Table Conditions

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

So following on from my earlier comments........!

Table conditions, after playing on the Plough table, which could only be described as disgraceful, and the subsequent comments and conversation afterwards, I decided in my foolishness to open a can of worms!!!! ::)

No disrespect to the lads at the Plough but to leave a table in that condition for two incoming teams to play on in a cup match is nothing short of rubbish!!!! Don't get me wrong, it was clean and brushed, those are not the 'conditions' I refer to! I almost understand the 'set up' for split shots, I.E slightly up hill and slightly right, but this was way uphill and so far right any gentle attempt up the table resulted in the cue ball missing object ball by at least half a balls width!!!! Is this the result of 'over setting' the top or just plain 'bad setup'?

Again after hearing CKRBL complain for the second time in week about the Watermill top, and comments and conversations with the ten players during and after our match at the Plough is not time that the league adopted a formal 'standard' of playing top going a few steps further than merely providing clean balls etc...!

Believe me I am no expert in such matters but surely we all want to compete on a level playing field instead of attempts to bring good players down a level surely it is better for all concerned for those so call bad players to raise their game to compete and to do so on a good, flat, clean table?

I'm not talking about us all having identical tables or trying to cure all the quirks on all the tables, but surely if they are at least all level then the onus is on the accuracy of the player and not the way the table rolls!

How we do this is I'm sure going to create quite a debate! To my mind the simplest way is for the visiting team to be able to roll a few balls up the table, prior to the draw being made, and any adjustments made there and then, as long as both teams agree there is adjustment to make, if they don't agree then the visiting team can refuse to play, or something along those lines!!!

I know in Horsham the visiting captain/team have to rate the table on a sliding scale of 1-5, 1 being fit for firewood and 5 being fit for a king to play on! I believe that there is a best table award at the end of each season as well!

The same format could be adopted here and taken further, using the scoring process 1-5 a best andworst table of the season award, coupled with an average acceptable score at end of season, teams on or below this average could have their table 'setup' by appointed people or committee members to the agreed formal standard! Continual falling below this score a kind of 3 strikes and out policy maybe, and the table should be booted out of the league.

Does this come across as though I'm ranting I hope not, my team won, but a good evening spoiled by a badly setup top is not my idea of enjoying this sport. and I believe detrimental to all the players involved.

Your Comments Please

[Colemanator]

I will say, that for years when we played at Barton our table was the best around, it consistently scored the highest points season after season, but there were players that could not 'play' it, even though it was 90% level, the secret was that the position it was in meant it could not be 'moved out the way' for any reason. That same table is now in another club and to be frank it's crap, it gets moved about, it never seems to be in the same spot, we've gone in and it's pushed up against a wall etc. My point is that if we adopted a points score for the table 1-5 there will always be somebody who doesn't like it even if every body else score heavily. we do not have practice before a game, but i do agree that the away team should be able to roll some balls up to assess the uphill/downhill, left to right drifts prior to a game.

Have just read your post Jock, and showed it to Margo, and she did say that the Plough landlady mentioned at the end of the evening that they had had the roaring fire on earlier in the day.
That being the case, one side of the table gets heated up and not the other, which is the problem you always get at the Plough. I don't think the team set out deliberately to have the table play bad, and I would say the landlord is one of the better ones who has the interest of the game at heart.

The other table criticised as a neutral venue for the team cup this week - again strangely by the winning team - was my own (Handcross) - which like you at the Brewers I try to keep true and fair but I can't be there all the time.

I do however agree wholeheartedly with you that the general standard of tables in our league is not good, and a rating system is a good idea and has been tried before, with success.

I agree also that it is holding good players back: look down last year's player list in Mid Sussex and 18 of the top 20 had average of less than 4k. And yet all of these players are capable of getting a five figure score and of holding their own in county-organised competitions or Opens.

All we can do is be vigilant at the start of the match and insist on testing balls beforehand if the table is a bit 'sus'. I did this recently at the St Francis, where their (stand-in) captain tried to shrug off a full-ball roll to the left with the comment "well it's the same for both teams". He took me up on my offer to straighten the table and it took THREE full turns of the nearside rear to make it true (took all of 15 seconds !) and the match went ahead.

I believe the BB Reaper complained about the condition of the White Horse table last season, and something was done about it. It needs more people like this who are bold enough to put in an official complaint before the situation will be made any better.

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Excellent points from both of you, and I apologize sincerely to the Plough if it reads I believe that the table conditions were in any way deliberate! I certainly don't, I just found it very disappointing that players of the caliber of the plough would provide a table so far out of 'true'. I understand the difficulties in the positioning of the table, many of you may well have observed me ranting at the landlord of the Brewers regarding the movement of ours!!! On more than one occasion and, he finally seems to agree and has not moved it since the last rant!!

Again not an expert on these things but would the heat from the fire 'warp' a solid slate bed, or is it more to do with the heat affecting the speed of the cloth??? Dragging a comparatively cold ball into the warmer area of the table????

The main problem with our table is, and those of you whom have had the dubious pleasure of visiting The Brewers will understand, is that people lean against it whilst watching football, rugby etc......! So it is constantly being nudged in the wrong direction, steps are being taken to rectify this!

