SUSSEX COUNTY AGM 2010

[SirKT]

The SCBBA AGM has now been re-arranged to Sunday 15th August at the United Services Club in Haywards Heath, start time 8pm.
Any proposals or rule changes should be sent to the County Secretary (Nigel Senior), to be received by Sunday 1st August.

Sorry for any inconvenience :)

I am quoting this posting of KT's on the AEBBA board, as it has some relevance to the forthcoming Susssex AGM:

Jul 2, 2010 9:05:36 GMT SirKT said:

I agree congestion is a problem and I think my second idea of an end of June competition in the 6 week gap is probably favourite.
I would also be glad to organise and run this competition so we can get it back on the calendar ;D
I will be putting a motion forward at the Sussex AGM about having a Sussex Ladies open, also in the summer, as I feel there aren`t enough competitions for the Ladies. I have a very good venue in mind and perhaps this could be linked with the Off the Spot open on the same weekend :P
Mary`s idea of moving another one of the October competitions forward, freeing up a date just before Jersey is also a good one,
but this means it will have to be in Reading.

Basically, KT has been championing the cause of an off-the-spot Open (effectively restoring the old National Singles which 'morphed' into the 'Alternative Rules').

I think he had plans to offer Sussex as the venue to stage it, but the baton has been taken over by the AEBBA and it now looks like they want to fit it into the calendar and stage it at Reading.

But regarding KT's comment that the Ladies are not catered for enough, most would agree, but I wouldn't expect that there has been much positive feedback from the separate canvassing he has been undertaking.

Trouble is, the standard of the ladies at the top end of the scale is too high, and faced with the prospect of coming up against Jean, Bella, Gina, Sandra, Lorraine, Hayley, etc the inclination for the 'lesser ones' is that of "why should I bother ?"

So to me the solution is obvious. The County must restore the Champion-of-Champions Competition which was last staged in 2001/2002. You already have the Trophies for it, with engraving dating back to 1970/71. This rewards the winners of the ten individual leagues in Sussex by allowing the reigning singles champions to 'go forward' to play in a knockout tournament to decide............the Champion of champions.

There is then an incentive to earn the right to play in this by qualification. No arbitrary 'I'll give it a go' and then withdraw at the last minute which tends to happen in an ordinary open singles.

There will be those who will say that the competition dwindled down to nothing and had to be discontinued. But that was because the original format was meddled with and the competition drawn out into a full day with a complicated system of round robin and group qualification. It worked much better as a simple knockout competition, played off in one evening at a nice pub.

[BB Warrior]

Aug 4, 2010 9:35:19 GMT tommo III said:

But regarding KT's comment that the Ladies are not catered for enough, most would agree, but I wouldn't expect that there has been much positive feedback from the separate canvassing he has been undertaking.

Trouble is, the standard of the ladies at the top end of the scale is too high, and faced with the prospect of coming up against Jean, Bella, Gina, Sandra, Lorraine, Hayley, etc the inclination for the 'lesser ones' is that of "why should I bother ?"

So to me the solution is obvious. The County must restore the Champion-of-Champions Competition which was last staged in 2001/2002. You already have the Trophies for it, with engraving dating back to 1970/71. This rewards the winners of the ten individual leagues in Sussex by allowing the reigning singles champions to 'go forward' to play in a knockout tournament to decide............the Champion of champions.

There is then an incentive to earn the right to play in this by qualification. No arbitrary 'I'll give it a go' and then withdraw at the last minute which tends to happen in an ordinary open singles.

Unless I have misunderstood, I think that SirKT's intention was to make it an "Open" for the Ladies, to be held in Sussex, so presumably entries would be from all over the Country..... you can therefore add Auntie Pauline, Mrs Newson, Diesel and several other very good lady players to your list Clive. 8-)

I would disagree that the "lesser ones" do not enter the competitions..... 35 ladies at the BIOC in Redhill earlier this year prove that there are plenty of players who are willing to give it a go against the leading ladies..... but, as there are already more competitions that the ladies can play in than the men..... unfortunately, I am in the camp that questions whether we need another ladies competition anyway? ??? :-/

I'm not sure that re-introducing the Champion of Champions Trophies would be the "solution"...... with so many players now playing in multiple Leagues many of the "champions" would prove to be the same players...... Jean won the Ladies Singles in Brighton & Worthing and I won the Mens Singles in Lewes & Mid-Sussex last year to give just 2 examples. ;D

So, all we would end up with would be an "elite" competition for a few players...... when surely we should be encouraging more people (of all standards) to be playing and trying the competitons?

