"OFF THE SPOT" OPEN

[SirKT]

Hi everyone
I was approached at the Sussex open the other week about how I felt if one of the Opens was played Off the Spot.
My answer to that was "I`d love it".
Those of you that were playing about 15 or so years ago, will remember the NBBA singles competition, sponsored by Bar Billiards ltd, which was held annually, wherever the AE base was, ie: Harwell, Reading etc.
Certain factions in the game, decided that it was time for a change, for whatever reason I don`t know ???, so they changed to the Alternative rules open, thus ruining a fantastic competition, which was always well supported by the top players. Some areas had to limit the amount of entries they could put in as there might have been too many.
I remember having to have an area competition in Oxon, just to get in the NBBA one.
I have a long standing arguement with the AE association about the use of the fantastic trophy that was donated by BB Ltd for the NBBA competition, which they carried on using and changed it to the Alternative rules open. This is a totally different game and should have had a new trophy made especially for it.

Anyway, I will be putting together a small questionaire which I will bring with me on sunday to the Kent open. If there is enough positive response, then perhaps one of the County opens might want to change to Off the Spot, you never know :o

If you are not attending this weekend, then perhaps you can make your comments on the forum.

My liege,
A national Open Singles was mooted a couple of years ago (and I think the discussion thread still exists somewhere).

Firstly let me say that I don't think there will be much support for changing any of our fabulous County Opens from their current format.

Also, that it would be a shame to replace the Alternative Rules, a competition which many people enjoy (although my own personal view is that it should be "4-pin" rather than "Triangles".) I do however take your point that the Alternative Rules should morally have its own trophy rather than keep using the one donated for a different purpose by BB Ltd.

Now the positives.
My initial reaction is that we have a chance here of killing two birds with one stone.

I'm sure Surrey/the Redhill League would be willing to stage a National Off-the-spot Singles the day before the BIOC Ladies - which we already host for the AEBBA.

For the last couple of years we have been padding out our calendar with a competition called the 'Redhill Blind Pairs' - which doesn't really need to be staged on the AEBBA Competition Set of tables (but it would have been a shame to waste them as part of the weekend hire).

We have found what we think is a better venue at which to hold the BIOC Ladies next year, and plan to move it to Salfords Social Club (near Horley) which offers a larger playing area. It would seem expedient to stage both national competitions over one weekend at this new venue (we're talking 9th/10th April).

Better add that these are only my personal thoughts, I haven't discussed it with any of the Redhill committee yet, though there are those who regularly look into the forum, will read this, and no doubt give their reactions ! ;)

tommo

Bump ! * BRITISH OFF-THE-SPOT OPEN. *

Come on, let's have some feedback now on KT's proposal. :)

I've run this past Gary Powell and he agrees in principle. We have in mind a limit to the first 80 entrants (competition would be held on 8 tables).

I'm sure we could sort something out regarding the trophy: maybe fund a new 'Alternative Rules' trophy out of the entry money if the original BB-Ltd one can be returned and re-dedicated.

If people think we have a 'goer' we can put this to the Redhill AGM next month, and then all it will need is AEBBA sanctioning this December.

[BB Warrior]

Sounds like a great idea to me...... 8-)

[Chris_Sav]

Jun 29, 2010 11:57:28 GMT SirKT said:

so they changed to the Alternative rules open, thus ruining a fantastic competition, which was always well supported by the top players. Some areas had to limit the amount of entries they could put in as there might have been too many.

Twaddle Kevin, though I agree about the trophy re-use. many competitions were overflowing with players fifteen years ago. How many leagues have contracted and died in that period, some but not all of which was caused by lesser players not having a chance on match nights.


The alternate rule had about fifty entries this year, many from those who are fed-up with being KT (or many others) fodder to stand there whilst top players thrashed them [edit - comment removed]. That does not happen at triangles where all have a chance.

Tommo's suggestion is a good one if Surrey have a spare day, but don't denegrate a competition enjoyed by many.

Sav

[SirKT]

Thanks Tommo, great idea for the BIOC Ladies weekend. Let`s hope we get some positive feedback.
As for designing a new trophy for the Alternative rules open, I know just the chap ;D ;) (By the way, I wasn`t suggesting replacing the Alternative rules competition, just the trophy)
We have to wait now and see if the AE Association will agree.

[Chris_Sav]

Jun 29, 2010 17:55:45 GMT SirKT said:

As for designing a new trophy for the Alternative rules open, I know just the chap ;D ;) (By the way, I wasn`t suggesting replacing the Alternative rules competition, just the trophy)
We have to wait now and see if the AE Association will agree.

