AEBBA 4-pin Open Championships 2019

Hi All,

I'm delighted to inform you that entries are now being taken for this competition which will once more be hosted by Northants Bar Billiards.

The event takes place at the ever popular Cock Hotel on the 18th May.

As requested by a number of you last year we have increased the cap on entry numbers and, thanks to the organisers, have not compromised the number of games played by each entrant - in fact, you get even more! Added to the fact that the entry fee has been retained as 2018 prices it represents arguably the best value event of the whole year - you should not miss it!!

Full details can be found here:

aebba.co.uk/aebba-4-pin-open

We look forward to seeing you there!

Best wishes,

Lorin

[barbelman]

Please use the thread "2019 ramblings on 4 pin rules" for anything other than the above tournament.

Tony

[daveuk1]

4 from Suffolk so far that I know about

[triplex]

That’s great Dave, who’s the 4th as I’ve just got you, Jeremy and Steve so far.

[daveuk1]

Jeff Bridges has also entered and he was going to ask the others from his gang

[triplex]

That’s fantastic mate, is he doing both like you lot as well?

[daveuk1]

Ermmm??
I know it was talked about last night but I honestly can't remember what he said

[triplex]

Entry List Updated

aebba.co.uk/aebba-4-pin-open

[triplex]

Don’t wait to long as only 9 places left......


aebba.co.uk/aebba-4-pin-open

[triplex]

List updated

Be quick as only 5 places left now

Either contacts me or click on the link below to enter.

aebba.co.uk/aebba-4-pin-open

[taffy]

if any places become available please let me know? a local lad here wants to enter.

Taffy

Hi All,

The draw for this event has now taken place and, in the absence of a website, is shown below. Please note that the event consists of a group stage with eight groups consisting of 6 players competing in a 'round robin' league of single leg matches. As a reminder after all group matches have been completed, players ranked 1 & 2 in the group shall be automatically entered into the last 16 Knockout stages of the main event.

Players ranked 3rd and lower in each group shall be automatically entered into the last 32 Knockout stages of the Plate tournament.


The groups are as follows:

Group 1		Group 2		Group 3		Group 4
Pauline Withey		Stephen Coleman		Sid Ponting		Keith Sheard
Bob Hall		Mark Trafford		Jason Neal		Martin Cole
Tony Willis		Keith Thomson		Joe Elleson		Chris Saville
Andy Skinner		Jeremy Fry		Andy Chambers		Lewis Stratford
Gary Tipping		David Lloyd		Lorin Clough		Pete Soanes
Matt Knight		Trish Coates		John Tyson		Ben Dobson
Group 5		Group 6		Group 7		Group 8
Damian Coates		Phil Griffin		Stevie Anscombe		Philip Osborne
Nigel Senior		Tony Jenner		Jim Smith		James Whittle
Michelle Coleman		Rob Scarrott		Ian Moss		Colin Southouse
Chas Peel		Jon Bamsey		Steve Hale		Jim Thomson
Andy Jarvie		David Lillie		Mary Leeming		Joe Oakley
Jim Corrigan		Dunc Harris		Curt Driver		Jeff Bridges

[stevehale]

Could someone post or e-mail a full set of match rules for this event for us Suffolkians to peruse before we head up?

[daveuk1]

Steve. aebba rules state rules for four pin are those used in the EA open. There was talk about aebba having an emergency meeting as they can only change their rules at the agm or at an emergency meeting but as far as I know that never happened

[stevehale]

That's why I was asking, for clarity. I don't want to be mid game and get thrown a curve ball.

[taffy]

if you get thrown a curved ball the rules have definately been tampered with!

May 7, 2019 20:10:55 GMT taffy said:

if you get thrown a curved ball the rules have definately been tampered with!

.....or the ball set ! LOL

[curtd]

For the few that are concerned about any rule changes

I can confirm that a meeting did take place where the 4-pin rules were discussed. There are certainly no curve balls but there have been a couple of subtle changes. I'm sure the set of rules will be published at some point before the competition ?

