petem
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Post by petem on Feb 27, 2007 19:13:05 GMT
You beat me to it Doug.I was going to suggest basically the same thing Having played on Saturday in the B team competition I was surprised to see players from other teams turning out for a "lesser team" Bill Kerr for example who played for Worthing C Charlie Cooper who a week earlier had played for Worthing A was commandered into our Worthing D team because we were 1 short I fully understand that not everyone can play on a Saturday and that some reserves have to be called up,so why not follow the Home/Away Inter-League /Open format and play on a Sunday This way you could probably be certain of having enough players to fill B,C,D teams I know that logistically this may cause a few problems and that the division matches would spread over a longer period of time(not just 2 weekends) but surely it is something worth looking at?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2007 19:16:12 GMT
As a Littlehampton player i have ask where are you people getting three extra players from, the only new player bought in is Ian Lleliot and that is only to replace Stuart Mepham who cannot play. The rest of the team is the same as last year and the year before and the year before that, and all players playing all play in the Littlehampton League. Do we take it then that 'Chelle is back in ?
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Post by Sparky on Feb 27, 2007 19:20:24 GMT
This has developed as a thread and I hope some good will come from it but one observation from me:
Is it right that a player can play for different teams on different days in this 1day Interleague series. I realise that this immediately opens up the question of the ladies and can we afford to restrict each player, male or female, to play just once in the series, bearing in mind our dwindling player resources.
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Post by Lord Cheeky on Feb 27, 2007 19:23:08 GMT
Chelle was never left out, but has chosen not to play.
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Post by bigtj on Feb 27, 2007 19:35:00 GMT
I do think a lot of the selection is down to loyalty and we Worthing C are a very loyal bunch who certainly go out with the intention of winning, but as Kevin Stoner says it is all about a great social day with maybe one or two beers. The reason we asked Bill Kerr to play was our H/A skipper was unavailable and he only agreed if it did not mean a regular C player not getting a game. Charlie C only stepped in for Worthing D when one of their players was a no show and I suggested that Dave Anscombe asked Charles rather than being one short, I am sorry if I influenced another captains choice.
If the rules allow for players to play for who they like without any qualifying criterium, then captains will be influenced in picking as different set of players from those who play the H/A league.
Good for Chelle for taking the stance and it is a shame that loyalty is not always enough, bur at least by highlighting the issue rules maybe able to be looked at. The shame of it all is that these issues unjdermine our game, and also detract from the hard work that goes into organising such events with little enough praise in the first place.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 27, 2007 19:35:33 GMT
I've not posted on this thread as its a Sussex one,
You need to tread a very careful line between encouraging players to compete, which is in everyones interest, especially to make up struggling teams and on the other hand preventing super teams.
Sav
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2007 19:48:40 GMT
Is it right that a player can play for different teams on different days in this 1day Interleague series. I realise that this immediately opens up the question of the ladies and can we afford to restrict each player, male or female, to play just once in the series, bearing in mind our dwindling player resources. Just to answer this one for Sparky. I think all will agree that ladies are a special case. They can play in their own Interleague competition, and some are good enough to hold down a place in the 'Open' One-day Interleague. It's generally accepted that men have to give their allegiance to one League only in the One-Day, although it is sometimes a different League to the one they represented at Home And Away. Otherwise Q would be playing on all four days - in the Ladies as well if we'd let him. ;) ;D ;D
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Post by bigtj on Feb 27, 2007 20:05:08 GMT
Q in a skirt would put all the other competitors in the ladies event off enough to make him player of the day.
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Post by Alan Messer on Feb 27, 2007 20:17:26 GMT
I have not joined the discussion until now as I have an Ofsted inspection at my school tomorrow.
I wonder what the inspectors would say if they could see this hotbed of discontent.
Just to clarify a few issues
The main and primary competition of the SCBBA is the home and away interleague. Leagues may enter as many teams as they can field or afford. A league formation meeting is held at the end of the AGM each year to decide which teams are in which division. therefore if we had a greater or lesser number of teams promotion or relegation issues would not be clear cut and the committee would make decisions based on numbers.
Although Worthing A and B are in the same league ( someone correct me if I'm wrong) Worthing A have never finished below Worthing B in that league. perhaps something could be inferred from that?
The structure for the one day interleague competitions is clear. Every affiliated league is invited to send one team to the competition. At one time all the teams arrived together on one day and the competition ran for more than twelve hours. this situation was rationalized by splitting the competition into two divisions with annual promotion and relegation between the two.
The beauty of this was that it provide the opportunity to introduce the perfect format with 5 teams. The enlargement to encompass Tunbridge Wells made a slight imbalance to Division 2 but I think the format used was more than adequate in terms of fairness.
The competition for B and C teams was introduced a few years ago to allow those players who did not make the 'A's to have an opportunity for competition. So that teams from the superpowers of Horsham, Worthing et al could blood their players.
