County Champs - Oxon A again!

[NigelS]

Oxon A are again county champs and it is their 8th win of the decade so far.

It was the anticipated two horse race between Oxon A and Sussex A and both teams opened with 5-2 wins over Oxon B and Hampshire respectively.

Then came the clash between the two, and there were tight games - KT chased down 7k against Phil Collins only to miss when he had caught up. Chris Reeves left the one up short when he got the break back 5k up onLeon, Dave France nicked one at the death against Steven Sheard, and Tony Martin beat Gareth LLoyd from 5k down. All this provided Oxon with a 4-3 win, which would prove crucial in the end.

Oxon A then battered Hampshire 7-0 but meanwhile Sussex beat Berkshire 6-1. Oxon A waited to see if their B team could do them any favours against Sussex - and they did taking 3 leg off them. This meant Oxon A needed just three legs against Berks to make sure of the title - they stumbled a bit but Phil Collins win against Paul Sainsbury sealed the title. Jon Bamsey won the final leg for the 4-3 win.

The fight for relegation was just as close - Hants took only 2 points from their first 14, but rallied to beat Berks 5-2, Hants then beat Oxon B 4-3 to ensure they stayed up. And Berks 3 legs against Oxon A meant they relegated Oxon B to the 2nd division. Hants got 11 legs, Berks 11 and Oxon B 10

Oxon B will be replaced by Sussex B after they won div 2. Three 4-3 wins did it for them, Northants matched them on 12 legs, but they already knew the winner of their final match with Sussex B would determine the winner.

Performances of note - Phil Collins, Dave France and Tony Martin. won all 4 matches - KT had three wins but just topped the averages 11,975 to Phil's 11,713. Probably not enough consolation for Phil beating KT in their crucial leg :(. In Div 2 Dave Ingram, andy Chambers and Martin Smith won 3 from 3. Mark Brewster had the top average of 6,170 10,283

Well done to Oxon A and Sussex B. Also well done to Dave Alder who ran the day - it all went smoothly

(Will get results on the website soon in a more friendly format)

Final Positions

Div 1
                    P              W       L       Score   Player Ave Pts
D Oxon A           4                4       0    191,570   6,842      20
A Sussex A         4                3       1    188,970   6,749      18
E Hants            4                2       2    128,770   4,599      11
C Berks A          4                1       3    151,900   5,425      11
B Oxon B           4                0       4    108,490   3,875      10

Div 2
                     P           W       L        Score   Player Ave Pts
I Sussex B         3                3       0    112,020   5,334      12
F Northants        3                2       1    109,520   5,215      12
G Kent A           3                1       2    107,100   5,100      11
H Surrey A         3                0       3     77,420   3,687       7