Before the few get over excited about the subtle changes they will be reading. Can I just say that these changes made by the committee are for the AEBBA 4 pin comp ONLY and the committee are not trying to force/bully/ encourage/suggest that the East Anglian rules are changed as well. That is a county comp and they should play with whatever rules they want, IMHO, and people will decide with their feet if they want to play. With the numbers playing over the last couple of years I don't see that as a problem for the East Anglian Open at all.

So please please please ......... when the set of rules are published can we just accept that they are for the AEBBA only and we just get on and have a great day of billiards and not waste time and energy over the coming weeks discussing rules.
IMHO the time to discuss if the rules were ok or not would be after the comp once people have actually played using the AEBBA rules.

Thanks

Curt

Apologies for the delay in posting the rules - will do so today but been stuck on calls for hours.

[bigtj]

May 8, 2019 9:42:41 GMT curtd said:

For the few that are concerned about any rule changes

I can confirm that a meeting did take place where the 4-pin rules were discussed. There are certainly no curve balls but there have been a couple of subtle changes. I'm sure the set of rules will be published at some point before the competition ?

Before the few get over excited about the subtle changes they will be reading. Can I just say that these changes made by the committee are for the AEBBA 4 pin comp ONLY and the committee are not trying to force/bully/ encourage/suggest that the East Anglian rules are changed as well. That is a county comp and they should play with whatever rules they want, IMHO, and people will decide with their feet if they want to play. With the numbers playing over the last couple of years I don't see that as a problem for the East Anglian Open at all.

So please please please ......... when the set of rules are published can we just accept that they are for the AEBBA only and we just get on and have a great day of billiards and not waste time and energy over the coming weeks discussing rules.
IMHO the time to discuss if the rules were ok or not would be after the comp once people have actually played using the AEBBA rules.

Thanks

Curt

Here here Curt it is not 3 pin v 4 pin they are both different games and both merit respect ( whichever rules are adopted ), I personally play both and enjoy both especially when we play on the narrow tables at Sudbury, where you can stand and watch the skill of those who normally play 4 pin in conjuring up splendid shots into the high scoring holes from angles a lot of us would not even see.

Please can everyone respect those who play whatever game it is, bar billiards is hard enough to promote and keep going without squabbling.

TJ

[stevehale]

Thanks for the update Curt. Wasn’t attempting to stir up anything, just trying to make sure there are no issues arising mid game which happened to me last year in the group stages because there were differences to the rules last year that not everyone was aware of.
Looking forward to the weekend as usual although I can’t now make the Sunday as I have an airport run to do sunday afternoon, certainly looking forward to doing battle with your good self again.
Whatever the rules are, we all have to adhere to them so itMs the same for everyone. Let’s just have fun and drink lots of beer

[daveuk1]

Steve me thinks it's simples, the more we drink the more the rules change to our disadvantage, nowt to do with the quantity of ale supped. I've also noticed as the day goes on the TABLES get more p!ssed

Hi there,

We are very much looking forward to welcoming players again to Northampton for this year's AEBBA 4-Pin Open Championships.

In this post I have summarised the event format to add to the group information listed above. I have also set out the competition rules being used for this event.

First, I would like to set out clearly the justification for the application of rules specific to this event and to correct a common misunderstanding regarding interpretation of the current AEBBA Rules & Constitution. I would then hope that this matter will be settled for this particular event and the confusion can stop.

During the AEBBA Pairs Tournament in Bournemouth an AEBBA Committee Meeting was held with the vast majority of committee members able to attend. The sole item for discussion was to agree a definitive approach for the AEBBA 4-Pin Open Championships.

