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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 18, 2023 16:55:27 GMT
Chris Saville for the over 60's (sorry but the weather will need to be reasonable as will be on the train/push bike.)
I note four members of the England team in the over 50's. As seniors tournaments should be for for seniors and not the cream IMHO, perhaps AEBBA should consider upping the age limits or starting an over 70's nowadays? For info an additional competition does not require a rule change, upping the age limits requires a proposition/seconder.
Funny that I don't remember you saying that 9-10 years ago when you were regularly playing in these competitions and a member of the England Team.... but perhaps you did and I am just getting forgetful in my "senior years"?!    Having said that, I do agree with the intention behind your post and, with more players getting older, perhaps an increase in the age limits should now be considered? Although, with fewer players in general taking part in most competitions, would that then leave enough players to take part to make these competitions viable to run....  |
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 19, 2023 8:10:21 GMT
Funny that I don't remember you saying that 9-10 years ago when you were regularly playing in these competitions and a member of the England Team.... but perhaps you did and I am just getting forgetful in my "senior years"?!
The main reason you don't remember (apart from senility) is that in 26 eligible years I have only played the over 50's eight times. For just a few years I entered soon after reaching 50 and won it twice and then only played three more years from 2012 when I beat you in a very close final when I entered at the tender age of 65, which you seem to forget. My final year I was runner-up at the age of 67.
Perhaps a rankings clause could be considered for the over 50's?? 
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 19, 2023 9:47:48 GMT
The main reason you don't remember (apart from senility) is that in 26 eligible years I have only played the over 50's eight times. For just a few years I entered soon after reaching 50 and won it twice and then only played three more years from 2012 when I beat you in a very close final when I entered at the tender age of 65, which you seem to forget. My final year I was runner-up at the age of 67. Yes, I do remember that final very well. I was chasing your table play-out (about 15.3k) in first leg and broke down on 15.2k with about 1 minute to go, you finished the game off to take the win. It was a good game between us, even though I threw the win away at the end.  It would be great to see you back in these competitions so, hopefully, you will be able to get there on the day.  |
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 19, 2023 10:30:28 GMT
Cheers Dave
Apart from alcohol induced four pin at Sudbury I have not picked up a cue in earnest for nearly four years. and that year it was pretty poor due to worsening eye problems. I have already lost my licence to DVLA this year due to the eye problems. Having my worse eye pumped out and refilled in August has improved things and I can drive again though I try and avoid driving far after dark.
This is just a curiosity one-off to see old friends and help find out if it is worth continuing with the odd game semi-annually in Suffolk as there is no league in range of far East Kent.
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geoff
Full Forum Member
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Post by geoff on Oct 20, 2023 12:47:07 GMT
I agree with you chris, seniors tournaments should be for seniors.
When I played for England I never considered entering in the over 50s.
In fact I have never entered in the AEBBA over 50s, would never have admitted to how old
I was... having said that I could have entered on over 70s comp last year..
Stay young.
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Post by tommo III on Oct 20, 2023 14:03:18 GMT
I first raised this subject (over70s to replace over50s) ten years ago! Thread was entitled "Ageism in Bar Billiards" under "General Bar Billiards Discussion" - which IMHO we have had all too little of recently ! I am starting this thread in deference to a certain member who we have to thank for the very existence of this Forum (but with whom by his own request I am forbidden from having further communication !)This is because amongst all the rhetoric and frivolity, he has made a serious point - where special competitions were once devised to help the minority groups - old codgers, at the time the over 50's - and under 21's (basically for a profusion of teenagers in the 1970s and 80s), the age balance of people playing the game has now shifted dramatically, the over 50's being the majority and the under 21's virtually non-existent. The under 21's has been allowed to move with the times, and has become variously under 22's, under 23's, under 25's and under 30's (I speak generally across league and county) basically so as the same people could take part, without whom the competition would probably fizzle out. The under 50's has (due to the nature of the beast: people age !) gone in the opposite direction and at national level resulted in a doubling up, with an over 60's being introduced. But instead of an over 55's taking over from the over 50's it was a case of 'join our club' for those reaching 50 - which I reckon must be over 50% of the bar billiards playing public. They say that 50 is the new 40 and 60 is the new 50 and that many a good tune can be played on an old fiddle. When I started playing some of the old guard still around at the time were wearing dapper suits, sometimes even hats, and soon gave up the game when young upstarts came along and knocked them off their perches. But those same 'upstarts' are still playing 40 years later in jeans and t-shirts, and remain at the top of the game well into their 60s and even 70s ! (To underline the point, most of the Brighton and Worthing players I used to do battle against for Horsham as a 20/30 year old are still going strong now (which I think is totally brilliant, by the way)). In the local leagues I play in, the over 50's often has an almost identical lineup to the 'normal' Men's Individual. And I can understand anyone who falls between the two stools of 30 and 50 feeling discriminated against - they are now in a minority, no question. So, what's to be done ? I'm not advocating a new competition for 30 - 50 year olds. Those who have made it through from that age bracket tend to be exceptional players anyway and would probably favour any competition they take part in to be 'open' - and would be capable of winning it. But I do think we should look at the top age bracket as being over 50 doesn't seem to mean much these days - you can't even claim part of your pension any more. So for me, "over 50's" and "over 60's" should now become "over 60's" and "over 70's" if they are to have any further relevance. What do others think ? |
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Post by milhouse on Oct 20, 2023 15:14:02 GMT
Realistically, how many entries would you get for an over 70s competition?