Shame this did not happen a year ago before I sold the other superb former NBBA trophy that paid for one of the tables my league bought


Sav

[SirKT]

I wasn`t Sav, if I felt that strongly about the Alternative rules, I wouldn`t play in it. If you check the records, I think you`ll find i`ve only missed one since it changed.
I`ll make it a bit clearer for you. I love Bar Billiards and I will enter most competitions, the harder the challenge, the better.
You have to agree that the NBBA competition was one of the best around and it was brilliant practice for the BIOC championships in Jersey. There are no triangles on the Jersey tables, therefore, if you want to split in the Off the Spot game, it doesn`t exist in the current climate.
One of the greatest O.T.S. players in Jim Millward stopped entering the revamped Alternative rules, stating a fantastic competition had been lost.
My beef has always been about the use of the trophy, nothing else.
I think we should run both competitions, full stop :)

[Chris]

Dear All

I don't have any answers here or offer any solutions. I would though want to put the following into the discussion.

I overheard a conversation at the Sussex Open regarding two good current players from Sussex. The facts were that one of the players was fed up with going out during the week and often he never got his cue out of the case as the table had been played out by a very good player. He is next year giving up he said.

He was not suggesting they should not win the game as a better player, but that it would have been good just to have a go, so he did not just turn up and get no go on the table and go home. His words why bother going out!!

This is always a difficult debate and in his words, at least if when his opponent had won the game and he got a go, that might be some satisfaction. Should we have just win / lose rather than high scores??

Questions ... Do players go for table playout due to Highest Scores, Highest Breaks Home and Away??

For me I relish the day I beat Mr CN and KT so will always strive to do so, in my dreams or not.

However I can understand that we need to build capacity and sustainability. Kent I am told has. Can we emmulate this ? Why have they?

It should be considered that wthout all players of all abilities there will not be so many competitions.

One of my personal favourite days that I have attended alongside the MId-Sussex was being invited by Oxford to join the Surrey Teams Day they had handicaps on players which did challenge the better players and allowed others to win.

Could this be looked at or would it not work?? as a one off competition. I am sure that Nigel could work something out, time given, to ensure a suitable individual handicap. ( KT's being 10k and mine 0 only kidding Kev)

Off the spot great idea and would help to support those players who goto Jersey, or could you have a handicap off the spot??

Chris

[milhouse]

I agree with having an Off-The-Spot Open, but i think it should be an additional tournament, rather than amending a current one.
I think when this was discussed a couple of years ago the biggest stumbling block was finding space for it in the calendar?

[BB Warrior]

Jul 1, 2010 9:36:34 GMT milhouse said:

I agree with having an Off-The-Spot Open, but i think it should be an additional tournament, rather than amending a current one.
I think when this was discussed a couple of years ago the biggest stumbling block was finding space for it in the calendar?

I agree entirely that it should be an additional tournament...... 8-) .... and hopefully Surrey may have provided a solution to fitting it into the calendar..... ;) ..... with nice timing to give us some off-the-spot practice before the Guernsey Open! 8-) 8-)

[MID]

Agreed it would be nice to have an additional tournament, and a fab practice for everyone before the Jersey Championship.

But one thing I would like you to bear in mind, we do already have a Open in April the Portsmouth Open, and in fact we have already booked the tables for wk end of 8th 9th & 10th April, with the Portsmouth Open being on the 10th. When we Orig restarted the Portsmouth (Mermaid) Open we did not have the Guernsey and Surrey Open in May, so to introduce another so close to a Open means extra cost to people when there is little enough money to go around as it is... Our Open is not a set wk end due to Easter changing each year so we try to now keep away from the Gurnsey/Surrey Open and Easter.

If another Open is going to be introduced please bear in mind when we do have existing Opens, Oxford Feb, Bournemouth March, Portsmouth April, Gurnsey & Surrey May, Sussex June, Kent July, Bucks Aug, Berks in Sept, Jersey Nov. As I said it would be a great practice for everyone going to Jersey in November so perhaps if a Off the Spot Opens is going to be introduced perhaps October is a better month to look at.

Any extra Open introduced near an existing Open will probably reduce numbers to other opens.

Good points Mary.

The only reason I said 9/10 April is that that was the equivalent weekend to the one this year when we (Surrey) staged the BIOC Ladies event and to us it would have been making better use of a 'free day' - just to get the restored competition back on the calendar.

As far as I know we haven't set that date in stone, it may be that we have the tables (we will be using the same Championship set) booked for a different weekend in April. No matter.

But now that you've suggested October, according to Gary that would be more convenient for us anyway a) for the reasons you've set out (congestion of fixtures) and b) as practice for Jersey rather than Guernsey.