It is/was my contention that there had been a fundamental misinterpretation of Rule 61 - which was often being used to justify strict adherence to EA Open Rules. It is/was my view that this rule in fact applies to the AEBBA Alternate Rules competition - which has flexibility to be run in a variety of formats. To be clear - the format selected for the AEBBA Alternate Rules event in recent years has been the 'triangle' format. It shall take place in this form again on 16th June 2019 - we'd love to see as many of you there as possible for this great event!

Whilst it is possible that the Alternate Rules may be run as a 4-Pin event in future (subject to demand), it is not planned for this year.

There has been no such ruleset for the new AEBBA 4-Pin Open Championships which was adopted from Northants Bar Billiards in 2018 - this gives us the freedom to create a definitive approach given the unique nature of the event.

The committee unanimously agreed with the contention above and those who attended the AGM where this addition was made to Rule 61 further expressed the view that this was devised at a time where there was no plan for a dedicated 4-Pin event such as we have now. We unanimously agreed the following set of rules which shall be applicable for this year's AEBBA 4-Pin Open Championships and henceforth.

Event Format for 2019

Players shall compete in a 'round robin' league of matches consisting of a single leg with equal breaks. Winners shall be awarded 1 point for a leg win and ranked accordingly. In the event of a tied game ½ point per player shall be awarded.
After all group matches have been completed, players ranked 1 & 2 in the group shall be automatically entered into the last 16 Knockout stages of the event.

In the round of 16 (only), those who finished first in their group shall be drawn against a player who finished second in another group as follows:

1st in Group 1 shall play 2nd in Group 5
1st in Group 2 shall play 2nd in Group 6
1st in Group 3 shall play 2nd in Group 7
1st in Group 4 shall play 2nd in Group 8
1st in Group 5 shall play 2nd in Group 1
1st in Group 6 shall play 2nd in Group 2
1st in Group 7 shall play 2nd in Group 3
1st in Group 8 shall play 2nd in Group 4

From this point the draw is fixed and the winner of last 16 match 1 shall meet the winner of last 16 match 2 and so on.

Players ranked 3rd and lower in each group shall be automatically entered into the last 32 Knockout stages of the Plate tournament.


Event Schedule

Time	Series	Stage	Match
10am - 10:15am		Player Registrations
10:15	Series A	Group stage	Group Player 2 vs Group Player 1
10:40	Series B	Group stage	Group Player 3 vs Group Player 6
11:05	Series C	Group stage	Group Player 4 vs Group Player 5
11:30	Series D	Group stage	Group Player 6 vs Group Player 1
11:55	Series E	Group stage	Group Player 2 vs Group Player 5
12:20	Series F	Group stage	Group Player 3 vs Group Player 4
12:45	Series G	Group stage	Group Player 1 vs Group Player 5
13:10	Series H	Group stage	Group Player 6 vs Group Player 4
13:35	Series I	Group stage	Group Player 2 vs Group Player 3
14:00	Series J	Group stage	Group Player 4 vs Group Player 1
14:25	Series K	Group stage	Group Player 5 vs Group Player 3
14:50	Series L	Group stage	Group Player 6 vs Group Player 2
15:15	Series M	Group stage	Group Player 5 vs Group Player 6
15:40	Series N	Group stage	Group Player 1 vs Group Player 3
16:05	Series O	Group stage	Group Player 4 vs Group Player 2
16:30 - 16:45		Draw for KO stages
16:45	Series P	Plate Last 32	Plate Last 32 matches (single leg)
17:10	Series Q	Plate Last 32	Plate Last 32 matches (single leg)
17:35	Series R	Main Competition	Last 16 Knockout (double legs)
18:15	Series S	Plate Last 16	Plate Last 16 matches (single leg)
18:40	Series T	Main & Plate	Quarter Finals (double legs)
19:25	Series U	Main & Plate	Semi Finals (double legs)
20:15	Series V	Main & Plate	Plate Final & Championship Final (double legs)
21:00		Presentations
21:15		Event close

Event Rules


Play shall take place on the AEBBA's competition tables but set up for 4-Pin Bar Billiards including pin and spot positions as well as pocket values and the use of mushrooms.

