AEBBA 4-pin Open Championships 2019

May 10, 2019 21:26:16 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Just found this from last year subsequent to the competition so may well be up to date as I do not remember any changes this year


View Attachment


Problem with getting old is that I'd forgotten I formatted the damn document for them! 

Where was this published?

[specflue]

May 10, 2019 22:05:53 GMT daveuk1 said:

The AEBBA were presented with the agreed rules for adoption back in 2013.

I posted the rules on here back in 2014 and we did an amendment in 2017 when we adopted the baulk lines which was also posted on here and AEBBA advised.

Copies of the rules are always available at our open.

Well said Dave. No more excuses the AEBBA should just honour their own commitments.

May 10, 2019 21:26:16 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Just found this from last year subsequent to the competition so may well be up to date as I do not remember any changes this year


View Attachment


Problem with getting old is that I'd forgotten I formatted the damn document for them! 

From these rules it appears we have the flexibility to use pegs instead of mushrooms?

And indeed they can be placed any distance from the holes??

I can see how adhering rigidly to these will not raise questions!

It also seems that we may not have done so at last year’s AEBBA event - does that mean it is rendered invalid?

[specflue]

May 10, 2019 23:14:14 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

May 10, 2019 21:17:21 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Cannot remember, I was too busy setting up tables.


www.sdbbl.co.uk/page/rules.html

Steve says the rules are basically the Sudbury League rules with a couple of amendments in such as the baulk line being used and balls must be stationary/fully dropped into a pocket before the next shot can commence.

Chris Cass has been asked to supply a copy in the morning

When speaking to some players from this year’s EA Open they advised that the ‘ball must be stationary/fully dropped...’ was not in use and they were allowed to play whilst balls were in motion. Sounds like not everyone got the memo.

Thanks for making us aware of this. We will try and ensure the rules are applied correctly by all players in coming years. We don’t want to create a situation where there are inconsistency’s which could cost a player a game.

May 10, 2019 21:26:16 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Just found this from last year subsequent to the competition so may well be up to date as I do not remember any changes this year


View Attachment


Problem with getting old is that I'd forgotten I formatted the damn document for them! 

Can you confirm - given these rules were created in April 2018 - these were the definitive version published for the 2019 EA Open?

Chris - to be clear (as you may be the only person who will remember)

In 2013 the AEBBA voted to apply rules to any 4-pin competition reactively as dictated by the organisers of the EA Open? Was any provision discussed about subsequent updates and when the AEBBA could expect to be issued with changes such as the 2018 revision?

May 9, 2019 13:34:11 GMT Chris_Sav said:

I sincerely applaud those who make the effort to govern and enhance our game, but expect them not to exceed the authority with which they have been invested.


Why suggest cancelling this year’s tournament? just play it to the rules that were used last year and that still remain in force. 

Given how diligently the constitution has been constructed you will know all too well that the committee and any officers have no authority whatsoever. I absolutely reject the accusation - which to me is both offensive and utterly unacceptable - that I have sought to exceed the remit of the Secretary role. In fact I have sought always to be collaborative. I sincerely hope the next secretary and committee will be granted the necessary authority to act in the best interests of the game.

With regard to the last point you made which I copied above - last year's event was not in line with the EA Open Rules at the time - which sadly means we were in breach of rule 20. Not sure where we go with that one.

May 10, 2019 23:18:37 GMT specflue said:

May 10, 2019 22:05:53 GMT daveuk1 said:

The AEBBA were presented with the agreed rules for adoption back in 2013.

I posted the rules on here back in 2014 and we did an amendment in 2017 when we adopted the baulk lines which was also posted on here and AEBBA advised.

Copies of the rules are always available at our open.

Well said Dave. No more excuses the AEBBA should just honour their own commitments.

I'll ask again - where were the 2019 rules published ahead of the event?

Surely, if it is unreasonable to present rules to players a week to ten days prior to any event, it is not all that reasonable that they can only access them when they arrive at the venue.