Player Averages

            Div 1
            Code    Player           County        P          W       L       Brks    Score   Ave
           1D5      Phil Collins     Oxon A            4       4       0       2  46,850  11,713
           2A3      Dave France      Sussex A          4       4       0       2  27,530   6,883
           3D4      Tony Martin      Oxon A            4       4       0       2  24,870   6,218
           4A5      Kevin Tunstall   Sussex A          4       3       1       2  47,900  11,975
           5E7      Barry Radford    Hants             4       3       1       2  38,350   9,588
           6D7      Jon Bamsey       Oxon A            4       3       1       2  34,930   8,733
           7A1      Chris Reeves     Sussex A          4       3       1       2  32,810   8,203
           8C2      Tony Walsh       Berks A           4       3       1       2  31,450   7,863
           9D1      Leon Beer        Oxon A            4       3       1       2  26,360   6,590
          10D6      Dennis Atkins    Oxon A            4       3       1       2  23,480   5,870
          11C3      Keith Lewendon   Berks A           4       3       1       2  22,790   5,698
          12B4      Alan Oliver      Oxon B            4       3       1       2  21,030   5,258
          13A2      Ian Lelliott     Sussex A          4       3       1       2  20,690   5,173
          14C5      Paul Sainsbury   Berks A           4       2       2       2  29,090   7,273
          15E6      Alan Chaloner    Hants             4       2       2       2  26,670   6,668
          16D3      Steven Sheard    Oxon A            4       2       2       2  26,010   6,503
          17E1      Tony Woolvin     Hants             4       2       2       2  19,680   4,920
          18A6      Nigel Senior     Sussex A          4       2       2       2  19,660   4,915
          19A7      Richard Wooton   Sussex A          4       2       2       2  19,420   4,855
          20B6      Simon Ellam      Oxon B            4       2       2       2  18,700   4,675
          21E2      Lee Radford      Hants             4       2       2       2  14,540   3,635
          22E4      Tony Webster     Hants             4       2       2       2  12,810   3,203
          23C6      Dave Alder       Berks A           4       1       3       2  24,550   6,138
          24A4      Gareth Lloyd     Sussex A          4       1       3       2  20,960   5,240
          25B5      Tony Willis      Oxon B            4       1       3       2  18,590   4,648
          26B3      Terry Cook       Oxon B            4       1       3       2  16,680   4,170
          27C1      Adam Cox         Berks A           4       1       3       2  16,120   4,030
          28B2      Maxi McDonnell   Oxon B            4       1       3       2  12,070   3,018
          29B1      Kevin Godfrey    Oxon B            4       1       3       2  10,750   2,688
          30B7      Mark Trafford    Oxon B            4       1       3       2  10,670   2,668
          31C7      Bill Trinder     Berks A           4       1       3       2  10,300   2,575
          32D2      Peter Lee        Oxon A            4       1       3       2   9,070   2,268
          33C4      Phil Hawkins     Berks A           4       0       4       2  17,600   4,400
          34E5      Dennis Claydon   Hants             4       0       4       2  11,520   2,880
          35E3      Chris Newson     Hants             4       0       4       2   5,200   1,300

        Code    Player          County  P       W       L       Brks    Score   Ave
       1I2      Dave Ingram     Sussex B       3       3       0       2  24,730   8,243
       2F5      Andy Chambers   Northant       3       3       0       2  21,440   7,147
       3I1      Martin Smith    Sussex B       3       3       0       1  19,330   6,443
       4G6      Mark Brewster   Kent A         3       2       1       1  30,850  10,283
       5I7      Kevin Hall      Sussex B       3       2       1       1  27,410   9,137
       6G3      Curt Driver     Kent A         3       2       1       2  26,970   8,990
       7H6      Geoff Jukes     Surrey A       3       2       1       2  22,140   7,380
       8F7      Chris Lawman    Northant       3       2       1       2  20,580   6,860
       9F6      Steve Oram      Northant       3       2       1       1  18,020   6,007
      10F3      Simon Coleman   Northant       3       2       1       2  16,460   5,487
      11G7      Chris Saville   Kent A         3       2       1       2  14,210   4,737
      12H4      Colin Robbins   Surrey A       3       2       1       2  11,820   3,940
      13G1      Gerry Fitzjohn  Kent A         3       2       1       2  11,710   3,903
      14G4      Pete Sainsbury  Kent A         3       2       1       1  11,660   3,887
      15H2      Terry Oakley    Surrey A       3       2       1       2  10,770   3,590
      16I3      Mal Spier       Sussex B       3       2       1       1   9,890   3,297
      17F1      Jason Neal      Northant       3       1       2       2  14,010   4,670
      18I4      Bill Kerr       Sussex B       3       1       2       2  11,530   3,843
      19I5      Tony Jenner     Sussex B       3       1       2       1  10,360   3,453
      20F2      Penny Burch     Northant       3       1       2       1  10,130   3,377
      21H5      Frank Doyle     Surrey A       3       1       2       1   9,640   3,213
      22F4      Damien Coates   Northant       3       1       2       1   8,880   2,960
      23G5      Derek Latham    Kent A         3       1       2       2   8,210   2,737
      24H3      Gary Powell     Surrey A       3       0       3       1  12,680   4,227
      25I6      Alan Messer     Sussex B       3       0       3       2   8,770   2,923
      26H1      Clive Thompson  Surrey A       3       0       3       1   7,680   2,560
      27G2      Doug Phillips   Kent A         3       0       3       1   3,490   1,163
      28H7      Dave Constable  Surrey A       3       0       3       1   2,690     897

[Chris_Sav]

Averages are all shot in div 2 Nige.