1. In all single leg matches the balls will be returned to the break position after the first (named) player finishes their first break. In a two legged match the toss of a coin will decide who goes first in 1st leg and 2nd

2. Four mushrooms (not pegs) should be placed in front of the four high scoring holes except for the last ball shot. There must be 7 White balls and 1 red ball in the tray after the timer jack is pulled. To start the game, place the red ball on the spot above the 'D' ('break spot') and play a white ball from the centre of the 'D'. This is called the break shot. The centre of the 'D' should be marked with a spot. Thereafter, with the exception of further break shots, and the last ball, either coloured ball may be played from any position within the confines of the 'D'. All strokes throughout the game must be played from the 'D'.


3. The player must not play the cue ball directly into a hole. The cue ball must first strike another ball to become a scoring shot. In normal play players can choose to use any ball from the tray.

4. When the red ball is potted, the score of that ball is doubled. When two balls are potted from the break shot position on three consecutive occasions into any pockets the scorer will call “One Up” if both balls are then potted into any holes a foul is called and that break score is lost.

5. When all balls are in play, and none left in the tray, the ball nearest to the baulk line is returned and played from the 'D' to continue the game. If two or more balls are equidistant from the baulk line the ball nearest to the centre should be returned to continue play as it is "nearest to the 'D'".

6. When no balls are left in play, the red and white balls are positioned as for the start of the game.

7. When a ball returns to cut the baulk line (not the edge of the baize), that ball is removed to the tray.

8. If a mushroom is knocked over by a ball and cannot be replaced because of obstruction by a ball, that ball shall be removed to the tray. The mushroom must be replaced to its correct position immediately.

9. If a mushroom is knocked from its correct position without falling over, if possible it shall be immediately replaced on its spot, if a ball is obstructing the spot the mushroom will remain in its position until such time as that ball is moved from the spot then the mushroom should be immediately replaced correctly. If a break ends the mushroom will be re spotted and the ball returned to the tray.

10. If a ball and mushroom are wedged in a hole together, the mushroom is to be removed first and the ball allowed to drop down the hole and not returned to the tray even after the gate has dropped.

11. Each player continues until a non-scoring shot is played.

12. Once a player leaves the table their break is deemed over, should a ball fall down a hole after they have left the table this will not count towards their break or their opponents break unless their opponent has first struck the cue ball whether or not it strikes another ball.

13. Scores shall have the same value before and after the gate has dropped. The red ball will continue to score double.


14. The last ball on the table shall be played from the centre of the 'D' and must be played into either the 100 or 200 hole but must first hit one side cushion only. The mushroom in front of the 100 hole will be removed for this shot.


Foul Shots

1. The player loses his/her entire score if :-
a. The last ball is holed without striking the side cushion.
b. The player causes the mushroom covering the 200 hole to be knocked over - applies to last ball shot only.

2. The player loses the score of that break if :-
a. The cue ball fails to strike another ball.
b. Any ball returns to cut the baulk line (not the edge of the baize) - the 'D' counts as baulk.
c. If two balls are sunk from the break shot into any holes more than 3 times in succession.
d. The player causes any mushroom to be knocked over.
e. The player fails to keep 1 ball up when instructed by the scorer
f. Any ball leaves the table, or strikes the backboard, even if that ball returns to the normal play area.
g. Any ball is played other than from the 'D'.
h. The player causes any ball to move other than a shot played correctly from the 'D'.
i. If a break shot or final ball is not played from the centre of the 'D'.