If you changed to over 60s & 70s, how many total entries would there be and would this be viable to run? I would very much doubt it.
You would then be excluding a whole load of players from 30-60 (A very big gap) who would have less competitions they can then enter.
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Post by bobhall on Oct 20, 2023 16:46:27 GMT
Realistically, how many entries would you get for an over 70s competition? If you changed to over 60s & 70s, how many total entries would there be and would this be viable to run? I would very much doubt it. You would then be excluding a whole load of players from 30-60 (A very big gap) who would have less competitions they can then enter. correct they are already excluding 30-49 year olds as it is |
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Post by tommo III on Oct 20, 2023 20:57:17 GMT
Realistically, how many entries would you get for an over 70s competition? If you changed to over 60s & 70s, how many total entries would there be and would this be viable to run? I would very much doubt it. You would then be excluding a whole load of players from 30-60 (A very big gap) who would have less competitions they can then enter. With respect, that's a bit of a tired argument. If the idea was being mooted a full ten years ago, then it is even more relevant now. You would probably be amazed at the number of septuagenarians who still play the game competitively. And who may be tempted to take part in a new competition they actually stood a chance of winning. In the bar billiards world, if you're a 50-y-o you're seen as a youngster anyway - why would you want to enter an old person's competition ?  |
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 21, 2023 8:30:29 GMT
Realistically, how many entries would you get for an over 70s competition? If you changed to over 60s & 70s, how many total entries would there be and would this be viable to run? I would very much doubt it. You would then be excluding a whole load of players from 30-60 (A very big gap) who would have less competitions they can then enter.
I thought that was what seniors was for, excluding the younger players??
OK keep it over 50'/60s but in addition exclude anyone in the current England team/reserves for the year, they already have extra competitions if that's your worry. That gives some protection to the senior players in their own competition.
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curtd
Distinguished Member
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Post by curtd on Oct 21, 2023 10:15:16 GMT
Realistically, how many entries would you get for an over 70s competition? If you changed to over 60s & 70s, how many total entries would there be and would this be viable to run? I would very much doubt it. You would then be excluding a whole load of players from 30-60 (A very big gap) who would have less competitions they can then enter. I thought that was what seniors was for, excluding the younger players?? OK keep it over 50'/60s but in addition exclude anyone in the current England team/reserves for the year, they already have extra competitions if that's your worry. That gives some protection to the senior players in their own competition.
I’m all for discussion about the game and you may well have a point ……..but it does sound a bit hypocritical when you played for England 2013/14 and played in the seniors comp both years ??? Curt |
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 21, 2023 16:48:31 GMT
I’m all for discussion about the game and you may well have a point ……..but it does sound a bit hypocritical when you played for England 2013/14 and played in the seniors comp both years ??? Curt What happened ten years ago is irrelevant to the current discussion and rather insulting for the England captain to call me a hypocrite. As usual I'm thinking of the players that make up the numbers and keep the game going.