I also cocked up the cut 'n paste in tabulating them properly and chopped the bottom, soz.

Well done to all the organisers.

Sav

[Chunky Monkey]

Sept 22, 2008 7:26:24 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Averages are all shot in div 2 Nige.

Sav

Correct or i think so i have pm'd him asking why it has been divided by 5 and not by the 3 matches played :o

[Chunky Monkey]

Congratulations to Oxford on winning Div 1 with Condolences to Sussex A (Next Year Guys) ;)

And Congratulations to us Sussex B, It was an Honor to represent the County and am looking forward to playing in Div 1 next year (If i am selected of course) ;)

A fantastic day and glad i was able to be apart of it.

[Colemanator]

Is it just me?

But I really don't think that B teams should be playing against A teams in Div 1, IMO if a b team wins Div 2 then that's where they stay, if an A or only team win then they get promoted, like wise with relegation, An A or only team can only replace the same?

Like I said it's only my opinion 8-)

Just to add my thanks for the day, and yes, well done to Dave Alder who ran it efficiently.

Here for the record were the individual match results:

Div 1
Sussex A 5, Hants 2
Oxon B 2, Oxon A 5
Berks A 5, Oxon B 2
Sussex A 3, Oxon A 4
Oxon A 7, Hants 0
Berks A 1, Sussex A 6
Hants 5, Berks A 2
Sussex A 4, Oxon B 3
Oxon B 3, Hants 4
Oxon A 4, Berks A 3

Div 2
Northants 5, Surrey A 2
Kents A 3, Sussex B 4
Sussex B 4, Surrey A 3
Kent A 3, Northants 4
Northants 3, Sussex B 4
Surrey A 2, Kent A 5

Congratulations to Oxon A on retaining the title - Sussex must have thought they had a good chance of regaining the title when they turned up Milko-less, but it was not to be.
Well done Hants on escaping the relegation trapdoor - they rallied well, winning two matches having taken only 2pts from the first two.
Surrey provided a lacklustre performance in Div 2, the County's honour now resting with their Ladies next Sunday.
Gutted for Northants, tie-ing on Points but losing out on matches won after blowing a 3-0 lead against Sussex 'B' in the last match.

Sept 22, 2008 9:18:42 GMT Colemanator said:

Is it just me?
But I really don't think that B teams should be playing against A teams in Div 1, IMO if a b team wins Div 2 then that's where they stay, if an A or only team win then they get promoted, like wise with relegation, An A or only team can only replace the same?
Like I said it's only my opinion 8-)

It's a well-documented problem, Colemanator, but certain counties with sole teams have not helped the situation with "no shows" (ie dropping out at the last minute.

We now have a situation where a county (Bucks) are available to play in Div 3 but might not be allowed to - and even if they were, they would not be welcomed back into Div 2 next year should they 'win' promotion. And if that were to happen, Div 2 would once again have only 4 teams next year. >:(

You cannot really blame the 'B' teams - they were allowed in to bolster the flagging line-up. And we may yet see a 'C' team admitted, under the equal opportunities act (as AEBBA Rules stipulate that it can happen in the Ladies' competition ;D ;D)

I would like to see a rule added whereby a county's A team or sole team cannot be demoted below a certain level. That would still allow promotion opportunities to 'B' teams in certain circumstances (but not all).

But of course any such proposals would have to be put before, and ratified at, the AEBBA AGM.

[BB Warrior]

Sept 22, 2008 9:18:42 GMT Colemanator said:

Is it just me?

But I really don't think that B teams should be playing against A teams in Div 1, IMO if a b team wins Div 2 then that's where they stay, if an A or only team win then they get promoted, like wise with relegation, An A or only team can only replace the same?