If it is considered by the committee the case that AEBBA Rule 20 takes precedence - then, following an urgent committee meeting, I will confirm any alterations to what has been published earlier in this thread. Where the rules do not provide an appropriate level of detail (such as positioning of pegs/mushrooms) we will be unwilling to risk being accused of bias and so will need to consider an appropriate way forward.

[daveuk1]

Any updates to rules have always been posted on here and AEBBA advised, but until AEBBA realised how popular four pin was and jumped on the bandwagon they were never interested and the only real changes have been us adopting the baulk lines, and clarifying that it is a foul shot that loses the current break if a player plays a shot while any other ball is still in motion on the playing surface

There is indeed no need to use mushrooms but they are used in the EA open to keep to the four pin tradition. You could use lumps of cheese if you wanted as I seem to remember at least one 3 pin player did while practicing

If last years AEBBA 4 pin tournament is invalid please let me know so I can pass on my bank details for the refund and compensation for the money spent on accommodation

May 11, 2019 0:05:27 GMT daveuk1 said:

Any updates to rules have always been posted on here and AEBBA advised, but until AEBBA realised how popular four pin was and jumped on the bandwagon they were never interested and the only real changes have been us adopting the baulk lines, and clarifying that it is a foul shot that loses the current break if a player plays a shot while any other ball is still in motion on the playing surface

There is indeed no need to use mushrooms but they are used in the EA open to keep to the four pin tradition. You could use lumps of cheese if you wanted as I seem to remember at least one 3 pin player did while practicing

If last years AEBBA 4 pin tournament is invalid please let me know so I can pass on my bank details for the refund and compensation for the money spent on accommodation

Helpful Dave - thanks as that is exactly what I need and have been seeking. Could you show me the post on here where the 2018 revision was advised?

Glad you are happy with either pegs, mushrooms or anything else of similar dimensions.

I didn't say last year's was invalid - you and Chris have by stating that anything in variance to the EA Open is invalid.

You'll be aware that no Bar Billiards event either national or regional - perhaps with the exception of the EA Open, I'm not sure about that - offers indemnities. We do not have the necessary insurance to cover this. If you are determined to make a claim against the expenses you incurred for entering the event in 2018 then, sadly, we do not currently have a process to accommodate that - but feel free to put in a proposal at the next AGM.

[daveuk1]

Do counties publish rules before their opens? The rules for four pin have been available for people to read on this site for many years and I have always answered any questions, no their is no mention of the distance the mushrooms/pegs/lumps of cheese are positioned away from the edge of the holes, we play for fun and don't want reams and reams of paperwork to cover every possibility. We don't specify the size of the table, the height of the playing surface so I guess you dont even need to screw the legs in the table if you don't want to.

I am happy to say I have received numerous PMs and text messages over the last couple of days from certain 3 pin players congratulating Suffolk on our efforts to keep 4 pin real. How would three pin players feel if the rules they have used for years were suddenly rewritten to benefit 4 pin players at the expense of the authenticity of their game

[daveuk1]

If you cant offer a refund then I'll be happy to settle for a pint

[stevehale]

Sitting in my cab, wondering what everyone would be doing this evening if I hadn’t asked for clarity on the rules.

One page with the correct reply and everyone could’ve been tucked up in bed watching Indoor League on You Tube.

Roll on next Saturday

[daveuk1]

Look at Specflue 4 pin open 2018, for some reason I can not link to it
Post by daveuk1 on Apr 12, 2017 at 7:37pm
Just to let you know at a meeting of the Suffolk Bar Billiards Association last night it was decided:-

The date of next years open will be Saturday 24th March, venue to be confirmed but hopefully the Masonic Hall

Our rules for our open will be amended with the following change. We will use the baulk lines rather than the end of the cloth. All other rules remain unchanged although we will rewrite part of them to make it clear that it is a foul shot and the player loses their break if they play the cue ball when any other ball is still in motion on the playing surface ie rolling around a hole.

There was also talk and enthusiasm for the suggestion of running a 4x4 team tournament later in the year. Inviting teams of four players to enter a four pin competition. Each match being made up of four single games and two doubles. These games would be played on narrow tables, depending on the interest this would probably have to take place over a weekend and any thought or suggestions will be gratefully appreciated.