Please withdraw me from the over sixties, I'll disappear back under my stone,  |
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Post by tommo III on Oct 21, 2023 18:46:12 GMT
Please withdraw me from the over sixties, I'll disappear back under my stone Sometimes it's just not to be. After many years of camouflaging my age by refusing to take part in a Seniors, I bit the bullet and entered both the Mid Sussex and the Horsham in 2019. I won a prelim rd 3-1 in the former and got to the semi-final in the latter. Then the competitions were cancelled due to Covid !!! So I'm now going to rest on my laurels happy in the knowledge that I've never lost a Seniors match.  |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 22, 2023 9:01:59 GMT
I thought that was what seniors was for, excluding the younger players?? OK keep it over 50'/60s but in addition exclude anyone in the current England team/reserves for the year, they already have extra competitions if that's your worry. That gives some protection to the senior players in their own competition.
I will be honest and admit that reading this post has really irritated me....  These are National Tournaments and the player that wins these competition should be entitled that they have won a title that means that they are the best player (that has chosen to enter) in their respective age group. But you want to exclude a group of players that support many of the other national competitions throughout the year simply on the grounds that they are good enough to be selected for England? I am truly sorry that those players are still able to play at a "high level" thanks to their ability and hard work to maintain their game.... however, by virtue of their ages they are still "senior players"!  I am not entirely sure what "extra competitions" the England team play in during the year, unless you simply mean the one international match (against Guernsey) that is played? If so, then the AEBBA have run a "Challenger Event" in the past for players outside the top 100, so that would clearly exclude any England players so the international would be offset by that anyway. What of the "elite" players that choose not to be selected for the England team? Players such as KT, Paul Sainsbury, Jim Millward to name just 3. I doubt that anybody here would disagree with me when I say that these are 3 of the greatest players to have played our game and all 3 certainly still play at the highest possible level. Under your suggestion, they would be perfectly entitled to play in these competitions simply because they do not play for the England team currently while those that still play for the national team are no longer allowed. How does that make sense...??  If we were to introduce this suggestion, then perhaps we would also need to exclude any England players from taking part in the Under 30's or Mixed Pairs competitions to give "protection" to the younger players and ladies that participate in those competitions as well? Sometimes I think the world is going mad....  With respect, we need players to support these competitions, not to look for reasons to prevent them taking part so your suggestion simply has no logic or merit that I can see.  |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 22, 2023 9:31:16 GMT
Realistically, how many entries would you get for an over 70s competition? If you changed to over 60s & 70s, how many total entries would there be and would this be viable to run? I would very much doubt it. You would then be excluding a whole load of players from 30-60 (A very big gap) who would have less competitions they can then enter. . If the idea was being mooted a full ten years ago, then it is even more relevant now. You would probably be amazed at the number of septuagenarians who still play the game competitively. And who may be tempted to take part in a new competition they actually stood a chance of winning. In the bar billiards world, if you're a 50-y-o you're seen as a youngster anyway - why would you want to enter an old person's competition ? I am also struggling to understand why Tommo thinks that this is a "tired argument"..... You only have to look at the number of entries for the competition this year (19 for Over 50's and 14 for Over 60's) and you can immediately see that 10 of those entries are only playing in the Over 50's, so you would immediately remove almost 50% of the people taking part by removing that competition. Suddenly, the day becomes far less financially viable to run, unless the "amazing" number of septuagenarians all decided to start playing in a new Over 70's competition.... when they don't normally participate in any of the other national competitions that are run around the country and are rarely seen even at their local Opens! Would they suddenly decide to make the journey to High Wycombe to take part in this new competition? I personally have my doubts about that, however the ONLY way you could truly find out would be to ADD a new Over 70's Competition and play that alongside the existing competitions. I would be ALL IN FAVOUR of that happening and we could then see what interest there was (if any) in holding that competition. Assuming, after a couple of "trial" competitions to see what response is there, if there are plenty of players for the Over 70's competition, that would be the time to discuss whether the Over 50's should be allowed to continue.... not now when we have no idea of what interest there would be. Moving on to the second part of Mark's original post, by removing the Over 50's competition in addition to preventing the players that already participate, you would also be delaying the opportunity for any players that are approaching the age of 50 to participate in any of these competitions by at least 10 years.... how many future entries could that lose? Is that really a "tired argument", or is it simply logical and based on facts? Once again, I will repeat my previous message and say we need to be finding ways to encourage people to participate in our competitions, not find ways to stop them playing in them. |
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Post by tommo III on Oct 22, 2023 11:29:28 GMT
Dave,
Your suggestion of an additional over 70's alongside the other two seems reasonable to me, providing the extra funding needed could be found.