Like I said it's only my opinion 8-)

I understand the point you are making....... however, taking promotion away from B Teams wouldn't act as much of an incentive for people who want to play at a high a level as possible.

Both Oxon B and Sussex B have deserved their promotions to Division 1 in the last couple of seasons by winning all 3 of their matches against other Counties A Teams......... take away that promotion opportunity and we would probably end up with Division 1 being a closed shop to the A Teams that are there.

Division 2 could then end up either being contested between Oxon B and Sussex B every year, with other A Teams unable to be promoted as they didn't win Division 2...... or weakened because Oxon & Sussex B either sent less competitive teams - or didn't bother sending a team at all! :(

Speaking personally, I was honoured to be asked to play for Sussex B and, if selected, would love the opportunity to play in Division 1 next year. :P

I think the Colemanator is making the valid point Dave that maybe it should not have been allowed to happen in the first place. And Nigel has admitted that he had severe reservations.

A better structure for the competition would be much like Sussex have in their own One-Day Interleague competition, where we have the A teams in 2 divisions, and then a separate competition for the B/C teams: Promotion/relegation is allowed between the A teams' 2 divisions only, and the B/C teams are just playing for the title with no hope ever of promotion. The downside is that this is tough on Worthing 'B' who compete at the top level in the Home and Away competition, but aren't allowed to perform at the top level in the One-Dayer.

I don't begrudge Oxon 'B' and Sussex 'B' their successes so far, but the way things are heading we will in a few years' time end up with a competition for just Oxon and Sussex 'A', 'B' and 'C' teams, and no other counties being interested.

[Colemanator]

Sept 22, 2008 10:59:29 GMT tommo III said:

I don't begrudge Oxon 'B' and Sussex 'B' their successes so far, but the way things are heading we will in a few years' time end up with a competition for just Oxon and Sussex 'A', 'B' and 'C' teams, and no other counties being interested.

Me neither, but you're right that's the way it'll go.

[Chunky Monkey]

You Best pull your fingers out then guys and start practicing ;D ;D ;D

[BB Warrior]

I can see the points that you are making, but there is no easy answer to them that I can think of. :(

Unless........... with Oxon & Sussex seemingly much stronger than the other teams at the moment, possibly the other counties could combine into "Regional Teams" (ie Kent & Surrey, Hampshire & Berkshire and Northants & Bucks) to make them stronger and more competitive? :o

You could then run a competition for A, B & even C Teams with 5 "Regions" in each level, giving the optimum number of games on the day for the players taking part with all of the matches being more competitive. 8-)

It's probably a bit of a "revolutionary" idea to solve the problem for it to ever happen....... but it might provoke an interesting debate here....... ;D

[Colemanator]

you could split Sussex into Mid and West ;D

[BB Warrior]

Sept 22, 2008 12:26:01 GMT Colemanator said:

you could split Sussex into Mid and West ;D

I think you mean EAST and West.........!! ;D ;)

[DA-DM]

.....which opens up a whole new area as west sussex stretches from fishersgate all the way to emsworth...........and east stretches t'other way. obviously !.... :-X :-/

[BB Warrior]

Sept 22, 2008 12:52:26 GMT DA-DM said:

.....which opens up a whole new area as west sussex stretches from fishersgate all the way to emsworth...........and east stretches t'other way. obviously !.... :-X :-/

Now I know why we let you navigate yesterday........!! ::) :o

Are we there yet.....?? ;D :-*

The East and West Sussex idea is not a new one, I put that forward two years ago on the basis of them being separate counties geographically.

But for that to gain acceptance at National level, there would have to be separate Associations, and at the moment it is convenient for Sussex to have just the one Sussex County Bar Billiards Association with one lot of affiliation fees etc.

The other idea of combining so-called 'weak' counties into one just to play in the annual competitions is, as you say, far too revolutionary.

Remember, you'd be affecting the lifestyles of people who've had it a certain way for years, and quite frankly it just wouldn't work.

