2019 ramblings on 4 pin rules

[alanturner]

Feb 23, 2019 20:51:16 GMT taffy said:

seriously Dave I would never play from anything but the middle! it was on the centreline not sure about middle if we talk back to front. just played...

curt, your only conclusion has to be....he can't count the daft bugger! if in s=doubt, swap was my rule. sends you stir crazy doing the one shot.

yes a pink but only because a Sams table is so slow returning the ball. I got a Jelks next to it a month later and would suggest banning pinks straight away as being 'totally unnecassary'. fact is, I can only wait so long before I create my own rules at anything!!!!!!

pink ball; only allowed to be used as a red while the red is going down or as a last resort; the 9th ball (absolutely nothing else left). as the 9th ball (so the red is on the table already right) it is played as another white. because the pink has now been both a red and a white and the fact that the pink may stay up while the original red went went down; the rule is that a pink is only a red for that/thee shot off the D. that way, afterwards you don't look at the pink and say; "oh what is that worth?". it is a red for but a fleeting moment.

it actually works but it has more to do with the table than the rules in themselves. the moment you have a Jelks table you just think; WTF?

the pockets/rings
traditionally 50mm these are 52mm but with squared edges. this stops rimming. it is also either a hit or a miss - either in or out. the Jelks black rings suck it down compared to these rings. if i did it again they would be 53mm to match the Jelks browns but as 52s they are about the same as the 'bright reds/saffrons' that most know of.

and don't mention the mushtittles with impregnated tungsten darts weights.

Weebles Wobble but they dont fall down !!!

7mm?
it's easier for you to judge on these tables as it is a sharp corner to the pocket/ring. it should only have about 3mm of cloth showing. if it was any further away it is a lack of checking on the players part!

cheers

Taffy

[gandalf the untidy]

"Mushtitles" eh

[milhouse]

Can you please stop with the 4-pin comments of comps of - "the comp filled up within days...." " 4-pin is growing and 3-pin is dying"..... ALL of the 4-pin comps limits entries at 40/48 entries. If all of the 3-pin comps done the same, then they too would fill their places within a few days.

[daveuk1]

Feb 24, 2019 2:39:29 GMT milhouse said:

Can you please stop with the 4-pin comments of comps of - "the comp filled up within days...." " 4-pin is growing and 3-pin is dying"..... ALL of the 4-pin comps limits entries at 40/48 entries. If all of the 3-pin comps done the same, then they too would fill their places within a few days.

Apart from the specflue East Anglian 4 open which limits entries to 64

[daveuk1]

Possible rule changes for four pin played on wide tables.

Rule as per EA open apart from

From the break shot at least one ball must completely pass an imaginary line drawn across the table at a point taken from the edge of the 50 holes furthest from the baulk lines. Stops the 50-50 split break

In single leg games the second player gets the break back

The red does NOT have to be used when available.


There are 3 changes for starters, anyone got any more or comments on my suggestions?

This is something we need to get sorted and agreed before the next AEBBA agm

[bigtj]

Think that at least one ball must go past the back of the 100 hole is a good idea, and we have talked about that for some time. Only thing I would then say is you take away the skill for those who can master the inside break.

The game is very different on the narrow tables and I personally enjoy the challenge this sets.

[bobhall]

Feb 24, 2019 8:10:58 GMT daveuk1 said:

Feb 24, 2019 2:39:29 GMT milhouse said:

Can you please stop with the 4-pin comments of comps of - "the comp filled up within days...." " 4-pin is growing and 3-pin is dying"..... ALL of the 4-pin comps limits entries at 40/48 entries. If all of the 3-pin comps done the same, then they too would fill their places within a few days.

Apart from the specflue East Anglian 4 open which limits entries to 64

Well once again a 3 pin tournament was full before the closing date and over subscribed so well done guernsey

[taffy]

Feb 24, 2019 8:21:00 GMT daveuk1 said:

Possible rule changes for four pin played on wide tables.