Yeah I remember you telling me tommo about the St Francis thing, and good for you. Is there actually a ruling that allows the visitors to 'roll' a couple of balls up table or is this more of a discretionary/gentlemanly happening. More to the point does anyone give enough of a shit to do it, whilst most are just shrugging it off with the tried and tested to death, "it's the same for both teams", I believe this is ruining the game, it appears not enough people in our league care! I know that I shall certainly be doing it from now on!!! Unless of course there is a rule that says I can't in which case that needs to be changed. Not good on the rules as I don't have a hard copy right here in front of me.

What I think should happen is that the table be provided in a clean and brushed condition, with clean balls in the tray to allow the opposition captain/team to roll some of the balls up the table, if they CHOOSE to. This should NOT under any circumstance be used as an opportunity to 'practice' the break shot or whatever. And if there are any adjustments the two captains should discuss this prior to the draw!!

If this is not in the rules, then it should be or something like it, idea's please?

Perhaps the teams would adopt it as an unwritten code of practice?

Comments Please

It's not the slate, mate. Tables are wood and wood expands and contracts. And the rubber inside the cushions and in the channels is subject to atmospheric conditions. Notice after a wet spell everything becomes a bit sticky, you get stuff sticking to the balls ?
Rubber deteriorates (it is vulcanised at the time of manufacture) and it hardens over the years - hence dead cushions.
Heating one side of the table expands the wood on that side which will make the shots react differently to the unheated other side.
It is not a bad thing to have a radiator at the back of the table, which will make the rear cushion lively (ie the balls will react better). This I have found out first-hand from playing from the Queens Head Bolney and the Prince of Wales Reigate which both had a dead back cushion because the table was backed up to a draughty window.

I may be talking complete bollox, of course, but at least (if so) you and I have prompted a 'heated debate'.

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Sounds like bowlax, smells like bowlax, might just be bowlax!!!

No, good point tommo, somehow I just knew you'd come up with the science!!!

Again it would have had to be some scary contraction/expansion to cause the conditions that we all played on Wednesday. Should we have altered the table after first match do you think, or is that breaking yet another unwritten rule of interfering with other teams tables?

Good questions, my caledonian chum. ;)

The protocol - the rules I believe provision for alteration to the table before the start of the second game by mutual agreement between the captains. If it's not done by then the match proceeds to its conclusion. If it cures it, all well and good. If it doesn't, play can be halted and report submitted to the committee by both teams.

In the case in point, your captain (Andy) did not give any hint to me that he was dissatisfied, and it did not occur to me that it was that bad - as I have said, I've played on a lot worse !

You mentioned that it was playing uphill and violently to the right.
I agree that it did shoot away alarmingly in places, but the roll wasn't consistent. Playing on it was like trying to hold a tray of water still, and I'm not sure that trying to level it quickly would have helped - we might have made it worse ! Needs all the legs winding back down and starting again from scratch.

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Fair comment my sheepish friend!!!

Andy may well be one of the 'its the same for both teams' brigade! I'm not trying to harp on about just one individual table, it just seems that more and more often the quality of the 'setup' seems to be getting worse in general around the league and perhaps its time to take a long hard look at how we approach 'poor' table conditions?

Most players ultimately will struggle as they are constantly playing on tables that are 'poorly' setup and then get no where when they go to a table that is 'well' setup. Will they then find that they can only play well when the table is rubbish? If that makes any sense!!

I'm gonna discuss it with sparky and mother hall my fellow committee members tonight, whom both played that table on the same night, and see how we address the general poor table conditions problem at committee level.

Anyway time for my first coffee of the day and it is Sunday morning after all!!!!

Okay, agree that discussion of the problem at committee level cannot harm.

Worth bearing in mind, though, that part of the problem could lie in Mid Sussex tables only being played on once a fortnight. The Brewers and Hurst being exceptions, as both venues have A and B teams. CKRBL is used another league night, as is Handcross, but there are instances when the fixtures fall to give consecutive league nights - then nothing for a fortnight.

So we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much - the other tables we hear about which are set up for fantastic scores, like the Nelson, the Brewery Tap, the Roffey Club, the Three Horseshoes, the Windmill - have A and B teams and are therefore constantly being played.

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Yep good point!

[TIR]

Some good points but there is only so much you can do - they are in pubs after all.

Our table at the greyhound is covered in glass marks and scratches as the bar it is in is often full of teenagers or at weekend families with out of control children.

It also has windows on two sides which means that the speed varies with the weather but it still plays pretty well with friendly practice games usually having aggreate scores of over 10000.

Maybe some tables are more resiliant than others.

However there there is no excuse for a table not being reasonably level with clean balls and pockets.

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

I agree Trev and your table is a particularly good example of the conditions around it affecting it, but still managing good scores because its setup is good!

I believe the Greyhound had a new top last year ?

That's another thing, at the Windmill, Crawley (and other tables we've had as a home base) Tarratts would renovate the top every couple of years. Doesn't seem to happen so often in this day and age.