There is no link between the home and away structure and the One Day structure. Mid Sussex were a third division side last year -yet are a div 1 A side. There are no connections.
Could I also clarify that the Worthing B players did not vote with their feet, rather three went on pre booked holiday and I believe a further 2 of the regular side went to support football teams. in hindsight I should not have allowed Worthing to enter as a C- and a D side and their runner up trophy will be engraved with Worthing B as they were the senior of the two sides to enter from Worthing this year.
I believe they wanted to be Worthing C as they won it last year, but as Mark so rightly pointed out these are not club sides they are representative sides.
Another point requiring clarification is the rule which allows players to play for a side in the One dayers other than the home and away interleague side. This rule was brought in to reflect the situation which had been allowed to happen year on year in contravention of the original rule. At that time LITTLEHAMPTON regularly had to call on players with dual registration in order to field a side for the one day competitions. They were in breach of the rules but a blind eye was turned to allow the competition to go on. This rule was put in place to keep things legal. Now that so many ??? players are diving through this loophole we might need to close it again. All teams seem to be self supporting and that is the way it should be.
I wish Glenn well with his attempt to get Worthing to object to the player swap issue - but the player in question has not played for Worthing H/A therefore there is no case to answer. Minimum qualification is I fear a non starter. If people are desperate to win they will bend and and creak the rules until they snap. that is their prerogative. It will be the job of the next committee to come up with solution. It is true that there are 4 days before the competitions take place. lots can happen in that time but I don't for one minute think it will, because no rules have been broken.
The spirit of bonne homie between the leagues is being stretched though. There are so many players who play for different leagues that allegiances are becoming untenable.
I sympathize greatly with Michelle and Jason, and I'll buy you both a big drink on Saturday Chelle when I make my third of 4 appearances at your pub in just 9 days
Finally though, I must again echo what Mark has said - its about representative sides not clubs and each league committee must start to look at this issue and become a lot more active in who plays for them and the reasons they are chosen.
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Post by Alan Messer on Feb 27, 2007 20:30:33 GMT
Just to field petem and the query about players - no players played who were inelligible to play
The reason that competitions take place on saturdays and sundays are
1 Every time a table is hired it costs in excess of £50. therfor they need to used on saturday and sunday to make them cost effective
2 tables are big and bulky and are deliverd on fridays and collected again on Mondays - if not played on they have to be stored
3 setting up tables is time consuming and labour intensive for some people - quite often me
4 there are not that many free weekends let in which to stop the weeds growing in my garden.
PS all tables this weekend have been generously sponsored by outside supporters
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Post by Owners' Account on Feb 28, 2007 0:39:13 GMT
Fear ye not for I will not be placing any formal objection to the committee.
I feel my objections would be better registered in other ways... not sure what they are yet but either way no need to worry....
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petem
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Post by petem on Feb 28, 2007 7:55:50 GMT
Alan/Big tj I was not questioning the elligibility of any players.It was just that come break off time we were 1 short due to being let down by 2 of our players.I know that this is not my problem ,as I am not the captain and thanks to Charlie for stepping in I do not know the reason why our 2 players were absent,that is for Dave Anscombe to deal with Redhill not turning up was probably very disapointing for yourself as you did an excellent job of organising everything on the day.It is not that the dates and venue were a secret!!! It was just an observation that there was an inter-mingling of players from different teams present on the day I know that a lot of players turn out in different leagues and my apologies if it came across the wrong way
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Post by chellster on Feb 28, 2007 13:56:22 GMT
Just to reply to Lord Cheeky as i said in my first post i was not offered a place but to share a place with you - as you know.
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dipper
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Post by dipper on Mar 3, 2007 11:48:22 GMT
Last year Ian played for Worthing A in the one day competition as we were short of a player, but only part of the year in home and away as he said he felt he was not playing up to his best and any incouragement on my part was not going to prize him out of retirement. This left us in a predicament as we had no regular reserves.
This year he did not play at all for Worthing A but approached me for a place in the one dayer, I said he could play if any of my regular home and away team players could not make it. The question was asked and every loyal player to a man said they could, so there was no place for Ian, which he accepted and said he had some other options open to him, I bade him good luck and parted as friends.
So as you see by my explanation of the sercumstances is that in my book I feel I must stick to my loyal team of home and away players that turn out for me in all weathers. In Worthing the captain is the soul selector of the team, so perhaps this should now change and the responsibility be put on the shoulders of the comittee as pehaps my morals could cost Worthing the one day championship.
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Post by Owners' Account on Mar 3, 2007 17:40:24 GMT
I feel I would like to add to the discussion one last time, and indeed make this the last time I add to a discussion about anything relevant to Bar Billiards.