Rule as per EA open apart from

From the break shot at least one ball must completely pass an imaginary line drawn across the table at a point taken from the edge of the 50 holes furthest from the baulk lines. Stops the 50-50 split break

In single leg games the second player gets the break back

The red does NOT have to be used when available.


There are 3 changes for starters, anyone got any more or comments on my suggestions?

This is something we need to get sorted and agreed before the next AEBBA agm

I need longer to think about this but I'd say that if you have one ball going by the 50 hole then there's no need for the break back as well. I'd agree that you don't have to use the red all the time except in a break shot which unfortunately means you wait for the red again!

I think what is really needed is for a request from AEBBA, one that has perhaps never been done before and that is a rule stating that tables should meet a noise and speed criteria. all tables should have ski drops fitted. I'd rather force tables to be quieter and faster so that more people play the game than change the rule stating you must use the red.

ski drops take about 20 minutes to fit. they quieten the game down and they speed the game up.

but the key issue above the slate so to speak is the continuous break shot and I'm not sure what to make of it. I consider myself a real sportsman, there should be a real contest not a wash out by one player with the other not having a go.

I did consider that the rule "no two break shots alike" was simple to enforce and no lines are drawn. I'd prefer this as an interrim better rule than yours Dave. I'd like to see less rules or simple rules.

Perhaps Curt, Phil, Nigel et al would tell us what continually trying the 150 each way is likely to still produce as i noticed at Northampton last year that Nigel had decided to go three one way a totally different shot and back to three the one way.

you see, i don't want to take away a top players skill, just make it that little less worth persueing.

and if that makes the 150 (Roger Rabbitt) just that bit harder and those of us backing the Tortoise could be allowed the old BSE & Nmkt set up of red as the cue ball, that means that it is 110 versus 150.

so I'd ask for this to be considered;
ski drops (fitted with underlay type material) to be fitted to all tables.
use the red as the cue ball at the break shot.
any ball is allowed to be played after the break shot
no two consecutive break shots can go in the same holes.

this therefore doesn't alter the narrow game and everyone still plays under the same rules. we should always ask our selves, is this a better game?

perhaps someone could tell us what alternating the break shot every single time is likely to produce please? I know if I did the 70 each way i don't think I could keep it together for long.

taffy

[Chris_Sav]

It's beyond me why we would want to change something that works.

Four Pin is growing in popularity whereas Three Pin is rather the opposite with some opens getting almost half (or less in Oxford's case) the entries they did ten years ago.

Why try and 'speed up' four pin? In my view it's popular because it is a game of skill, not a glorified speed break as top flight three pin has often become. When the non top echelon player turns up for a four pin tournament, they have a chance, regardless of whom is on the other end of the cue, and will get a shot in every leg.

The more I read through these 'ramblings' the more I come to the conclusion that the four pin rules should be left as they are and certainly not adding confusion by having different rules for different tournaments!

Play to the East Anglian rules (as we have done thus far and must do until rules are changed at an AGM) with mushrooms tight to the high scoring holes is my view.

[gandalf the untidy]

Feb 24, 2019 10:30:21 GMT Chris_Sav said:

It's beyond me why we would want to change something that works.

Four Pin is growing in popularity whereas Three Pin is rather the opposite with some opens getting almost half (or less in Oxford's case) the entries they did ten years ago.

Why try and 'speed up' four pin? In my view it's popular because it is a game of skill, not a glorified speed break as top flight three pin has often become. When the non top echelon player turns up for a four pin tournament, they have a chance, regardless of whom is on the other end of the cue, and will get a shot in every leg.

The more I read through these 'ramblings' the more I come to the conclusion that the four pin rules should be left as they are and certainly not adding confusion by having different rules for different tournaments!

Play to the East Anglian rules (as we have done thus far and must do until rules are changed at an AGM) with mushrooms tight to the high scoring holes is my view.

its not often that i disagree with everything you say Sav, but i do, its sad that so many cant see far beyond their noses

[Chris_Sav]

No problem Colin, that's what discussion is about, but what is there to see beyond the end of  my nose? you do not explain why you are right and "so many" are wrong and thus my need for a visit to Specsavers?

