Tables situation

[Sparky]

I have, today, managed to get into Tarrats for a chat, which I have done from time to time, and given the feed-back that I had been asked for and was duly thanked for making the effort, as usual I found them to be helpful and receptive.

They were shocked and apologetic about the problems we had this weekend and told me that those particular tables were already earmarked to go out as rentals, after repairs of course, much as our previous match tables had done apparently.

The overall problem is that there is an upturn in demand for BB tables and they do not have any spare, and it will take time to 'do up' more tables as apparently they have managed to obtain a small number of slates (always the problem). The situation has not been helped by the changes at Bar Billiards Ltd who used to supply some parts.

We must all appreciate that as a business they, and I, would put tables out for a rental income rather than have them sit around waiting for competitions, however I have been told that he (no name, no pack drill) will try to make sure that 5 tops are ready for the One Day series (making 6 with the club back-room table) and the Open (more tables will be needed anyway).....BUT if he cannot supply all of them it will be because he hasn't got them. They are constantly trying to obtain more tables/slates/spares etc. which cannot be easy when all is said and done. They are now, I am told, the sole remaining supplier of Sams tables in the country.

I have, as Chairman, had a few informal chats with other, past and present, committee members both this weekend and previously regarding the competition table situation and we will be looking into what can be done that does not upset the long and friendly relationship we have enjoyed with Tarrats.

This is a separate thread for discussion and useful suggestions regarding competition tables in the future but please be careful not to post anything that may be considered offensive to Tarrats as a business/the individuals there/the SCBBA committee/ others that give of their time and effort to make the competitions happen. No moaning about the past please.

[BB Warrior]

Great work Sparky for going to see Tarrats so quickly. 8-) ;D

Certainly, we all have to bear in mind that they are running a business and that will always mean that Rentals will take priority over County Competitions where the tables are only used for the Singles & Doubles Weekend, One Day Weekends and Sussex Open.

If I remember correctly, we used 7 tables at the One Day Interleague competition last year. I believe that there are 2 "home" tables at Roffey Club, so if Tarrats are able to supply 5 tables that would be very helpful. 8-)

However, we would obviously need more tables than that for the Sussex Open..... and if Tarrats cannot "guarantee" to supply them then we would need to look at other options, ie Brian Daniels / AEBBA (from 2010) for this year and beyond.

Given the long and good relationship that we have had with Tarrats, I think it would be a great shame if that were to happen, it would also mean that the Sussex Open would lose the "unique" fact of using Sams tables. :(

The only other alternatives that I can think of would be......

1) Either for the County to buy some tables themselves, which could be used in some of our pubs (to repay the cost) for most of the year but then used for County Competitions during the "off season". Given the cost involved in purchasing the tables, I suspect that this option is unlikely unless we are able to raise money through table "shares" as the AEBBA is looking to do at present.

2) Or, would it be possible for the County themselves to hire the Tables from Tarrats on a permanent basis and then sub-hire them out to pubs on a profit-share scheme, but still be able to remove them for competition weekends? Possibly, Tarrats would be prepared to look at a "special" rate if we were looking to hire out 6-8 tables permanently, depending upon costs involved we could even look to do our own maintenance if this were to reduce the prices?

Hopefully, a couple of suggestions to get the ball rolling...... ;D ;D

[Sparky]

Thanks for the reply Dave and perhaps I should have said before that as a principle Tarrats are happy for us to move their tables from other venues (as agreed with the USC for instance) but that they could not cope with doing the extra work themselves, so we would have to supply the workforce and transport ourselves, and at the moment I could see this happening for the Open weekend.

They are very busy at the moment which is good news for the continued existence for our supplier, although Bar Billiards doesn't make them any money and are only doing a rental agreement now, having dropped the shared profit method.

[H]

Interesting...they still run the shared profit scheme with us at the fish...

Well it seems to be going the way of Bar-Billiards Ltd. Firstly they dropped profit-share and only did rentals. Then they put up the rentals and offered landlords the chance to buy the tables. Finally they pulled out of rentals and it was 'buy or we take the table away'.

We need to keep Tarratts sweet for as long as possible. Sparky has done some good PR work with them IMHO. No-one who takes a pride in their operation likes to be criticised especially if it is fair comment.

We are riding the storm at the moment regarding the future of tournaments, and as BBW says, the commitment of the required amount of tables to Roffey in Feb/March is gratifying.

But looming over the horizon is the day when rentals are put so high that landlords won't want to run a b/b table any more - or they are handed the option of buying the table and say no.

That's when a scheme like that adopted by Redhill and Dover & Deal will have to come in.

[Sparky]

Henry, I was referring to new agreements, nothing was said about changing existing ones but if a table does not take enough revenue then anything is possible I suppose.

Your comments are reasonable Tommo but hope that the great commitment by Rod, and previously Ralph of course, will continue with the even bigger hope that circumstances allow such support.

The idea of buying tables, ala Redhill/D&D, has already been shown to work and is an option if required, and would add that the difference is of us discussing Competition tables rather than constantly used Venue tables, with the inherently lower income, could be overcome by the suggestion (BBW) that they are used in other Venues for the rest of the year..............this could be very contentious with the home team/s if not made clear at the outset, and could probably be offset by some form of compensation. All of which is conjecture at the moment but useful to get clear ideas.

