that has long needed to be righted, let's take this opportunity.

I have downloaded everything to read sometime when I have a spare hour or three.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

The AEBBA needs a Sec first :(

Well, this is how the matter has been left:

Kent BBA have proposed to the AGM (coming up soon, 10th December) that the AEBBA Committee be tasked with producing an up-to-date rule book. Proposed by Sav and seconded by Dave May.

This is a sensible way forward IMHO and needs to be supported. It is probably the most important thing that will be discussed at the AGM.

It should then be sufficient that the working party be left to get on with it and come up with the goods by June 2007.

Sav has however invited our comment on Kent's notes appended to the existing wording: Having now had a chance to sift through, I am able to agree with all the suggested improvements, but feel that there are two changes that appear to be more radical than others, and should really receive discussion on their own merits.

The first is 25a concerning balls bridged over a hole. Our rule already conflicts with the Channel Islands Rule, but now a third variation is being proposed ! I would say, either leave our wording as it is, or adopt the Channel Island wording.

The other concerns 33 vi) concerning a player walking away from the table when a ball drops. Agreed that the scorer's word on the matter is final, and also that a qualification needs to be added. But the actual wording needs to be precise, not necessarily quoting exactly as per the comment added in capitals although the comment is relevant. And the words "having waited a reasonable time" should be added in there somewhere too.


I should state that these above comments are purely offered as a personal viewpoint, and do not necessarily represent the wishes of any particular county !

[Chris_Sav]

This one has now bounced back to me as a result of the AEBBA AGM.

I have been tasked with updating the rulebook to the proposed schedule. I propose to put it on here for you to pick holes in it before it goes back to AEBBA for formal submission to the County secretaries.

This may take a couple of weeks as I am reliant on the new/old AEBBA secs to let me know of proposals over the last dozen years.

Once ready to go I'll get Glenn to set up a temporary board to discuss the rules.

Remember, no rules can be changed!!!! this is merely to bring up to date and clarify the existing rules.

Sav

[NigelS]

Sav, I will assist you in anyway I can with this. As the current TD I am sure I can help especially with what rules are needed re AEBBA tournaments. I think this is the most important issue to come out of this years AGM

When you put it on here to read I will give you as much helpful feedback as I can.

[Chris_Sav]

Cheers Nige and hopefully Peter F.

The initial black holes, obviouds to me, in the rule book are rules relating to the NBBA Pub Team Comp and Everything apertaining to the Alt rules, right down to the positioning of the triangle.

The copy attached to the first post of this thread will be the baseline. If anybody knows of omissions, please advise me, no matter how trivial.

Remember, rules cannot be changed, my mandate is to officialise the current rules. The current rules must be committed to the rule book first. When that work is completed, discussion can start for proposals for rule changes at the next AGM.

Anybody who has copies of AEBBA AGM minutes that can advise me of rules changes over the last 15 years i would appreciate info as it may help save time for the new AEBBA sec dave Alder.

All help appreciated via this board or via email to [e-mail] for those who are not registered.

Sav.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

Nice to see some action is now being done on this and appointing you to sort this out Chris. Hopefully you will get support from those needed to contribute. Members of the forum will no doubt try and help with clarifying of the wording.

[Chris_Sav]

I see no reason why we cannot accomplish this quickly, given that I get hold of the AGM minutes, which I don't have myself.

There was strong arguement from the top table to say this couldn't be done and to try and put the timescale back to a year.

I hope to have a prototype rule book ready for Bournemouth, and will thus be grateful of all constructive criticism.

A lot of the flack Nigel has received is because of the lack of a rulebook.

Sav

As per my comment earlier, I think you've already done most of the "DONKEY WORK". ;)

[barbelman]

sav said:

I see no reason why we cannot accomplish this quickly, given that I get hold of the AGM minutes, which I don't have myself.
There was strong arguement from the top table to say this couldn't be done and to try and put the timescale back to a year.

Sav
I was really confused by the committee's negativity at the meeting but I guess that none of them apart from Nigel would realise how quickly things can be done (electronically) these days. You seem to have done the lion's share of it already and I'm sure with the TD's input you should meet your deadline.

If there is ANYTHING at all I can do to help you then please let me know...