[taffy]

I see your point Sav, I'm easily persuaded back to 'must play the red'. BUT, and it's a big BUT, if we were brave enough to speed up all the Sams, you speed up getting the balls back first and there's no need to play 'any ball'.

I was at the Kings Head in Norwich on Friday playing the only table i have found with easydrop holes (thanks Tommo!) with 4 grooves IN them (not 4 bumps ON them) and it was a lovely game and better, the balls rimmed a little and then shot down the holes just as I recalled from 35 years ago. there was no extra noise at all.

I'm trying to persuade Alan Turner to get hole rings made and try this. perhaps make both standard and quickdrop.

you play on Jelks I trust nearly all the time Sav? up here the wait for the ball on a Sams is obscene, we're playing the top 5 holes all the time so the balls take much, much longer than a ski-shoot 50. those videos i did were all pre ski shoots and just listen to the racket and also when I do need a red or pink back the wait is tiresome.

I have to agree, I would avoid "any ball" until after all tables have been modified. one helluva decision to make but I made my 4 skishoots in about 2 hours the other night.

as you know, I'm trying to introducethe game into many Cambs pubs so I have to sell the game and its at times like this that the naked truth comes out. "look mate, nobody has asked for it", "never heard of it", so i get told the raw truth.

There are some big hitter points that land like a good punch;
bam! it takes up 1/3rd of the space of a pool table
bam! the tables look fantastic don't they sir? They blend beautifully into ye olde Inn don't they sir!
bam! it is the prefered game by the grey pound sir!

the noise has been mentioned and one half interested pub (the Queen Edith, East Cambridge) has said no because of it. The manager is a friend of 'Brett' (group 7) who will be at the EAO and will I hope bear this out.

I hope to persuade you that physically changing the table as a compromise to 'any ball' is a good step forwards.

I should have mentioned you in my question regards the Oxford alternating with every shot.... after all you WON the AEBBA last year (my bad as they say!)

taffy

[tiny]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we stop this endless talk about rule changes or which county should have the 4-pin next ?????!!!!! I enjoy Bar Billiards very much and have thoroughly enjoyed both 3-pin and 4-pin. To me this is a fantastic pastime I enjoy, reading endless paragraphs about tiny insignificant details makes me want to delete the Forum and not bother playing 4-pin at all. Your all entitled to your opinions but this petty squabbling seems to happen every time a 4-pin event is on the horizon!! Lets not lose sight of the fact its just a game and nothing more. The reason I play is the fulfilment of the game and meeting new and existing people but not to sit behind a keyboard wasting my life!!!




Damian Coates

[barbelman]

Feb 24, 2019 21:46:02 GMT tiny said:

The reason I play is the fulfilment of the game and meeting new and existing people but not to sit behind a keyboard wasting my life!!!
Damian Coates

Well said...but does the above include your many aliases? 

Remember also please, it IS a Forum for ALL bar billiards players but I can see it's a pain for those who read it on a phone or small pad or are disinterested.

[stevehale]

I don’t see why we just can’t all get along. 😢

I’m just looking forward to continuing good friendships by drinking copious amounts of beer with fellow barbilliardians.

However I still say the rules should be adhered to as per AEBBA rulings that EA rules should be followed until an alternative has been agreed and ratified by the AEBBA.

I’m going to continue drinking beer now with DaveUK1, and it’s his round🍺🍺👍

[daveuk1]

For the sake of everyone, why can't we all agree by the rules set by aebba a few years back? ie rules for four pin tournaments should be those in force for the EA open. This will give everyone chance to cool off. In the mean time the aebba should set up a group of people/players who can come up with an alternative set of rules for four pin played on standard/wide tables which can then be voted on at the next agm.

[taffy]

I think if we were to say things to peoples faces we wouldn't speak the way we are here. Damian's comments are particularly inflammatory. as it was, i thought we were getting along just fine. the title is "2019 ramblings on 4 pin rules" so I think the thread is doing just fine. there seems to be something wrong with the online process, what face to face would be a concensus chat seems to be a stand upon thine honour when it's put on the net. nobody's fault really, just proves how life works.