Comments noted in your third paragraph with interest.
But don't you think that if such a scheme were viable, it would have been thought of before ?

I don't think that Tarratt has the luxury of having 'competition tables' set aside - he is constantly upgrading tops, and switching tables from venue to different venue when he has to, and what he lets us have is what his spare stock happens to be at the time.

[H]

Going back to my previous comments, a few years ago, the competition tops were nothing but first class and I very much doubt back then that they were just the "spares". What has changed in the last 4 years?!

Well H, my comment was bred out of my personal experience with dealing with Tarratts 15 years or so ago when I was Horsham League Secretary.

His service was always first class, but I could not always get the desired number of tables for events (for the obvious reason of short supply), which meant that for some events, nights were late ones !

And in those days, you had to apply for a licensing extension in advance if the event was expected to go on beyond 10.30pm. :o

Nowadays, as Sparky has said, the shortage has mainly been in replacement slates, but in those distant days it was always clock mechanisms he was after.

I would imagine the problems of last weekend are down to shortage of time for attention to detail, and are hopefully a minor blip. As nothing of much consequence has happened in four years to change things.

[Sparky]

You are both right in a way as they did used to have a basic match set of tables as the same ones used to keep turning up, I particularly remember the one with the wrongly marked White Peg spots (that were hurriedly remarked one year) and another that was well known for it's 'dead' side cushions (could it be the one at the USC ?), but even then they would swop one now and again. Currently they have pressure to supply tables and have had to use match tables and thus, one could argue, have sent whatever they could.

This is not ideal for us but understandable for them as a business, but I was very encouraged by the attitude shown and hope that circumstances allow them to supply the quality and quantity of tops they talked about, and if they include the new slates they obtained recently I have high hopes of those tables being good. As a note of caution I doubt they will be able to keep such tables back if the demand from rental business continues, sorry if that seems bleak but only time will tell.

edit: overlapped with your last post Tommo.

I think we can draw some encouragement from those points, then, Sparky.

It is also good that Tarratt seems flexible about 'other' tables being supplied to events to bolster the numbers. A sign of willingness to work together rather than trying to have us over a barrel !

Keep up the good PR work, the local League Secretaries also.

[H]

Well. On that note. If this fish table is ever required for competitions I would gladly offer it as I consider it a very high scoring top, especially when set up correctly!

[BB Warrior]

Jan 12, 2009 21:51:31 GMT tommo III said:

Comments noted in your third paragraph with interest.
But don't you think that if such a scheme were viable, it would have been thought of before ?

Since most tables have been in place for many years and have tradionally come from the same suppliers, I would imagine that nobody has ever needed to consider an option like this before as we all like to have an easy life and keep the "status quo".

However, with the recent developments at Bar Billiards Ltd and the decision by Brian Daniels to stop providing the tables for the Opens and sell these to the AEBBA, it would seem that the future of our game could well depend on Counties / Leagues / Pubs & Clubs / Individuals buying and controlling our own tables.

Obviously, raising the capital in the first place to purchase the tables is the biggest problem..... however, if this can be achieved, then income from rental to Pubs & Clubs could be used to repay this (probably more quickly than the AEBBA "shares" as the tables would be in weekly use, rather than just for Opens etc) and subsequently maintain the tables in the future.

With regards to their use for competitions, I agree that if we were operating the tables on a "profit share" system with the venues that they are in, then we would need to offer some form of compensation system to make up for the tables being removed.

Possibly, something along the lines of the venue keeps 100% of the table income for a week if the table is removed for a weekend competition? Since tables at quite a few venues tend to get moved at weekend to make more space for live music / more people eating, we may find that some venues would be pleased to have the extra space anyway. 8-)

It would be interesting to find out more about what arrangements Redhill and Dover & Deal have made with the tables they have bought? (apologies if that information has been posted elsewhere...??) ;D

I just think there's no need to panic quite yet (yes I know that was said about B-B Ltd !) as Tarratt has given every indication that the status quo can be maintained for the present.

The only contingency arrangement that might be advisable is for the County - if it is cash rich - to buy a couple of tables. The county could trust someone like Richard and Marcus to cut the deals on eBay on its behalf.

Jan 13, 2009 8:28:06 GMT BB Warrior said:

[It would be interesting to find out more about what arrangements Redhill and Dover & Deal have made with the tables they have bought? (apologies if that information has been posted elsewhere...??) ;D

Attempting similar to Redhill and D/D for Sussex at this stage would seem to be premature. There is the All-England situation to be sorted out first !
For the record, Redhill League now owns 11 tables and acts as its own table operator. It generates income from these tables through rentals (which is at a more advantageous rate for the venues so they are happy). We do our own maintainance as/when needed.
The revenue will eventually be used to pay back all investors over a five-year period.

[JB]

Dave just to clarify the situation for the Sussex Open. Last year the tables for the Sussex Open were from both Tarrats and Brian Daniels. Brian Daniels has already been booked to supply tables this year i just have to confirm the number we need. It will be at least 5 to make it worthwhile them delivering which would mean only 3 would be needed from Tarrats anyway plus the 2 club tables. There shouldnt be a problem and i shouldnt have to source tables from venues.
Yes next year we will have to look at the options available

[BB Warrior]

That's good news Jean...... ;D ;D ;D