Aug 4, 2010 10:21:49 GMT BB Warrior said:

So, all we would end up with would be an "elite" competition for a few players...... when surely we should be encouraging more people (of all standards) to be playing and trying the competitons?

I agree this comment, but not in the context of Ladies bar billiards.
There are several factors to consider here.

1. The idea of a new National Open for Ladies. Conversely, I'd say this is not needed as we already have the BIOC Ladies (held at present in Surrey) which the other Counties' Ladies support (and if you asked them, they'd probably say that was enough).

2. The ladies who (still) play in Sussex have the one-day Ladies Interleague in which to showcase their talents - or show their potential. But whereas in the last century nearly every league in Sussex had a Ladies' team, now there are only three (Brighton, Worthing and Mid Sussex) and the competition was laid to rest for four years before being resurrected with the help of the Ladies from Redhill being added to bolster the competition. It is now 'healthy' again, with some Leagues supplying both A and B teams - but certain ladies (eg from Horsham, Billingshurst and Lewes) who used to play can't do so now unless by way of guesting for one of the other leagues still with a team.

3. Back to my earlier comment about the standard of the best ladies having a negative effect - apart from for anyone with a burning ambition to reach that standard - does such a lady even exist ?

So - and I am trying to help here, so please don't dismiss this before it's had a chance to be aired - it seems logical to allow these top ladies - and the up and coming ones who've just won their League's Singles title - like Jenny Edwards who is Horsham Champ, Diesel who is Billingshurst Champ etc - to qualify by right to play in the Champion-of-Champions................ along with the elite.

BTW, your comment 'many champions would be the same person' is a red herring, Dave, there was a tried and tested format which lasted for 30 years. If one champion qualified twice, they could surrender the slot of their choice and allow the runner-up to represent the League instead.

[BB Warrior]

Some very valid points Tommo..... and I would never dismiss any proposal that would encourage more people to play competitively..... 8-)

Aug 4, 2010 12:17:14 GMT tommo III said:

2. The ladies who (still) play in Sussex have the one-day Ladies Interleague in which to showcase their talents - or show their potential. But whereas in the last century nearly every league in Sussex had a Ladies' team, now there are only three (Brighton, Worthing and Mid Sussex) and the competition was laid to rest for four years before being resurrected with the help of the Ladies from Redhill being added to bolster the competition. It is now 'healthy' again, with some Leagues supplying both A and B teams - but certain ladies (eg from Horsham, Billingshurst and Lewes) who used to play can't do so now unless by way of guesting for one of the other leagues still with a team.

I did hear some strong "rumours" a few months ago that the Ladies were hoping to run a Sussex Ladies Home & Away Inter League Competition again, I believe Redhill, Brighton, Mid-Sussex and (possibly) Worthing were interested...... I haven't heard anything recently...... :-/ ..... but it would be great if something were to be arranged? ??? 8-)

Thanks for pointing out the situation in respect of "multiple champions"......

Aug 4, 2010 12:17:14 GMT tommo III said:

BTW, your comment 'many champions would be the same person' is a red herring, Dave, there was a tried and tested format which lasted for 30 years. If one champion qualified twice, they could surrender the slot of their choice and allow the runner-up to represent the League instead.

.... I wasn't aware of that having only been playing since 2006, so the Champion of Champions was before my days! ;D ;D

I would suggest that maybe you should contact Nigel, who is General Secretary of SCBBA, and ask him to add it on to the Agenda for the Sussex AGM which will give it the chance for all those that attend to give their views....... it would certainly receive my support - for what that is worth! ::) ;D

Thanks for that Dave and I certainly agree with you that this provides food for thought and possibly subject material for discussion at the AGM.

My motives for flagging this up now really stem from all the research I am doing on past County and Interleague history, and it has become apparent to me anyway that the county is all the poorer for the loss of these great competitions.

KT, who is proposing new events, is probably not even aware that they ever existed, as would anyone entering recently into Sussex circles. All the more reason for adding a proper "Hall of Fame" section to the Sussex website.