I hope that what ever happens in the future that people will continue to support and enjoy our four pin competitions here in Suffolk

Dave

May 11, 2019 0:22:20 GMT daveuk1 said:

Do counties publish rules before their opens? The rules for four pin have been available for people to read on this site for many years and I have always answered any questions, no their is no mention of the distance the mushrooms/pegs/lumps of cheese are positioned away from the edge of the holes, we play for fun and don't want reams and reams of paperwork to cover every possibility. We don't specify the size of the table, the height of the playing surface so I guess you dont even need to screw the legs in the table if you don't want to.

I am happy to say I have received numerous PMs and text messages over the last couple of days from certain 3 pin players congratulating Suffolk on our efforts to keep 4 pin real. How would three pin players feel if the rules they have used for years were suddenly rewritten to benefit 4 pin players at the expense of the authenticity of their game

I'm delighted to hear that you have extensive support for your views - but let us not compare PMs! It's vulgar and mine will always be bigger!

In an overdue attempt to not be accused of browbeating or exceeding the authority of my role - let us collaborate.

How would you proceed - given your diligent respect for AEBBA Rule 20 and that we must adhere to the EA Open Rules - how far should the 'obstacles' be from the holes? What if we get it wrong? Will you submit further claims?

And what about last year where we used 7 white balls????

[daveuk1]

Further claims will come in the form of requests for more beer.
There has to be a sensible compromise available somewhere. There is always room for minor tweaks

In my mind, obstacles (cubes of cheese should only be used if spiked by a cocktail stick and accompanied by a lump of pineapple on top) should be placed between 4 and 6mm back from the edge of the hole.

I cant speak for others but personally I have always agreed with the break back in single leg games and would have no objections if that was introduced.

May 11, 2019 0:45:45 GMT daveuk1 said:

Further claims will come in the form of requests for more beer.
There has to be a sensible compromise available somewhere. There is always room for minor tweaks

In my mind, obstacles (cubes of cheese should only be used if spiked by a cocktail stick and accompanied by a lump of pineapple on top) should be placed between 4 and 6mm back from the edge of the hole.

I cant speak for others but personally I have always agreed with the break back in single leg games and would have no objections if that was introduced.

Sadly we cannot introduce new rules or tweaks if you, your army of PM supporters and Chris are to be satisfied that we are compliant. We must go with the 'letter of the rules'. Tricky, I know.

[daveuk1]

6 or 7 white balls makes no difference, the more balls on the table the more chance of potting one, I think 7 whites were used last year purely becuse there were fears if you removed a single white ball from the table it may not be returned to the correct set of balls at the end of the day.

Thinking of obstacle position, if pegs are used its not a problem but the bases of mushrooms are slightly larger and this can be abused by placing a mushroom further back from the hole as the base will still cover the spot, in the past we have used larger spots for the obstacle positions and of course on narrow tables which we own the positions are marked on the cloth in pen somthere can be no argument

May 11, 2019 0:53:51 GMT daveuk1 said:

6 or 7 white balls makes no difference, the more balls on the table the more chance of potting one, I think 7 whites were used last year purely becuse there were fears if you removed a single white ball from the table it may not be returned to the correct set of balls at the end of the day.

Thinking of obstacle position, if pegs are used its not a problem but the bases of mushrooms are slightly larger and this can be abused by placing a mushroom further back from the hole as the base will still cover the spot, in the past we have used larger spots for the obstacle positions and of course on narrow tables which we own the positions are marked on the cloth in pen somthere can be no argument

So you agree we were non-compliant last year? Hence your claim for a comprehensive refund, I guess. Maybe you could get it from Sav's winnings??? Or better still, go with the AGM option. You may need to attend though to get your payment if the proposal gets through!

As for mushrooms, pegs, cheese balls or whatever - give a measurement that you and your army would be satisfied with. I will raise it with the AEBBA committee this weekend. We will then discuss whether by changing the rules we are then guilty of the accusations that you and Chris have levied.

[daveuk1]

May 11, 2019 0:45:45 GMT daveuk1 said:

In my mind, obstacles (cubes of cheese should only be used if spiked by a cocktail stick and accompanied by a lump of pineapple on top) should be placed between 4 and 6mm back from the edge of the hole.