Tony

[Colemanator]

Will the minutes of the meeting be available on here or the AEBBA site?

[Chris_Sav]

barbelman said:

sav said:

I see no reason why we cannot accomplish this quickly, given that I get hold of the AGM minutes, which I don't have myself.
There was strong arguement from the top table to say this couldn't be done and to try and put the timescale back to a year.

Sav
I was really confused by the committee's negativity at the meeting but I guess that none of them apart from Nigel would realise how quickly things can be done (electronically) these days. You seem to have done the lion's share of it already and I'm sure with the TD's input you should meet your deadline.

If there is ANYTHING at all I can do to help you then please let me know...

Tony

Thanks Tony,

Basically there apprears a severe dislike of this forum and the few activists on it from the old exec.

Yes Dave May took minutes as normal and I will publish them as soon as I receive them.

Sav.

The word is, the AEBBA now have a new Secretary, Dave Alder.
So congratulations to him.
Hopefully, any other news of importance will eventaully filter down.

sav said:

Basically there apprears a severe dislike of this forum and the few activists on it from the old exec.
Sav.

That's a crazy situation, one which musn't be allowed to continue.
This forum contains pro-active people, the ONLY ones who are capable of taking the game forward.

We can't have two donkeys pulling in the opposite direction.


Nothing would ever get done !

[Chris_Sav]

tommo said:

The word is, the AEBBA now have a new Secretary, Dave Alder.
So congratulations to him.
Hopefully, any other news of importance will eventaully filter down.

Dave Alder is secretary and a well known distinguished tart member is treasurer (well done Mark).

Hopefully we should row the boat in the same direction. I have already been liasing with Dave Alder regarding the future of the AEBBA site. This is going to have to change as its front door is Dave Barnes web space. Sadly Aebba was also some Northumbrian princess!!!! so that URL has gone.

Glenn might think about a combined front door from the British Bar Billiards URL.

Sav

[Chris_Sav]

Glenn has replied regarding a rules board, which he will soon set-up.

I will post the first version of the rules on there and each rule can then be discussed as a separate thread.

Sav.

I have said before and for the last time I'll state my point.

We need to have a set of rules that everyone plays to. It's crazy that on the Channel Islands they have different rules to the mainland and even leagues in the same County can change.

Good luck to those who are trying to standardize our wonderful game.

The situation isn't quite as bad as you make out, John..........but I can remember a time when it was.

Go back twenty-odd years in Horsham and there were three sets of playing rules, all conflicting: Horsham playing rules, Sussex playing rules and All-England playing rules. Arguments used to rage on when a peg was entitled to be put back on its spot, what constituted a foul shot, which ball came back as the nearest after the bar had gone etc etc. All three were different.

Then Horsham came to an agreement with Sussex that if Sussex adopted All-England Playing rules, Horsham would adopt the same to be in line with Sussex. This was done, and all superflous rules were jettisoned. I believe that at some time all of the other Leagues in Sussex have followed suit (if they needed to in the first place). However, it is natural that all Leagues have their own set of administrative or constitutional rules, and separate ones covering their own domestic cup competitions.

The reason I say is the situation is not that bad, is that already the counties are playing to All-England rules through force of habit. The fact that no-one can put their hands on an up-to-date set is the only real bugbear. And, of course, a considerable source of embarrassment. But now, finally, that's about to be put right.

As regards the Channel Islands, different country - why should they be the same ? We're all part of Europe, but no-one insists that the same language should be spoken throughout. To borrow a French term, Vive la difference ! ;)

[NigelS]

Agree with you there Tommo, with regards to All England rules, once the rulebook is complete, it would be good if counties, and local leagues could then adopt these rules as standard. (I am talking about the playing rules here rather than the rules re the running of competitions)

Most of the rules that do differ from league to league are often about what happens if a ball drops down a hole without being hit, what if someone inadvertenty knocks over the black peg with his cue etc etc. If leagues across the country could agree to adopt the All England stance even if it slightly differs from their existing rules it would be a positive step forward for the game nationally.

However, with regards to the Channel Islands, I don't think it appropriate for them to have to adopt our rules, the tables are different dimensions and they have different pocket sizes. It is right that they agree to play our rules when they come and play in our competitions, and we play theirs when we go over to play in their competitions.