Gary says that we are considering fitting in an extra weekend of bar billiards for Surrey anyway (so that we may continue the Blind Pairs) so maybe we'll keep the Blind Pairs for April (as it's a domestic competition we could hold it in the Limes) and then hold a special BIOC weekend for both a Singles Off-the-Spot Open and the BIOC Ladies at Salfords Social Club in October.

It delays the BIOC Ladies by 6 months, but apart from that, everyone's a winner. :D

The other thought that has occurred to me is
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What about Northants doing it ? An October Off-the-Spot Northants Open. What a prospect ! And I think they managed to find the Winners trophy which went missing for a number of years..........

[SirKT]

Some good ideas coming through, although October has already got 3 sundays with Billiards on and we have our Worthing Masters on one of the other weekends, so quite congested.
I`ve looked through this years` calendar and there was a 4 week gap between the Open Pairs and the Mermaid Open. Why not slot a competition in the middle? Or better still, if the Sussex open goes back to it`s usual slot on the 1st weekend in June and the Kent goes back to the 2nd weekend in July, there will be a 6 week gap there.
Northants would be a great option if it were possible.

[Chris_Sav]

One thing to consider is that it would mean another weekend gone for the brilliant little group that transport the tables around unpaid.

Sav.

[Sparky]

The Sussex Open dates have been at the mercy of the Roffey Club bookings as Darts Competitions have been taking our preferred dates and they book early and think I am right in saying the Brewery are sponsors, and the Club takes a lot over the bar too :-/

Maybe we could get our preferred dates if we were to book first ?!

[davejones]

I agree some great ideas coming through. In response to Sparky we should be able to organise a date for the Sussex open at the AGM on the 18th July and then book it soon afterwards

[MID]

I still think you need a four wk break between opens. Usually aim to collect our last entries at Bournemouth wk end (but still had to keep the date open for more entries after that date), then Surrey have collected entries at our open, this gives a nice cut off date in time to do the draw and work out times.

Another idea as the tables are in Reading perhaps someone is willing to run the comp from Reading, that saves on the drivers being needed. Just people to come and help set up and STAY and help put away...

As we were looking at 2011 for the Off the Spot Open, then perhaps the competitions can be looked at in Dec's AGM when all the Open dates are confirmed and to make sure there is a space in October maybe 2 wk ends before Jersey, then that way everyone would know when the Off the Spot Comp is. And perhaps if Dave Alder and gang were willing one of the comps could be moved to end of June time to fill in gap if there is a 6 wk break.

Another thought is if you did hold the Singles Off-the-Spot Open and the BIOC Ladies in Oct 2011 would Gary be willing to hold it in Reading, especially if another team could be found to go and help set up the tables for him?

[JB]

I book the date for the following years Sussex Open a year in advance so think thats early enough. Last year i booked the first weekend in June before the darts was booked. I then had a phone call asking to change it as there is a lot sponsorship money with the darts and the club would lose £1000's if they went elsewhere.

I have booked all dates for next year and at the moment the Sussex Open is booked for 5th June but who knows if this will change in the next couple of months. (Although im sure Mrs Sheard would like me to book the 2nd weekend lol)

As to another open being introduced im sure it would be well supported but i have reservations.
Personally i dont like the idea of moving dates e.g

Moving BIOC ladies to October.... thinks Worthing masters, worthing off the spot, brighton masters, brighton off the spot, bioc ladies, off the spot open, aebba ladies team,

Off the spot open to be in between open pairs and Portsmouth thinks.... sussex inter-league weekends - 2 weekends of either playing in or organising Sussex inter-leagues, following weekend Bournemouth then sussex open then portsmouth. I suppose that leaves 2 free weekends which for me personally would probably work out to be the 2 in 6 weekends Alan works.

Just personal thoughts but the date would have to be very carefully chosen. From a Sussex point of view, as many of you know, it's already really difficult fitting all our inter-league matches and competitions in to try to avoid opens etc.

Sorry KT, but you can't eat your cake and then have it ! ;D
Mary made a very valid point about April/May being too congested. open-wise and I think we should listen.

If you want the new competition, you may have to make the sacrifice of rearranging one of your Worthing weekends in October !

Sav's point is valid too about relying too much on the good nature of the table-hire team: Surrey's latest proposal was to move our April weekend to October (having our Blind Pairs at the Limes which has two tables) which would not involve an extra hire.

As with the BIOC Ladies we are only the incumbent organising county - it doesn't have to be us every year. We could start this one off for you, and then maybe Northants could take it over a year later if they felt so inclined.

tommo

[Sparky]

You are absolutely right Jean and I did not mean to infer you were slow in booking as I know better than anyone about your efforts and the run around we have had with the Roffey dates, and may well have again (as you rightly say).

