Missing Rule - Alternate Rules

[Chris_Sav]

I have asked Dave Alder to hunt out what he can

Green field here!!!

1) All shots to be played off the spot
Position of the lead ball in the triangle is where???
2) The break position is white ball on the white balll spot and the triangle place with the lead ball XXXX inches from the centre of the 100 hole.
3)After the bar has dropped and a player gets back to break, the triangle is to be formed from the front and left (or right??) of each row in turn.

Black peg counts as a white apart from the last ball shot????

Enlighten me

Sav.

[NigelS]

Hi Sav

Maybe need to add a rule to say how the triangle should be formed if there are less than 6 balls remaining when someone clears all the balls and the bar has dropped. However not sure whether you could call that clarifying a rule or forming a new one there is probably no rule for this.

[Chris_Sav]

nigels said:

Hi Sav

Maybe need to add a rule to say how the triangle should be formed if there are less than 6 balls remaining when someone clears all the balls and the bar has dropped. However not sure whether you could call that clarifying a rule or forming a new one there is probably no rule for this.

That's what 3) does Nige.

[NigelS]

Oh yeah, missed that one Sav!

[Chris_Sav]

Well it's interesting that we've played this competition for a number of years and yet no one knows where the triangle goes!!

I'd heard comments that it seems to vary every year ;D

Sav

Correct me if I'm wrong, but - Sav - you invented this variation of the game.
I would think, therefore, that you could stick the triangle where you 'kin well like. ;D ;)

[Chris_Sav]

tommo said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but - Sav - you invented this variation of the game.
I would think, therefore, that you could stick the triangle where you 'kin well like. ;D ;)

I did Tommo, but its rules got affected by jungle whispers on its way to Reading.

We don't play it 'Off the Spot'. It was only ever meant to prevent the repetetive breaks by removing one shot. AEBBA still tried to make it Jersey practice.

We have the tip of the triangle on the edge of the hundred hole. This makes it more likely that the white peg will go if you clout the triangle. Also the ntaural break angle off the triangle at speed is two cushions and peg. That was deliberately done.

Getting back to break is rewarded by your score going on the board.

Sav.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

sav said:

Getting back to break is rewarded by your score going on the board.

Though a good change to the rules, this wasn't part of the original rules though.

IMO Chris as the originator of this version of the game then you should be the one to propose a set of rules to play to, whether by discussion on this forum or BBQ or whatever. Then if anyone wants to propose an alternative to any rules then that is an option at the final vote stage as amendments to the proposals.

In regards the triangle position then I believe there should be a proposal on the 'size' and construction of the triangle and a dimension (X) given as shown in the following image to ensure all triangles are the same. Then the positioning should be as recommended by you 'touching the outer edge of the 100 hole' this ensuring that everything is consistent between every game.

Sorry Sav,
That came out wrong.

Id didn't mean to imply that the player could place a triangle of balls where he liked - purely that as you were the one who invented the version, who better to know a precise definition of the rules than yourself? (A bit like Galileo inventing the telescope and then asking which end to look down !) ;D

[Chris_Sav]

Appreciated Tommo / KP.

I am humble enough to accept that the majority of others may prefer to play triangles to a different format than my original idea.

Some prefer not to play 'Silly Billiards' at all. ;D

The game remains a popular alternative version of the game that we incorporate in our League Cup and Challenge Cup down here when its an open draw and the minnows are exposed to the big break merchants. It makes for interesting games and close finishes.

Sav.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

The 'Silly Billiards' game though should be played as envisaged and not as a Jersey practice. The rules should be using the whole 'D' to encourage the lesser players to enter. Every decent bar billiards player must admit that their greatest chance of losing to lesser players whether playing league, comps or opens is when they are on a table where the break is very difficult. The whole game is levelled by the removing of the break and that is the concept remove the break ONLY the rest is potting and the lesser players can do this equally well, so making it 'Off the Spot' is then only handicapping them.

[milhouse]

kpringle said:

The 'Silly Billiards' game though should be played as envisaged and not as a Jersey practice. The rules should be using the whole 'D' to encourage the lesser players to enter. Every decent bar billiards player must admit that their greatest chance of losing to lesser players whether playing league, comps or opens is when they are on a table where the break is very difficult. The whole game is levelled by the removing of the break and that is the concept remove the break ONLY the rest is potting and the lesser players can do this equally well, so making it 'Off the Spot' is then only handicapping them.

Good point and maybe the date of this tournament could be looked at. Instead of having this competition as the "Jersey practice" this could be the new date of the British Open off the spot (or whatever its going to be called). This could then be played at a later date as i am sure there is another free week around the same time ?

I agree with Milhouse that ideally a new "British Open" should take over the late October slot currently occupied by the Alternative Rules.

But it would be a shame to dump the Alt. Rules as it is a successful competition and enjoyed by those that take part.