[daveuk1]

So the centre of the spot should be half the diameter of the obstacle plus 4-6mm

[gandalf the untidy]

Dear me! i will bring some lego with me and hand it round so you can all build a bridge and get over it

[barbelman]

OK - this all getting a bit silly now.  Everyone is going round in circles.....

Do what I do - turn up - read the rules - forget them as soon as I start playing.....then lose.

[specflue]

What I think is really sad about this whole debate is it’s missing the point.

Lorin you keep asking us to demonstrate where we posted our 4 pin open rules, you keep raising points for clarity, that’s deflection. Trying to shift the argument. We are happy to discuss any issues through dialogue, you could attend one of our committee meetings and raise any issues and we would welcome the opportunity to consider your points. This does not guarantee we would adopt them for the reasons Dave has previously stated.

AEBBA has a process I understand it’s written into the constitution, the rules can only be amended at an AGM or EGM.

Personally I don’t care what rules the AEBBA tournaments are played to, provided the decisions are presented and made within the process laid out in the constitution. Failure to do this undermines all winners of the event because they win something which is invalid. It also undermines the whole game or Bar Billiards which I am doing my best to keep going in Suffolk.

Lorin can you show us the minutes of the AGM or EGM where these rule changes were proposed, voted on and adopted.

[specflue]

May 11, 2019 1:00:31 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

May 11, 2019 0:53:51 GMT daveuk1 said:

6 or 7 white balls makes no difference, the more balls on the table the more chance of potting one, I think 7 whites were used last year purely becuse there were fears if you removed a single white ball from the table it may not be returned to the correct set of balls at the end of the day.

Thinking of obstacle position, if pegs are used its not a problem but the bases of mushrooms are slightly larger and this can be abused by placing a mushroom further back from the hole as the base will still cover the spot, in the past we have used larger spots for the obstacle positions and of course on narrow tables which we own the positions are marked on the cloth in pen somthere can be no argument

So you agree we were non-compliant last year? Hence your claim for a comprehensive refund, I guess. Maybe you could get it from Sav's winnings??? Or better still, go with the AGM option. You may need to attend though to get your payment if the proposal gets through!

As for mushrooms, pegs, cheese balls or whatever - give a measurement that you and your army would be satisfied with. I will raise it with the AEBBA committee this weekend. We will then discuss whether by changing the rules we are then guilty of the accusations that you and Chris have levied.

I think Dave is seeking a refund for accommodation for this year’s event as we entered assuming the rules had not changed since last year. We have been informed of significant changes, so much so that we no longer feel it’s a 4 pin game. We therefore feel mislead into applying for take part.

I will gladly come and take part knowing I haven’t got a hope in hell of beating anyone in my group under these rules and will have to go home early.

[JB]

Is it possible these posts can be copied and pasted in to an email and the few people involved can then email each other.

Every time there’s a 4 pin competition it’s the same, pages and pages of waffle going round and round in circles.

It’s an important time for a lot of leagues/counties with finals nights/masters comps etc and the posts just get lost.

We’re supposed to be promoting bar billiards and seeing this sort of thing going on certainly doesn’t. Posts like these made my mind up to not enter any 4 pin comps.
People have told me they don’t use proboards anymore because of this sort of thing going on and the criticism of 3 pin alienates people.

Its always the same few people so all I ask is that you make an email group up or arrange a meeting and discuss this face to face over a beer or two

[Chris_Sav]

May 10, 2019 23:16:46 GMT @reformedcharacter said:

May 10, 2019 21:26:16 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Just found this from last year subsequent to the competition so may well be up to date as I do not remember any changes this year

Problem with getting old is that I'd forgotten I formatted the damn document for them! 

Where was this published?

Under the AEBBA Current rules section of this forum in April 2018

barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/19421/current-aebba-rules

[triplex]

FFS - I promised myself i would keep quiet !!! But now getting quite pi%%ed off !!