[MID]

Also to bear in mind, as I know too well, the tables are also hired out for finals and May and June are very busy months for delivery, Wallingford, Witney, Oxford, Surrey Open, Sussex Open, Readings finals and Highwycombe.

And as Tommo said moving Comps around would not be adding a extra delivery, and as there is over a year to sort out dates perhaps Worthing/Brighton would be willing to alter a few of there dates to help in the addition of the proposed Open.

One thing I would hate to see the Alternative Rules comp stopped as I see this comp as a leveller, and know I would be very unlucky to have someone play the table out on me. :-)

[NigelS]

We are very lucky to have so many opens on the go at moment so that the main hurdle of staging an off the spot open is fitting it in. I remember only a few years ago we had only 3 opens al year.

It would be great to have an off the spot national championship, it is a great version of the game requiring a lot of skill. all the ideas for dates have their merits and pitfalls. I think winter dates are a bit troublesome as certainly in Sussex we have interleague, and masters competitions at those times. Perhaps a summer date would be better as there is less going on

How about tagging it on to the over 50's/ 60's which now takes place in July - maybe hold that on the Saturday and hold the off the spot on the Sunday. Maybe a county would be willing to take it on to relieve some of the tourmnament organising from Dave Alder. Or maybe a similar idea with the mixed pairs in August - Portsmouth used to run this for many years.

These are all toughts at the mo, but would be good to keep this discussion going until the AGM where maybe something could be put in place for 2011

[JB]

I was just using Worthing and Brighton as examples (as i play in both and therefore know the problems of dates being arranged) of how difficult it is for any leagues to start re-organising. Theres many more leagues within Sussex i could have mentioned but im sure other Counties must have the same problems sorting dates out.

As i said just my personal opinion but i know i have stopped going to some Opens (and i know others who have) just because theres now so many weekends taken up with bar billiards. (And sometimes i have to do housework things like ironing lol or not)

Not so sure I like the idea of yet another tournament held at Reading, not one of my favourite journeys.........

There's opposition now along the lines of 'please, not another Open' and I too will have to limit the number of ones I enter from now on. But I think KT's idea is for this new competition is that it would be a very prestigious one, so not 'just another Open'.

It will be interesting to see what others think in their responses to KT's questionnaire.

[SirKT]

I agree congestion is a problem and I think my second idea of an end of June competition in the 6 week gap is probably favourite.
I would also be glad to organise and run this competition so we can get it back on the calendar ;D
I will be putting a motion forward at the Sussex AGM about having a Sussex Ladies open, also in the summer, as I feel there aren`t enough competitions for the Ladies. I have a very good venue in mind and perhaps this could be linked with the Off the Spot open on the same weekend :P
Mary`s idea of moving another one of the October competitions forward, freeing up a date just before Jersey is also a good one,
but this means it will have to be in Reading.

Yeah, I'll go with that. End of June doesn't impinge too much on people's holidays, Aug/Sep being the months to be avoided.

Let's let KT have his wings to make this new tournament a flyer. And the Surrey offer can remain on the backburner should there be any problems one year.

[MID]

As I have already said:

'Also to bear in mind, as I know too well, the tables are also hired out for finals and May and June are very busy months for delivery, Wallingford, Witney, Oxford, Surrey Open, Sussex Open, Readings finals and Highwycombe.' This does not inc Kent Open first wk end of July!

Do you think its fare to ask of another week end away from family/work fall on Dave and Simon's shoulders during the busy time. The reason for me saying to run the comp from Reading is its fairly central and the tables are there. I know the pressures that can arise from alot of deliveries over a short period of time.

Also can I point out when Brian and Tony delivered the tables it did mean having to use up holiday time for some of the deliveries, and I expect that will be the same with Dave and Simon.

So on the delivery side of things, poss would be better to tag on to the Redhill Ladies event but not in April...

And just looking at the AE comps there seems to be none at all in November so perhaps one of the Comps can be put on again in November to enable a pre-Jersey practice.

Jul 2, 2010 10:21:14 GMT MID said:

Do you think its fair to ask of another week end away from family/work fall on Dave and Simon's shoulders during the busy time. The reason for me saying to run the comp from Reading is its fairly central and the tables are there. I know the pressures that can arise from alot of deliveries over a short period of time.

Also can I point out when Brian and Tony delivered the tables it did mean having to use up holiday time for some of the deliveries, and I expect that will be the same with Dave and Simon.

But the whole benefit of holding it in Sussex would mean that the local operator (Tarratt)'s could be used.

Tarratts might even be willing to sponsor the competition, they used to in the past when it was NBBL.

As it's off-the-spot it does not seem imperative that AEBBA's championship set of tables would have to be used for such a competition.

[MID]

I dont know how many tables Tarrent actually have as the last few years Jean has hired some of the Championship tables.