[Sparky]

Well put Nige and Tommo.

[Owners' Account]

Ok guys, the new board has been set up so we can takle it from there...

I hope this is going to be a very possitive thing we are doing. Also congrat Dave, good to see you on board at AEBBA, and also I here a big well done is on order for young Mr Atkins, I here the meeting was run well........

[Chris_Sav]

Just an update.

I should have the minutes shortly I am told.

Sav.

Sav, I believe you are well on the way towards producing our much needed Rule Handbook.

But I would ask you to consider what I feel are a couple of omissions which have recently come to light.

The first one concerns Playing Conditions 1 - 9: I have looked and looked again but cannot find any reference to the accepted duration of table time: I'm sure that once upon a time this was specified as "no less than 16 and no greater than 21 minutes", and I have been quoting this for years at local level.

[EDIT BY SAV] Rule is 15 to 19 minutes

The second one concerns when one of the balls moves as you are about to hit it: it is not deemed a foul shot once you have completed the cue stroke - that's fine. But what about when you are taking the break shot ? Scorers are very stringent about balls being on the spot as you take the break, but sometimes you can get a lumpy D with the ball not staying put properly because there is a mound underneath it. Again I would say once you've performed the cue-stroke you shouldn't be penalised - unless a separate foul occurs; but what about if the red lurches forward before you have struck the white ? You have then played the shot with the ball being off the spot. It would be harsh indeed to be penalised - especially if you had a big break going. This one needs clarification, please.

[EDIT BY SAV] I will add this one as interestingly it is NOT a listed foul shot to play the break with the ball off the spot!!

Sorry to be a pain,

tommo

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

Contovercial the one concerning the break shot I think tommo, in theory maybe a good rule however it would be so much at risk of actual abuse or at least applied abuse or cheating.
A scenario I could envisage is a same county player scoring for his m8 and the scorer calls it back to be played again, because he 'says' it fell off the spot. At an Open the opponent can often be at least 8-10 feet away so could never argue the fact.

My opinion is it happens at all levels of the game, and is the responsibility of the player to ensure it is spotted ok. If I had a problem with a ball not spotting securely I will quite happily give it a dent to sit in if needed.
This suggestion IMO is like saying the ball bobbled when a striker is about to shoot, or a 'kick' happening in snooker or even bar billiards, it is part of the game.

I'm not asking what the rule should be, KP, I'm asking what rule covers it as it stands.

This is now the time and place for all loopholes to be plugged - if there is still an element of doubt how to interpret a particular rule, then all Sav's hard work will have been for nowt. >:(

[Chris_Sav]

Hi Both!!

Update for all.

It is now Feb 12th and I have been trying to get the old AEBBA minutes for exactly two months without sucess. I have tried via the AEBBA Sec and via Fazza who has them. Dave Alder has not managed to get them from Dave Barnes and Fazza is too 'busy'.

I want a draft set of rules ready for Bournemouth and so will fill the gaps myself and post on here.

I will remind everyone that I do not have a mandate to change or set new rules.

Priority One; Complete an up to date version of the alleged current rules including those which have not been adhered to (eg tie break rule with matches lost).

These can be adopted by the All England Committee as they are current rules.

Priority Two; Compile a list of rules that need changing or adding. These can ONLY be adopted at an EGM or and AGM. We can try for Bournemouth, but time is short.

Please put any suggestions for changes as a new thread on this board.

I will have a read through and bring myself up to speed tomorrow (Tuesday)

Sav.

Me understand now: "Kimosavvy" require all back AGM minutes to determine what rule changes were adopted over the years. ;D

At least by our enquiry as to progress we are showing that we care !

[Chris_Sav]

Have to say I am disappointed at the lack of debate on the rules so far. only half a dozen peolple have contributed so far.

It's such an important subject to have an up to date comprehensive set of rules at our national comps.

This will benefit Nigel should last year's problems arise again, help him!!. You also have the situation where the tie break rule has been incorrectly applied for years. I wonder how many times (if any) the wrong team/player have gone through??

Lets have some more input please.

Sav.

[Chris_Sav]

Dave Alder now has almost all the minutes, we may be missing 2003 if anyone has it.

Sav