[BB Warrior]

I agree Tommo that it will probably never happen...... it was just an idea to provoke some discussion. ;)

With regards to splitting Sussex into East and West, I doubt if this would make any real difference to the "Combined Sussex" Team that we see at present...... nearly all of the Sussex A players who were at Reading yesterday play in both Brighton and Worthing / Horsham Leagues currently, so presumably they would qualify for both East & West Sussex if the county was split so I would expect that the whole team would choose to continue playing together for one or the other..... ;)

I suppose that it would then give the Sussex B players the option to play as an A team for the "other half" of the County, which would overcome the issue raised by Colemanator about B Teams playing in Division 1....... ::)

So now all we need to do is work out how to split Oxon into 2 halves as well....!! ;) ;D

It would be interesting if we could revisit that old thread: I think the discussion started with a serious proposal of the East Sussex county comprising Eastbourne, (erstwhile)Hastings, Lewes, Mid Sussex and Brighton, and the West Sussex county to include Worthing, Horsham, Billingshurst, Littlehampton - and of course West Sussex.

This sounded a nice balance, as East Sussex could be predominantly Brighton players and West Sussex predominantly Worthing. Then as usual the waters became muddied, by someone suggesting a split between North and South of the Downs.

But the real reason put forward why it's not viable - a valid one - is that separate Associations would be needed for it to be accepted at All England level, which means separate bodies, separate committees, separate accounts, separate selection panels, etc.

Since that time it HAS come about, not as mooted, but in the guise that you see now - two Sussex teams in the Top section next year. Remember that they was quite considerable opposition to having a Sussex B team in the first place, and it was only sanctioned at the 2006 AGM.

I think you ought to be grateful for how matters stand, and leave it at that !

Sept 22, 2008 14:43:10 GMT BB Warrior said:

So now all we need to do is work out how to split Oxon into 2 halves as well....!! ;) ;D

That's an interesting one.

The Vale of the White Horse district and parts of the South Oxfordshire administrative district south of the River Thames (taking in Abingdon, Didcot, Faringdon, Wallingford and Wantage) were historically part of Berkshire, but were added to the administrative county of Oxfordshire in 1974, almost doubling it in size (the opposite of Sussex, which at the same time was divided into two).

Conversely, the Caversham area of Reading - where we played yesterday - was historically part of Oxfordshire ! :o

[BB Warrior]

Sept 22, 2008 11:15:48 GMT Colemanator said:

Sept 22, 2008 10:59:29 GMT tommo III said:

I don't begrudge Oxon 'B' and Sussex 'B' their successes so far, but the way things are heading we will in a few years' time end up with a competition for just Oxon and Sussex 'A', 'B' and 'C' teams, and no other counties being interested.

Me neither, but you're right that's the way it'll go.

I'm more than happy to leave things as they stand Clive....... I was simply putting forward an idea as an alternative to the rather sad thoughts on this post..... :-/

Congratulations to Oxon A on their victory yesterday and many thanks to the organisers for such a great day......... ;D

Apologies, I should have mentioned both of those much earlier rather than going "off topic"........ :-X :-X :-X :-X

Practical solution required then for the motion tabled by the Colemanator, as otherwise we do lose the thread !

Sept 22, 2008 10:11:42 GMT tommo III said:

I would like to see a rule added whereby a county's A team or sole team cannot be demoted below a certain level. That would still allow promotion opportunities to 'B' teams in certain circumstances (but not all).
But of course any such proposals would have to be put before, and ratified at, the AEBBA AGM.

This is NOT my idea originally, but is the only way to placate the sort of teams that we are now losing at the rate of one a year !

But if this is ever to be implemented, it has to be done NOW, before any more B teams - or indeed, C teams, are admitted. (Milhouse reckoning an Oxford C team is viable).

And if this year's 3rd Division comprises less than five teams (leave things be if it's a good line-up with five teams) then next year we should go back to two divisions, promoting Northants to make 6 in Div One and 8 in Div Two in 2 groups of 4 plus a Final.
All playing on the same day.

