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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Oct 17, 2008 7:49:09 GMT
Hey guys an gals thought I would throw this one for your consideration.
During a recent match, we were at home, I was scoring, the match was a fairly close one, but we had already won the tie 3-1.
The oppo player (lets call him Joe) was on a break of 900 or so, with the red ball parked up in between the 100 and 200 pockets, dead center of table, Joe, played the only other remaining ball, potting one and leaving the other teetering on the edge of the front of the 10 pocket.
Then Joe quite simply stepped back one pace and jumped in the air, :o the resulting impact on the floor meant that the teetering ball no longer teetered but promptly fell in to said 10 pocket, and made to continue his break, at which point a fairly gobsmacked Jock informed him in no uncertain terms that he had fouled and lost his break.
This he graciously accepted and the match continued, with Joe eventually wining a close fought match.
My issue really is do we have a rule for that sort of blatant cheating, because in my mind thats what it is. Having had a conversation with Joe after the match and having discused with him what I thought was unaccepable behaviour he informed me that he was just as surpised when the ball went in as everyone else was, and was only messing around.
Had this been 2-2 and the match this close could he have been disqualifyed? Should he have been disqualifyed anyway? Do we have any disqualification rule's? Mama Hall and myself couldn't think of any. Has anyone ever been disqualifyed?
Comments please.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 17, 2008 7:56:59 GMT
Assuming your league subscribes to the AEBBA rules of the game you were correct in your application.
Under rules that lose the current break (27)
M). Causing a ball resting on the lip of a hole to drop by deliberately disturbing the table.
HTH
Sav
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2008 9:21:27 GMT
I'm going to be controversial, and say that I think there is a burden of proof to be decided here.
I would have accepted the player's view that he was larking about and surprised when the ball dropped: as a scorer I would have called end of break but would have allowed his score to stand.
The implication is that the table had been disturbed from underneath by shaking the floor, but have you considered that the ball drop may have been completely coincidental ? How can you prove that it wasn't ?
What happens when you have a big 20-stoner on a sprung floor just walking away from the table and a ball drops ? It could be open to all sorts of misinterpretations.
But I do support the action taken here on the night, harsh though they may have been, as it gives out the right sort of message - don't cheat ! Even if you don't mean it.
There are far more subtler methods of cheating unfortunately which are prevalent in our game - usually involving scorers. Simple things like mumbling the scores and adding a few on here and there. That to me is a far more serious state of affairs than the incident in question.
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Post by captain nige on Oct 17, 2008 11:17:28 GMT
i think you were right jock it is cheating he must have know that the ball might go down and anyway if you move away from the table and a ball drops in a hole it does not count in the break. as what tommo said about a 20 stone man on a sprung floor theres a big diffrance between jumping and walking away which i would not call cheating (we all can't be 11 stone) i like to think he was surprised as you all were when the ball went down it goes against the spirt of the game. :)
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 17, 2008 11:52:25 GMT
i think you were right jock it is cheating he must have know that the ball might go down and anyway if you move away from the table and a ball drops in a hole it does not count in the break. Walking away is another missconception of the national rules. 33 vi). If during the course of play a ball remains on the lip of a hole the scorer shall decide when to call end of break in accordance with rule 21. (Player walking away from table does not determine end of break) Sav |
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Post by captain nige on Oct 17, 2008 12:35:47 GMT
i stand corrected thanks sav we allways thought it did, but now know better nb
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 17, 2008 12:48:47 GMT
i stand corrected thanks sav we allways thought it did, but now know better nbProbably the biggest missconception in the game and I would guess the majority of players would give the same answer. There is a heavy onus on the scorer to be assertive in this instance. The other bit of course is that the ball should have been replaced! Sav. |
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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Oct 17, 2008 15:21:41 GMT
Great comments guys and thanks, I now currently have a copy of the AEBBA rules as they stand now.
The Joe in question stated he was surprised only after the game was finished, I felt his action was quite deliberate and very obvious, so with in mind that stand by my decision to call a foul and loss of score, It made little difference to the end result as Joe went on to win, but could easily have been very very different.
Yes I have encountered a couple of 'mumblers' but the most annoying one is the 'accidental' moving of the scores when turning around or brushing the old elbow over them, subtle but effective, you know who you are, but so do we, we are watching lol.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2008 17:35:19 GMT
Probably the biggest missconception in the game and I would guess the majority of players would give the same answer. There is a heavy onus on the scorer to be assertive in this instance. Sav. Very important to understand this one as it happens so often. So scorers: A player waits for a ball to drop, and has more or less given up and turns away and the opponent is on the way to the table. But if the ball suddenly drops the scorer is empowered to call the first player back ! This is such a fine line to tread. It is recommended that the scorer removes all doubt by saying "end of break" at some juncture. Personally I would do that once the players had passed. But the important thing, as Sav has indicated, is that 'walking away from the table does NOT necessarily mean 'end of break'. I wonder what percentage of the bar billiards world have this clear in their minds ? I'd say maybe one percent ? :o The other bit of course is that the ball should have been replaced! Sav. I wouldn't even count myself among the 1% who would have applied that - it didn't even occur to me ! :o ;D |
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Post by theoldfella (R.I.P.) on Oct 18, 2008 11:09:04 GMT
I remember playing in an interleague match in The Dyke Tavern a few years ago when the home player had left a ball on the edge of the pocket. He had a ball in his hand ready for his next shot which he threw with force back into the tray. The teetering ball dropped into the pocket. The player continued his break with the approval of the scorer.