I remember a few years back when Northants announced that they were bringing back their Open, and it was welcomed by all. We as a committee decided to try and make a weekend of it by organising something on the Saturday, we came up with a few ideas and we decided on four pin. The reason behind this was The Northants Open is for the best in the Country to battle it out to be the winner, whereas the 4 pin would help our local players and others to stand a chance in winning something but most of all making it a fun and enjoyable weekend for all. With all the feedback we received after the weekend we feel that we achieved exactly that.

Moving forward we had a discussion with the AEBBA with regards to our 4 pin event in making it a national AEBBA tournament, we agreed and the 2nd year it was announced it as the AEBBA 4 Pin. To be honest we did not feel much benefit from having the AEBBA involved and therefore we had a discussion if to go back to how it was or if we could come up with something which benefited Northants and AEBBA and obviously a better day for everyone. After a few discussions The AEBBA showed us how it would help and benifit us (I'm not just meaning money)from having their backing. Last year really showed us that it was the correct decision to stay with them.

People keep moaning about rules changes, now I would like to put things straight here, stop having a go at The AEBBA as it was ME who requested some changes as players over the last 2 years have asked for this for the reason of making the game better (Not permanent changes to all 4 Pin, just ours) what would be the point of having the exact rules to the EA Open as all AEBBA events are not duplicates of others. When I had a chat with AEBBA they were very much for changes if thats what players were after and so they looked and made the changes. Which to me is them helping us move forward and changing things for the better. So please any more moaning at rules direct them at me as I am the culprit !!!

It was brought to my attention that after the first year it upset a few people from Sudbury that we had the AEBBA 4 Pin tournament and it should of been them, and that was the last thing that we wanted so I advised them that last year why not apply for it and we wouldn't but was told they didn't want it.

With all of this going on I have heard that there is a chance that The AEBBA could be pulling out of this years 4 pin, which is terrible news as people do not realise what goes on behind the scene in support and time in helping arranging these weekends.

I'll be honest at this moment i am unable to play much billiards or attend all Opens because of the complications I've had with my new knee replacement, I may be sad but its quite disappointing as i really do enjoy playing our game and its not just that, I feel its also a great social meeting at these events as during my years I've made a lot of friends and enjoy the chat and banter that we all have.

At this moment the time and commitment we have put in to try and make this weekend the best we can I'm actually feeling why should i bother next year if this is what we got to look forward every year, personally I think we should congratulate The AEBBA in moving things forward and trying to change things for the better not try and block them at every opportunity because of tiny little rules. Now i'm not really sure if any rules have been broken or not, but hey surely if its for the better, then you can have my vote all day long.

I just look forward in meeting every one next weekend, play some Billiards, have fun, chat with everyone and drink some cider, now surely that's what these days should be about.

[milhouse]

If the AEBBA pull out of this tournament (and i can understand why) can you let us know asap as i think the ranking committee would then need to have a meeting to see if this tournament would still warrant ranking points. This could have an affect on numbers.....

[taffy]

take a chill bean triplex. we're having a discussion so avoid inflammatory openers and lots of exclamation marks. it's a chat alright! sorry - alright.

we'll play these new rules next saturday, then discuss them, change them a bit etc and it'll be fine. the 'chat' is the bad side, the good side is that you have made some great moves for the sake of the game and will i hope be applauded for them when the time comes.

but it proves a coming of age for AEBBA and after this, say they are your rules and don't claim them to be anyone else's just AEBBA's. We all know that sudbury is the home of 4-pin and has given us a platform. here at the 'Newmarket & Cambridge' we just copied Sudbury's rules. changed one. simple!

as for jeremy having no chance, Jeremy, you'll have a better chance, not a poorer chance. I've seen NS and PO try and clear up a mess in 4-pin and it isn't easy. to do the 50/50 or ANY break shot, first you have to clear the table..... as any 4-pinner knows, often, the only break shot is the one that starts the game and I've never had any trouble with that! (oops i mean any trouble with that.)

as long as they are allowed to change rules for a one off competition under sub clauses then that's that. in motorcycling they are often called, 'the day rules' and are particular to that quirky track or pit or place.

let's just all stand in a circle and give the guy on the left his entrance fee back and be happy

taffy