And then say that no A team or sole county team can slip beyond Div 2 should ever the 3rd Div be reinstated.

It will make for a long day for next year, but if people don't mind turning up at 10am for Opens then we could start an hour early (11am) and have an 8.30 or 9 o'clock finish to accomodate the extra games.

[Colemanator]

why not have a weekend away, play various competitions over a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday, gets it all done and dusted in one go ;) 8-)

Believe it or not you've got something there.

If you read my last posting through, my proposal to abolish Div 3 would, if adopted, leave a free date on the calendar.

This could be used for a (sponsored) British Open 8-) that we were discussing on here last year - until it all went silent.

[NigelS]

Hi guys, thanks for spotting the div 2 averages mistake. They were divided by 5 because me/ Dave used my old spreadsheet where div 2 players were set up to play 5 games. I was just a bit knackered last night after the ritual post tournament curry and didn't get back till 12am. Thought I'd post the results up but didn't really check the averages through, but I will get them corrected, should have realised all you div 2 players played that well!. Sav - if I just edit the original post, you can do the rest and make it look nice.

Only briefly read the part about B teams going into div 1. I always said the danger was a div 1 of two Sussex, 2 Oxon and another county. the introduction of B team was always going to be to the detriment of the weaker counties, ok Oxon B went down, but only just. We should have gone via the route of our interleague, in that B teams would play on another weekend, for a B team trophy. Therefore larger counties could give opportunites to more players to play at county level, but still safeguarding the lesser counties future. I said this 3 years ago and was scoffed at because noone really believed the B teams would pose such a threat, Myself and Alan Messer were pretty much the only objector. No disrespect to my fellow Sussex B team who excelled yesterday, but we could in theory put out a hell of a B side , Terry Race, Jim Millward, Mark James, Steve Mariner, Dave Reeves to name but a few. Indeed our county champ Ricky Dewdney did not even play either. So although I congratulate the B team for getting the chance to play us next year, I would rather see the top B team players getting into division 1 by taking the place of players in the A side - and before people say it is too tough to get in our A side, all 7 of us in there already have had to work their way into the side - taking over from the names I have just mentioned.

Can it be changed, well proposal can be put forward at the AGM. I think we have gone too far down this road, now and shifting the goalposts would be a bit of a kick in the teeth for Sussex B who have worked their way up for the last two years.

[bigtj]

Just managed to get on line after a few problems, once again a well organised day, intense competition and from my point of view well done to my Sussex B team for a well deserved win and fort he team atmosphere.

Realise that there are a number of top players not included in the B team, but a lot of them do not always wish to play for the B`s, and asproved yesterday it sometimes is better to have a team who really want to play and create great team spirit.

[peetee]

Congratulations Oxon on winning the Div 1 title again.
Brilliant :) :) (Who needs Milko unchanged next year ;D)

[Alan Messer]

Thoroughly enjoyed being part of Sussex B's successful sortie yesterday ( I exaggerate I merely turnd up rather than being a part of the success) ....

but at the risk of being shouted down about how he leagues will turn out ....

I told you so!

On more positive note well done to the organisers - a good day well run.

Also well done Mal Spier on a most enterprising and indeed long route back to Sussex - I blame KT but thats another story.

[Q]

Sept 22, 2008 15:24:46 GMT tommo III said:

Remember that they was quite considerable opposition to having a Sussex B team in the first place, and it was only sanctioned at the 2007 AGM.

Your memory's playing tricks on you Clive...
It was the 2006 AGM, and I am proud to say that I captained the first Sussex 'B' team that year 8-) Well done MY team ;D ;D

Sept 22, 2008 22:19:22 GMT Q said:

Your memory's playing tricks on you Clive...
It was the 2006 AGM, and I am proud to say that I captained the first Sussex 'B' team that year 8-) Well done MY team ;D ;D

Amended on my original post, and apologies to the non-playing captain who finished up playing ! ;) ;D