3. If a combination of foul shots occur, then, regardless of sequence of events, the first penalty counts only.


Table Rules

The table shall be set out as follows:

• Mushrooms shall be placed (the baulk line side) to cover the 200 hole, the 100 hole, and the two 50 holes and shall be set 4mm from the edge of the hole
• The spot for the red ball for the break shall be exactly halfway between the rim of the 200 hole closest to the baulk line, and the back edge of the “D” +/- 5mm
• The number of balls shall be seven white and one red.
• The lower scoring holes should be marked with the 30 and 10 holes reversed in relation to the current AEBBA 3 pin rules


Once again, we are thrilled that we have been able to increase participation for this event by 20% on last year and we're delighted to be able to offer so much value and playing time for your entry fee. It's the players that make this fantastic event what it is, along with our wonderful sponsors, organisers and hosts and we cannot wait to see you in a few days time.

Best wishes,

Lorin

[daveuk1]

Sorry, sounds like 3 pin rules but with four mushrooms
Rule 1 b and 2 d are madness and takes away the risk of going for the 200 during the game.
What is the point of rule 3 ?

May 8, 2019 22:19:55 GMT daveuk1 said:

Sorry, sounds like 3 pin rules but with four mushrooms
Rule 1 b and 2 d are madness and takes away the risk of going for the 200 during the game.
What is the point of rule 3 ?

I'm sorry you are disappointed, Dave. I hope you will still play in the event.

The point of Rule 3 is to underline that players may use any ball and not have to wait to use the red ball - is that not clear? I can alter the wording to make sure that everyone understands if you think it would be helpful.

[curtd]

May 8, 2019 22:19:55 GMT daveuk1 said:

Sorry, sounds like 3 pin rules but with four mushrooms
Rule 1 b and 2 d are madness and takes away the risk of going for the 200 during the game.
What is the point of rule 3 ?

Dave
I don’t think you have understood 1b and 2d and you should read them again. As far as I can remember this is no different to your rules. Please read again ?
It doesn’t stop you going for 200 during the game as total loss of points for knocking black peg down only occurs on last ball shot as stated.

[daveuk1]

Sorry Curt, the way I read it is that the black (200 mushroom) only counts as a black for the last shot, meaning no risk going for a 200 shot during the rest of the game, so the game wont favour the brave.

Lorin I apologise I meant to say what is the point of the foul shots rule 3 ?

[gandalf the untidy]

May 8, 2019 22:47:12 GMT curtd said:

May 8, 2019 22:19:55 GMT daveuk1 said:

Sorry, sounds like 3 pin rules but with four mushrooms
Rule 1 b and 2 d are madness and takes away the risk of going for the 200 during the game.
What is the point of rule 3 ?

Dave
I don’t think you have understood 1b and 2d and you should read them again. As far as I can remember this is no different to your rules. Please read again ?
It doesn’t stop you going for 200 during the game as total loss of points for knocking black peg down only occurs on last ball shot as stated.

SoundS like a great idea to me, you can target the 200 hole all the game with only a loss of break penalty should suit Dave UK's game to a "T" well done AEBBA full marks

May 9, 2019 4:49:48 GMT daveuk1 said:

Sorry Curt, the way I read it is that the black (200 mushroom) only counts as a black for the last shot, meaning no risk going for a 200 shot during the rest of the game, so the game wont favour the brave.

Lorin I apologise I meant to say what is the point of the foul shots rule 3 ?

Ah - I see.

The point of that rule is to clarify that the first foul incurred in any shot is what shall be considered and not, as is played in some areas, the most severe foul.

[daveuk1]

But the way I read your rules is the only time you can play a foul shot and lose your entire score is on the "last ball shot" any other time any foul of any sorts only loses your break.

Sorry I have been playing 4 pin for the best part of half a century and the Sudbury league has been going for a lot longer, no offence meant but most of you wouldn't even consider playing 4 pin until a few years ago and now it seems you want to rewrite the rules to fall in line with 3 pin rules. Aebba are susposed to be the governing body of bar billiards although they have previously said they won't interfere with the four pin game but now they have taken it opon themselves to rewrite the rules to suit 3 pin.
My opinion only but why take a set of rules that have evolved over a great many years and totally change the basics