We were astonished and remonstrated with the scorer at the end of the game. He maintained that the action was one of frustration not a deliberate attempt to get the ball to drop and thereby defended his action to allow his player to continue his break and ultimately win the leg.
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Post by toby1000 on Oct 19, 2008 21:18:32 GMT
This a message from Joe.
My name is suddenly Joe this week.
We Watermill B had a wonderful match, we where laughing and had great fun during the last session having we lost already!
I don’t know why I was jumping 2 yards behind the table when a ball stopped on the edge, I had potted a ball so I was still in the game, it was enthusiasm and excitement that I had for me a good score in hand.
When I realised what I did, I straight away went to Jock and apologised he was moaning and wanted to disqualify me, I didn’t agreed but suggested lost of score Yes.
Every body had a laugh and Jock told me to play on!
Afterwards Jock and I had a talk about the situation and I regretted it was a stupid mistake.
When I read all the fuss about this on the forum I thought WHAT are we doing here!
Is the Forum to punish people for silly a reaction? I just want to play a game and have a fun evening!
We as new comers from last year enjoy the game and the other players we meet.
We have a great time but please don’t be so serious, I can’t make a living out of this game or do you?
The Flying Dutchman.
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Post by captain nige on Oct 19, 2008 22:21:38 GMT
if you have seen me play you would knowi'm not serious player, but some people do take it so mistakes are made, we'r only human. the biggest pain i have is the only ball on the table is behind the ten hole, only one ball left in the tray and the player your playing puts the ball stright down the nearest hole making no try to hit the ball behind the ten hole. and the scorer which was 9 times out of 10 did not call a foul. this has happend to me by so called top players, this i feel is cheating and against the spirt of the game after all we all want to win but theres a limet nb nb sorry about the spellng.
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 20, 2008 6:19:25 GMT
This a message from Joe. My name is suddenly Joe this week. We Watermill B had a wonderful match, we where laughing and had great fun during the last session having we lost already! I don’t know why I was jumping 2 yards behind the table when a ball stopped on the edge, I had potted a ball so I was still in the game, it was enthusiasm and excitement that I had for me a good score in hand. When I realised what I did, I straight away went to Jock and apologised he was moaning and wanted to disqualify me, I didn’t agreed but suggested lost of score Yes. Every body had a laugh and Jock told me to play on! Afterwards Jock and I had a talk about the situation and I regretted it was a stupid mistake. When I read all the fuss about this on the forum I thought WHAT are we doing here! Is the Forum to punish people for silly a reaction? I just want to play a game and have a fun evening! We as new comers from last year enjoy the game and the other players we meet. We have a great time but please don’t be so serious, I can’t make a living out of this game or do you? The Flying Dutchman. Well "Joe"........ the reason for all of the "fuss" here is that cheating (in any form) has no place in our game. >:( Sir Jock raised the issue as he wanted clarification of the Rules as he wanted to make sure that he, as the scorer of the game, had made the correct decision to call a foul shot...... which he had, as was clarified by Sav. Having said that, and knowing that you and your team are only in your second season and tend to play the game purely to have an enjoyable evening out, I would be inclined to accept that your action at the time was simply a case of over-enthusiasm........ combined with maybe a touch of frustration that the ball had not dropped in the hole of it's own accord when you played the shot. As Tommo pointed out, the ball may have even fallen in anyway as you were lining up your next shot...... but in the opinion of the scorer, your action of jumping up and down near the table was a deliberate attempt to make it go in...... which is breaking the rules. Hopefully, you and your team will continue to play the game with the enthusiasm and enjoyment you bring to all of your matches, it is always a pleasure to play against you...... however maybe it would be worthwhile for you to get a copy of the AEBBA Rules which are available from the All England Website - www.aebba.org |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2008 9:22:42 GMT
if you have seen me play you would knowi'm not serious player, but some people do take it so mistakes are made, we'r only human. the biggest pain i have is the only ball on the table is behind the ten hole, only one ball left in the tray and the player your playing puts the ball stright down the nearest hole making no try to hit the ball behind the ten hole. and the scorer which was 9 times out of 10 did not call a foul. this has happend to me by so called top players, this i feel is cheating and against the spirt of the game after all we all want to win but theres a limet nb nb sorry about the spellng. This one is in fact covered under All England Rule of Play 32, Big Nige : 32. Deliberately foul shot.