I agree that each inter-league teams have the right to choose what players they see fit, indeed that’s the idea. For example Brighton A should represent the best collection of seven players in Brighton, and Brighton B should represent the next 7 players in Brighton. When I talk about team loyalty, I am not referring to keeping to the same team just for the sake of staying the same team. In inter-league that is wrong, and something I have come out against in the past as I know of some B and C teams who stay together just because they feel they are a team, and forget that they are meant to represent the best collection of players registered in that league.
Some captains need to be reminded of that.
When I speak about team loyalty, I’m talking about the switching of players who don’t really play for that league.
I think the rules are indeed very confusing. If it were left to me, the 3 one day divisions would simply be a copy of the three H&A divisions, with the same players playing. That solves the issue and ends all this. The shuffling of players in teams in my opinion should happen at the beginning of the year, not half way through the year. That just makes more sense to me, but then that may just be me and my opinions. Also some rule needs to be made with regards how many games a player needs to play in the league to be considered eligible for that league.
The way it stands at the moment, we might as well just elect a captain for each one day inter-league team, have all the other players stand in a line on the day while each captain takes it in turns to pick players until all the teams are filled. If one day inter-league is indeed an open competition, then while bother with naming the teams after the various leagues in Sussex.
To round up, I believe the one day’s should simply copy the home and away format with respect to what divisions are played in. I believe the teams should be the same as they are, and all change of players should happened before the start of the season, so we don’t get this situation that happened with Michelle again, where players are simply drafted in to give a better chance on the one day games.
I agree with much of what Alan says, and echo his words of how players tend to bend rules, which is there prerogative (but considered by myself personally to be pathetic), but of course not in the spirit of the game. I’ve always believed that the game of Bar Billiards needs it’s spirit, or closeness if you will in order to survive. When people come in and it’s clear what they are doing, it creates a great deal of un-rest, and does not fit in well with the spirit of which Bar Billiards should in my opinion be played. This is not the only incident, there have been a few things this year that have happened that I just find amusing, purely because it’s people doing everything that can just to get a slightly bigger edge, and what’s worse that things like this have happened this year which HAVE broken league rules yet nothing is done about it, and from players who you would imagine just don’t need that kind of advantage. That’s why I strongly objected to what had happened with Littlehampton, and It would be the same if the situation happened with any other team…..
Just not Cricket if you ask me.
In the words of another famous cartoon character…
That’s all folks…..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2007 22:35:53 GMT
I hope you will forgive me Glenn for disagreeing with you on one humungus point, I know you wanted to bow out with that masterpiece and I appreciate your sentiment and passion for the game.
But further discussions took place today around and as an aside to the games, and certain things became apparent that may not have been before.
The first one is the answer to my question as to why an extra team could not have been accomodated into today's event, and the answer is that the second division has six teams and as a result only five single frames for each frames is possible (else the competition would drag on into the night). At least with five teams we all got four doubles - eight frames of bar billiards each.
The second point, where before I would have agreed with you that the one-day should copy the home and away competition with the same divisions and promotion/relegations and the same players, I have now had a good answer as to why not this should be so. And it is to accomodate the eleven leagues who take part to all have a showpiece side once a year in the primary or secondary section. As Mario says, if we made it the same as the other Interleague, after a few years Div One might consist of Brighton and Worthing A, Brighton and Worthing B and A.N.Other. Which let's face it, wouldn't make for a very good competition and would take all of the gloss off it for the other leagues in Sussex whose feelings are all too often overlooked.
So that's about it, really, vive la difference ! and I am at last convinced that the current way is virtually impossible to improve on and don't mind admitting that my previous criticisms were unfounded.
Stll think 'Chelle should have played though. ;D
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Post by hon Vice President on Mar 20, 2007 21:05:59 GMT
::) :-[ :-X
Laws!
Given what has gone before, it is no surprise that the chaps and chapesses of West Sussex abandoned the home and away as being "A bloody long way to go to lose a game on a Sunday evening" :)
Or words to that effect.
Mind you, if a home and away team was a pre-requisite; we'd be stuffed, as Mark James pointed out.
We enter the one-dayer, but I can assure you that those who attend on the day CHOOSE to play: And we ask for volunteers - there is no presure upon those who top the rankings to attend. If we DID insist upon those at the top of our rankings representing West Sussex, then our "Shared" colleagues from Littlehampton (And in some cases Worthing) would be placed in an impossible situation. Not all of our top players are interested in spending an entire Sunday playing the game; though at the same time we are not interested in sending a side to the competition that will simply make up the numbers.
The one-day event is treated as being a day out. Challenging, yes, but sociable and fun first & foremost. Anyone who knows Keith Mouncher, current one-day captain will understand this.
One final point. We could never field our strongest side. Currently, the two players who top the individual rankings for this season represent Littlehampton in both the home & away, and one day events. Three more occupy places six, nine and twelve.
Sort that little lot out then. ???
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