You should know by now (as I think others would confirm) that I stand for furtherance rather than of discontinuance of competitions.
You have a pop at me for using the words Tired Argument.
Let me say firstly that at no point have I advocated the exclusion of certain players from taking part in an EXISTING tournament.
My comment as above to Traffs merely underlined the fact that if we noted, TEN years ago, the shift forwards of the average age of bar billiards competitors from 50/60, then the situation has since taken on extra relevance, and objections raised back then may now need extra justification.
Sincerely,
tommo
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 22, 2023 13:35:02 GMT
Dave, Your suggestion of an additional over 70's alongside the other two seems reasonable to me, providing the extra funding needed could be found. Hi Clive, Much as I would willingly take the credit for "suggesting" a new Over 70's competition, I think that my post was little more than perhaps giving a way that your idea to increase the age limits could be tried, to enable us to see if there would be support for that event BEFORE we burn the bridges and end the Over 50's competition. So, in the same way that the other competitions do need a certain level of support to make them financially viable to run, a new Over 70's competition would have to have sufficient interest to be played on an ongoing basis and therefore be (largely) self-funding. Assuming it was also played on the same day as either age-related tournaments (which would seem to be the obvious choice) or another AEBBA event, the table costs and other expenses would hopefully be covered in the same way as currently and as it would be intended to attract MORE players to participate on the day the only real costs would be the individual trophies awarded and a perpetual trophy for the competition. I don't know if there are any "spare" historical perpetual trophies for competitions that are no longer played or we may be able to find a sponsor for a new trophy to avoid AEBBA having to pay for that? Like you, I would like to see all of the competitions continue in the future which is why I would NEVER support a proposal to end a competition (or say that "eligible" players should not be allowed to play) although I would ALWAYS support a new competition to enable more players to participate in our game.  Best wishes, Dave PS. As you have never been beaten in a seniors competition, perhaps you should be entering these yourself?   |
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Post by tommo III on Oct 22, 2023 13:40:53 GMT
To save any further angst on this lovely sunny day with clear blue sky ....
The solution just came to me whilst walking the dog:
(Young persons qual. has moved with the times: once u21s, then u25s, now u30s.)
AEBBA Over50's now to become Over55s;
AEBBA Over60's now to become Over65s.
Same trophies can be used, simply recommissioned.
If someone wishes to propose this for the 2023 AGM, I will second.
Things to remain as/is for this year (naturally).
Above, if passed, can be further reviewed in another five years' time.
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Post by triplex on Oct 23, 2023 7:35:18 GMT
Personally I'm not sure you can class the under 21's age being changed as the same. This was changed due to hardly anyone left in that category. The age group was raised numerous time to allow more people to be able to enter and make it viable.
With the Over 50's etc. Each year more and more people can enter the competition.
I'm not sure what difference changing the age group from 50-55 will make.
Apart from knocking us "Oldies" from Northants, back out the competition.
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scooner
Full Forum Member
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Post by scooner on Oct 23, 2023 10:36:10 GMT
totally disagree with your proposal tommo.
Purely for the fact that I will be 50 next year and was actually looking forward to entering this.........
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 23, 2023 13:39:37 GMT
OK Moderators hat on  last two posts deleted.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion on this forum, agree or disagree with another's opinion, but do not deride another's opinion or try to browbeat other members.
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 23, 2023 16:41:56 GMT
Personally I'm not sure you can class the under 21's age being changed as the same. This was changed due to hardly anyone left in that category. The age group was raised numerous time to allow more people to be able to enter and make it viable. With the Over 50's etc. Each year more and more people can enter the competition. I'm not sure what difference changing the age group from 50-55 will make. Apart from knocking us "Oldies" from Northants, back out the competition. I agree with this post totally and think that Simon has answered his own question about what difference it would make with the last line.... it would simply mean that less people would be able to enter the competition! The Under 21's age competition was changed a few times to the current Under 30's a few years ago, for the very good reason to allow more people to participate and to keep that competition running. I have lost count now of how many times that I have said this now, I am starting to sound like an old record that is stuck in a groove.... but we need to find ways to get MORE people playing in the competitions, not change the rules to PREVENT or restrict players from taking part! I would always strongly oppose any proposals that reduce the opportunity for players to participate. |
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last two posts deleted.