If, after the bar has dropped, a player in the opinion of the scorer deliberately plays a ball directly into a hole without touching another ball, then the ball should be retrieved and the other player allowed to play it. Any additional coins required to do so should be provided by the player deemed to have played the foul. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2008 9:31:39 GMT
...... however maybe it would be worthwhile for you to get a copy of the AEBBA Rules which are available from the All England Website - www.aebba.org(Also for Martin): ..............Or, just click on the AEBBA logo at the foot of this page, which will take you straight in to the AEBBA website. Also, I believe as captain of a team in the Mid Sussex League, you should have received a copy of all 3 sets of rules at the start of the season from Jenny: a) Mid Sussex B/B League; b) Sussex County B/B Association; c) All-England Association. Why three sets? you may ask...... Well, there aren't any duplications, as there is only one set of playing rules ! (this was not always the case and a lot of work was done about 20 years ago to 'standardise'). Mid Sussex League affiliates to Sussex County, and Sussex County affiliates to All-England - hence we play by All-England Playing Rules. |
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Post by theoldfella (R.I.P.) on Oct 21, 2008 11:54:27 GMT
Please note though that should there be any conflict between Mid-Sussex and any other set of rules, the Mid-Sussex rules apply to Mid-Sussex matches.
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 21, 2008 14:20:42 GMT
Please note though that should there be any conflict between Mid-Sussex and any other set of rules, the Mid-Sussex rules apply to Mid-Sussex matches. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference in the rules between Mid Sussex and All England? |
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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Oct 21, 2008 17:31:37 GMT
This a message from Joe.My name is suddenly Joe this week.We Watermill B had a wonderful match, we where laughing and had great fun during the last session having we lost already!I don’t know why I was jumping 2 yards behind the table when a ball stopped on the edge, I had potted a ball so I was still in the game, it was enthusiasm and excitement that I had for me a good score in hand. When I realised what I did, I straight away went to Jock and apologised he was moaning and wanted to disqualify me, I didn’t agreed but suggested lost of score Yes.Every body had a laugh and Jock told me to play on!Afterwards Jock and I had a talk about the situation and I regretted it was a stupid mistake.When I read all the fuss about this on the forum I thought WHAT are we doing here!Is the Forum to punish people for silly a reaction? I just want to play a game and have a fun evening!We as new comers from last year enjoy the game and the other players we meet. We have a great time but please don’t be so serious, I can’t make a living out of this game or do you?The Flying Dutchman. Joe, Joe, Joe You have mistaken the reason for putting this incident on the forum, and was very well explained by BB warrior so thank you Dave. Had you read my orginal post properly, you would have noticed that I used Joe as your name simply so that you could remain annonymous. You did not approach me during the game and apologise, and I certainly did not moan at you, you were firmly but fairly told that In my opinon that was cheating and if you repeated the action I would disqualify you. Yes we all laughed it of at the end of the match and I recall discussing the incident with you at great length, regardless of how much we laugh it off it or dress it up, cheating is cheating, end of. Furthermore!!!!! This was put up on the forum, not to cause a FUSS but to open it up for DISCUSSION which is exactly what we do here. It was not put up here to dispparage you or your team nor to punish you, otherwise I would not have attempted to keep your identity quiet. No one is shouting you cheat at you, it was, I believe a spur of the moment thing and done in jest which was accepted by myself and my team mates. The Flying Scotsman. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2008 10:14:58 GMT
Please note though that should there be any conflict between Mid-Sussex and any other set of rules, the Mid-Sussex rules apply to Mid-Sussex matches. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference in the rules between Mid Sussex and All England? I don't think that there is any conflict in Playing Rules. None that I can think of anyway. Competition Rules and Constitutional Rules are however a different matter altogether, and specific to the locality in question, which is what I think Roy is referring to. |
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Post by captain nige on Oct 24, 2008 5:26:38 GMT
rule 32 thank you, trouble is what if the scorer does not call a foul, have you any right to appeal at the time or after the game?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 9:59:16 GMT
As is often the case, this rule was introduced to echo what happens in the snooker world.
As you know the 'snookered' player is required to make a creditable shot at another ball, and if by committing a foul, the player leaving the snooker is left disadvantaged, he is entitled to insist that the ball is replaced and the player try again.
As there is no additional penalty (like the 4pts away in Snooker) it was deemed that for bar billiards the offending player forfeits the right to another go at it, and the non-offending player then gets his chance to win.
As with most situations where a rule has to be invoked, the scorer has to be vigilant and interpret the rule and apply it to the letter. And of course not all scorers are this competent, so in that case he/she may need to be prompted from the sidelines as to what is supposed to happen !
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