We have actually aired the topic of 'bringing back the Champion-of-Champions Competition' before on here, and I remember that Nigel was supportive at the time, having appeared in the last-ever Final (2001-2) when being of limited experience - and losing out to John Slee. I gained the impression that he would love to have a second chance at winning the event.............. ;)

[JB]

Just a few comments from me which are my own personal feelings. Not going to do quotes coz they never seem to work for me!

1. SPECIAL LADIES OPEN - Apart from the BIOC there is also the Special Ladies held in Reading. Neither of these comps seem to have a really good attendance. The BIOC with 35 entries is pretty good but how many of these were Surrey players and how many of these attend the Open in Reading. I know one who entered on the day because they were already there playing in the Team event. Also a lot of the Sussex players who enter this also do not go to the Special Open in Reading. This means 2 extra comps already for ladies only, so perhaps there should be a men only open?

2. Champions of Champions.- Not sure im right but i think this changed to a home and away basis for the following reason. It was originally played on the inter-league weekend before the introduction of the B team comp which meant there was a spare day. There used to be 9-10 men and 7-8 ladies and was played in groups. No way could you play this amount of games in a nice pub on only one or two tables. Hiring the tables needed just means a lot more expense and finding a venue big enough.
The home and away was only played for a couple of years. The main reason it stopped was because as usual a lot of players didnt bother arranging there matches. The first year it was played i played my home and away leg then waited 2 months before i knew who i was playing in the next round.

3. Ladies having negative effect. Not sure this comes into it. A few years back in Brighton when there were quite a few lady players 3 or 4 ladies said they wouldnt enter because i was probably going to win it. I told them all that i wasnt going to enter (which i didnt) and not one of them actually bothered to enter. I think anyone who says this is just using it as an excuse.

4. Ladies Inter-League.- I personally havent heard any rumours about it going back to home and away. If it was im not sure i would play as there are enough weekends already taken up with bar billiards.
I worked really hard to resurrect the ladies one day and really glad i did as it is now a success. I made it clear from the start that leagues such as Mid Sussex, Lewes Billingshurst etc could combine players to make a mixed team. This still stands.
Anyone who has been to this day knows what a great day it is and if some leagues cant get 5 players i have tried to find them players from other leagues.
Clive you say players from Horsham, Billingshurst and Lewes cant play now. They can if one of them makes the effort to get 5 players from those 3 leagues to make a combined team.

Just to put the record straight, I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, Jean. My comment about Lewes Horsham and Billingshurst Ladies wasn't supposed to come across as a negative comment, it is great that the likes of Jan Bithell, Ding etc can be accomodated in the way that they are: Ladies Interleague is currently enjoying a renaissance which is good to see.

But regarding the willingness of ladies to enter a new competition in Sussex, there is definitely not the interest than there was - apart from in the coastal leagues. So it would be the same ones as usual entering. The idea of restoring the Champion-of-Champions would be to encourage entries from further afield - by putting extra kudos into winning their own league's singles title thus qualifying for a more prestigious event.

Times change, and what worked in 1990 might not have worked in 2000, but who's to say it couldn't work again in 2010, especially as we still have ten leagues in Sussex ?

[Ros]

Aug 4, 2010 12:17:14 GMT tommo III said:

3. Back to my earlier comment about the standard of the best ladies having a negative effect - apart from for anyone with a burning ambition to reach that standard - does such a lady even exist ?

BTW, your comment 'many champions would be the same person' is a red herring, Dave, there was a tried and tested format which lasted for 30 years. If one champion qualified twice, they could surrender the slot of their choice and allow the runner-up to represent the League instead.

I find that rather demeaning Clive, yes I will put my hand up - such a lady does exist... and yes I am determined to get there, I know I can (and have) beat some of those 'top ladies' and have done so more than once. I'm certainly not afraid to keep trying! I like to think that when I have been playing as long as they have, that I will be up to their standard.

In the case of the Champion of Champions, I remember the last time this was held - Lorraine had won both the Horsham ladies and the Mid-Sussex title, she elected to represent Horsham, which left me (as runner-up) to represent Mid-Sussex, which I willingly did (it was on a home and away basis and, after winning my first round, I played home and away against Kim Beeching and happily travelled to Hastings) The following year, when I won the Mid-Sussex title, I was more than happy to have another go - but I was told there was no support for it.

Finally, the 'Special Ladies' - this is very badly named and advertised. It was only the year before last that I found out that this existed and that it was another ladies open and that anyone could enter. Sadly that year I was already commited to judge a Dressage competition and the following year I was away on holiday. I hope to compete in it this year.