I don't see recognition of the fact that there is any need for change so it's going to be a tough one this.....

Lawrence of Arabia, Jack Hawkins is Gen. Allenby.
Col. Harry Brighton: Look, sir, we can't just do nothing.
Gen. Allenby: Why not? It's usually best.

Taffy

[lewis]

Feb 21, 2019 18:31:42 GMT tommo III said:

You ask Dave how it all came about. For this you have to visit the minutes of the 2016 AEBBA AGM
Quote:

Proposal 3
Current reading:
54) Jersey and Guernsey will be invited to provide entries to the All England Individuals, Ladies
Individuals, Team Competitions and the County Championships as they are associate members.
a) Alternate (Triangle) Rules:
b) The break position for this variation is to play a ball from the centre of the 'D' to hit a triangle of
six white balls.
c) The triangle of balls is to be placed on the centre line between the 100 hole and the 10 hole, lead
ball nearest the 100 hole, with its centre 14 cm from the centre of the 100 hole.
d) Should insufficient balls be available to fill the triangle after the bar has dropped, the triangle will
be built row by row from the front and right hand side.
e) All shots to be played 'off-the-spot' from the centre of the 'D'.
f) The black skittle will only count as a white for this competition, except for the 'last ball shot'.
g) A.E.B.B.A. will only supply trophies to the winners, runners-up and highest break.

Replace with:

54) Jersey and Guernsey will be invited to provide entries to the All England Individuals, Ladies
Individuals, Team Competitions and the County Championships as they are associate members.
Page 10 of 12
AEBBA Annual General Meeting 2016
Alternative Rules
a) When “Triangles” version used:
i) The break position for this variation is to play a ball from the centre of the 'D' to hit a triangle of
six white balls.
ii) The triangle of balls is to be placed on the centre line between the 100 hole and the 10 hole, lead
ball nearest the 100 hole, with its centre 14 cm from the centre of the 100 hole.
iii) Should insufficient balls be available to fill the triangle after the bar has dropped, the triangle will
be built row by row from the front and right hand side.
iv) All shots to be played 'off-the-spot' from the centre of the 'D'.
v) The black skittle will only count as a white for this competition, except for the 'last ball shot'.
b) When run as “Off the Spot” (hosted in turn by Counties on behalf of AEBBA):
Normal playing rules apply – apart from that ALL shots must be played from the centre of the D:
failure to observe constituting a foul shot.
c) When run as a “4-Pin” competition (hosted by Counties on behalf of AEBBA):
Rules as employed in the East Anglian Open apply.
d) A.E.B.B.A. will only supply trophies to the winners, runners-up and highest break.
NB. If passed, for the sake of clarity the words “Alternate Rules” (itself a misnomer) should be
removed from Rule 47 as the competition is in essence an Open.
Proposed by: Clive Thompson
Seconded by: Colin Southouse
Vote: Unanimous in favour and accepted for the 2017 competition.

Colin and I worded it so that "Alternative Rules" could be one of three variants. The National Off-the-Spot had just been restored to the calendar but needed its own niche, the danger being in the wording "Alternate" which was suggestive of alternating it with Triangles.

The dual purpose of the proposal therefore was a) to gain acceptance of this new event, and b) that AEBBA could then decide which one to run each year, Off-the-Spot, Triangles or 4-Pin - all alternative versions of the noble game of bar billiards.

At the time, words were being said about there being "too many events on the calendar". Triangles seemed to be losing favour so there would be a chance to drop it completely, in favour of Northants' fabulous new competition, which was being denigrated in certain quarters as "Mickey Mouse", unworthy of earning national ranking status.

Those of us who had taken part in the first one argued that with participants from several different counties it certainly had the same atmosphere as an Open.

But as we know, all three "Alternatives" attract their own set of punters and accordingly all three are now being run side-by-side. People do not seem to worry any more about there being too many events, with the County Championships reduced to two days and other events with smaller lineups skillfully shoehorned into the same day.

Well, you did ask !