A possible way round it may be the following :

1. Replace Alt. Rules with British Open (last weekend in Oct)
2. Move "Special Ladies" from 3rd weekend in Oct to the last weekend of Nov (to join the Mixed, Under25, Individuals). Yeh, I know it's a lot for one day, but at least everyone will be there !
3. Move Alt.Rules into the slot thus vacated by Special Ladies (3rd week in Oct). Thus it is played alongside the National Team Championships. It should not impinge upon playing ability -if anything should assist players by honing their skills. And the increased attendance should make for a better atmosphere.

No doubt someone will be quick to point out logistics that make it all impossible !
But I would say that this is just offered as food for thought, and if it prompts the Tournament Director to come up with a better idea, then job done ! ;)

[NigelS]

I am certainly toying with the idea of moving around some tournaments this year to hopefully avoid some conflicts that we had last year.
Moving the special ladies with the Mixed Doubles I don't think will work as a lot of ladies will be in the mixed pairs and I don't think they will be realistically able to play in both.
Alternative Rules and National Team Champs being put together, does have problems due to volume of games and also people want to play in both. National team is at least 85 games, and Alternative Rules has a plate as well and usually 32 entries making over 90 games, I think 160 games on the one day is your absolute limit really.

I think there is certainly a better solution to the current calender, seperating the Over 50s and 60s is a must I think as playing in both is always a problem for the TD. Placing the Over 60s and under 25s together is a good idea as noone can possibly play in both!

With regards to an extra week for the British Open this is possible but we already have 7 weeks up there in Reading and 14 tournaments for the TD to prepare for! I believe that it would be a great addition to the calendar but would certainly think it preferable if a county could organise the event along the lines of another open.

Basically all these tournaments have to fit in from Sept 23rd - Dec 2nd (as Brian Daniels moves the tables after the Grand Prix and the Berks Open is the 16th Sept), which is 10 Sundays (1 is for Jersey). This year we used 7 out of the 10 weeks, which I am sure you can appreciate, is enough for the TD and the players who play in most of these tournaments. As I said I am totally in favour of a British Open but fitting it around Jersey time would not really be doable I think.

[Q]

nigels said:

I think there is certainly a better solution to the current calender, seperating the Over 50s and 60s is a must I think as playing in both is always a problem for the TD. Placing the Over 60s and under 25s together is a good idea as noone can possibly play in both!

I think if you made that the over 50's it would work better, more of the competitors are liable to be father/son or mother/daughter, or a combination of them both ;)

Positive thoughts from you Nigel - right up until your last sentence !
When restoration of the British Open has been discussed before, the general concensus seemed to be that it would be a good idea if it was made 'off-the-spot' to make it 'different'. And ideal as a curtain-raiser for Jersey's World Championship.
Agree with you that a county could organise it, to reduce part of the burden of the poor TD, but it has to be staged round about that time. What is debatable is if it could all be fit into one day.

I'm not sure about the concept of having Over 50's and Over 60's on separate days. I would have thought that the present arrangement is most convenient for as it minimises travel for the 'old codgers' - ie. those eligible to take part in both. ;)

Where half-a-day might be saveable might be in the County Team event: Any opportunity to get all three divisions played on the one day (even if it means reducing to two divisions with expanded sections) should be siezed with both hands.

[NigelS]

q said:

nigels said:

I think there is certainly a better solution to the current calender, seperating the Over 50s and 60s is a must I think as playing in both is always a problem for the TD. Placing the Over 60s and under 25s together is a good idea as noone can possibly play in both!

I think if you made that the over 50's it would work better, more of the competitors are liable to be father/son or mother/daughter, or a combination of them both ;)

True Q but the Over 50s is a lot more games than the over 60s and so the over 60s is easier to move from its current dat a tagged onto another event

[NigelS]

Tommo

The trouble with a British Open being around Jersey time is getting all the tables to another venue if another county was to stage it. November 4th is free currently but lets not forget all the bar billiards ltd tables (now owned by Brian Daniels) will be in Reading. So then, the alternative is for All England to run it on the 4th November.

Perhaps i would be prepared to do this for my final year as TD (although would the start of a new tournament have to be agreed at the last AGM?), but would a new TD (if we can find one next December) be prepared to do the extra weeks work.

I think the way forward in future is for the TDs job to be shared to ease the burden on one person. Perhaps 3 people take on the responsibility of different tournaments, but again it is finding the volunteers.

What you say about the Over 50s and 60s being on the same day is probably convenient for the players, but not very practical in terms of running a tournament, Tony Martin played 9 games in total this year in getting to both finals, don't forget there are only 8 tables, so getting all games to be played on different tables is impossible. With the new Ladies Grand Prix, I feel 4 tournaments in one day is too much and one needs to be moved.

All County Champs done in one day - not possible with 14 teams, 2 divisions would be more games than 3 divisions. 3 divisions is 182 games or 23 series and 20 series is an 8pm finish, which is why I think 160 games is your limit for a one day comp.

If I sound negative Tommo, I don't mean to, I think there is a better solution out there, but it is not an easy one to find. Perhaps All england to run the British Open if another county will hold the Alternative Rules at some other point during the year. It has happened in the past and even now, Portsmouth used to stage the National Mixed Pairs, and Redhill hold the British Ladies Open.