I certainly would not object to another Ladies competition to be held in Sussex and would definitely enter - but I am not convinced that we need another, as we all have the chance to enter lots of opens and also league competitions for ladies.

Aug 4, 2010 12:17:14 GMT tommo III said:

The ladies who (still) play in Sussex have the one-day Ladies Interleague in which to showcase their talents - or show their potential.

Attempting to pigeon-hole people is always a dangerous thing. If it has come across that you are 'one with potential' then it was meant as complimentary: apologies if it came across as patronising, Ros. :-/

I would also place Margo in that category, as one who is 'learning all the time'. She too feels there are already sufficient competitions, but sometimes an incentive is needed to encourage entry.

[SirKT]

I for one don`t think that 2 Ladies Opens a year is enough.
Looking through the A.E. rankings, I see that there are well over 70 ladies playing throughout the country and of course, there will be more that haven`t quite managed to acquire any ranking points as yet.
A lot of these ladies won`t enter the main opens for fear of drawing one of the top male players, so another one inbetween the BI Ladies & the Special Ladies opens would seem appropriate.
I have spoken to quite a few Ladies throughout the main areas, Sussex, Surrey, Oxon, who said they would support another Ladies open, in Sussex, provided they were available.
I have a very nice venue in Lancing and providing the competition doesn`t fall during the football season, then it should be available.

[Chunky Monkeys other half]

I wouldn't be interested in anymore Ladies comps, i prefer playing in the other opens, so you sometimes get beaten by a lot sometimes not, it is all a good experience.

Aug 5, 2010 12:34:35 GMT SirKT said:

I have spoken to quite a few Ladies throughout the main areas, Sussex, Surrey, Oxon, who said they would support another Ladies open, in Sussex, provided they were available.

"Provided they were available" sounds a bit non-committal to me. ::)
Idea sounds good in theory, but you may have under-estimated the apathy that still exists in the bar billiards world..........The message I've heard coming through loud and clear is that we have already reached capacity with competitions.

I reckon the best way round this is a slight juggling with existing competitions, thus:

1. Allow Sir KT to take over the "Special Ladies" and hold it in Sussex as he proposes, thus freeing up a slot on the AEBBA calendar.

2. Replace it with the proposed "British Open" (off-the-spot) to be held at Reading and under AEBBA auspices.

3. Restore its rightful trophy, and a replacement one for the Alternative Rules competition to be commissioned using AEBBA funds - which can then be replenished out of the entry fees for the British Open.

That way, everyone's a winner. :-/

[BB Warrior]

Just a brief reminder that the SCBBA AGM is tonight at United Services Club, starting at 8pm.

For the benefit of those that haven't been to the venue before, the address is as follows....

United Services Club
6-8 Wivelsfield Road
Haywards Heath
West Sussex
RH16 4EG

Hopefully we will see a good turnout...... with beer and drinks at Club prices!   8-) ;D

[bigtj]

Unfortunately poorly supported, but some good poits came out, and Sussex A and B team selected. Sure the secretary will bring up to date with what happened.

[bigtj]

A rule change was agreed at the AGM just to cover the champion of champions not being a current event, as the rules at present cover that competition and not the Watney Mann or our current County Champion via the singles representing Sussex at the nationals.
Also a claification rule covering competitions still played over 3 legs.

[NigelS]

Aug 18, 2010 18:40:41 GMT tommo III said:

Well, Hayley, according to TJ (in the post just before yours) mention of the Champion-of-Champions has just been removed from the SCBBA Rules in acknowledgment of its failure to exist for 9 years.

Unfortunately I couldn't make the AGM, so don't know what was discussed, but it sounds as if the subject did get an airing !

Tommo

The Champion of Champions TJ referred to was actually the Watney Mann that was discussed and in that the Sussex rules it still referred to league champions only being invited which is not the case anymore.

Unfortunately the Champion of Champions was not discussed, but I do agree Tommo, that this was a great competition held since the 1970's and would be worth resurrecting if we could a) get the tables (I only feel it could be done as a one day event) and b) we could all league represented and most of them being the current league champions. Sad to realise it is now 10 years since this was last held

Shame you were not there at the AGM, Tommo, as we did miss your valuable input.

Hopefully I will put a summary of the main points from the AGM on the forum over the weekend