[iang]

tommo said:

It is not a bad thing to have a radiator at the back of the table, which will make the rear cushion lively (ie the balls will react better). This I have found out first-hand from playing from the Queens Head Bolney and the Prince of Wales Reigate which both had a dead back cushion because the table was backed up to a draughty window.

Tommo.
The Handcross table has a radiator behind it & last year we moved a large piece of wood stored between Radiator & Table & it did seem to make some difference, you might like to check out if it's turned on.
Also we found that if somebody bothered to light the log fire it was better. but most of the time there wasn't any one there to do it.
Ian.

[iang]

Jock.
quote from HDBBL rules don't know if same rule applies to MS.


"The Away Captain may satisfy himself on the level of the table and the duration of the first game (between 17 and 20 minutes); and should report any complaints verbally to the Home Captain and in writing to the League Secretary in accordance with Sussex County Bar Billiards Association Rule. The balls are to be left in the tray and the Away Captain may make trial shots to the top of the table without using the side cushions or striking another ball. Signing of the match scorecard is considered to constitute acceptance of the match result. Results will be accepted by email and an Excel version of the score card is available on request but the original cards should be kept by the captain in case of dispute."

[Chunky Monkey]

tommo said:

I believe the BB Reaper complained about the condition of the White Horse table last season, and something was done about it. It needs more people like this who are bold enough to put in an official complaint before the situation will be made any better.

Yes Tommo i did put a complaint in and it was discussed at a committee meeting, even tho i don't think they went there in person, but a letter was sent out to all the teams i believe? asking that tables were playable (or along them lines).
I must admit they did look at the table and was playable, especially when i played Q in the mens singles last year. I think i managed a 3500 break on it and a final score of about 6k.
But in saying that i have reason to believe it is back to its usual tricks again.

Regarding the Plough top, i have always said it is terrible and agree with Margo and Tommo that it is positioned too close to the fire place and so it will Never be a good top all the time it is positioned where it is.

iang said:

The Handcross table has a radiator behind it & last year we moved a large piece of wood stored between Radiator & Table & it did seem to make some difference, you might like to check out if it's turned on.
Also we found that if somebody bothered to light the log fire it was better. but most of the time there wasn't any one there to do it.
Ian.

Yes Ian, something happened last year while I was new to the captaincy which left an impression on me.

I had prepared the table for the Z v A 'derby match' and it was nice and true and clean and the first game of the evening was high-scoring but the table seemed to deteriorate and get very 'slow' as the match went on.

You pointed out to me afterwards, that when I had taken the table cover off, I had put it at the back of the table which had shut off the benefit of heat from the radiator. You live and learn, and the cover always goes elsewhere from now on !

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

iang said:

Jock.
quote from HDBBL rules don't know if same rule applies to MS.


"The Away Captain may satisfy himself on the level of the table and the duration of the first game (between 17 and 20 minutes); and should report any complaints verbally to the Home Captain and in writing to the League Secretary in accordance with Sussex County Bar Billiards Association Rule. The balls are to be left in the tray and the Away Captain may make trial shots to the top of the table without using the side cushions or striking another ball. Signing of the match scorecard is considered to constitute acceptance of the match result. Results will be accepted by email and an Excel version of the score card is available on request but the original cards should be kept by the captain in case of dispute."

Cheers Ian

will try to compare it to the hard copy I have of Mid Sussex rules, if I can find the bloody thing........!

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

tommo said:

I believe the Greyhound had a new top last year ?

That's another thing, at the Windmill, Crawley (and other tables we've had as a home base) Tarratts would renovate the top every couple of years. Doesn't seem to happen so often in this day and age.

Thats because its become too expensive for the relevant pub landlords to fork out for, we get a renovated top, and the table rent goes up!!!!

jock said:

Thats because its become too expensive for the relevant pub landlords to fork out for, we get a renovated top, and the table rent goes up!!!!

I do feel sorry for the pub landlords who must be losing considerable trade due to the smoking ban. It's nice for us non-smokers who can now go home without our clothes reeking of smoke, but I read in today's paper that the ban is beginning to bite. It will soon be the end of the traditional pub as we know it, which can only be bad news for bar billiards.

Some landlords are apparently even considering alternative methods of bringing the punters in, such as hiring strippers ! ;D bring it on ! ;D

[iang]

jock said:

tommo said:

I believe the Greyhound had a new top last year ?

That's another thing, at the Windmill, Crawley (and other tables we've had as a home base) Tarratts would renovate the top every couple of years. Doesn't seem to happen so often in this day and age.

The Handcross top & cushions were done last season & the Plough top was removed during the summer & recovered before the beginning of this season !!!!!!!!!.
It needs some TLC & I know that Mark wants a good table & takes pride in it. I think it's a lot to do with the fire.

iang said:

The Handcross top & cushions were done last season & the Plough top was removed during the summer & recovered before the beginning of this season !!!!!!!!!

Therein lies part of the problem : cushions on Tarratt tables. Oh how we laugh in disbelief at the way they 'throw' down the table, not usually apparent until the last shot for the 100 or 200.
I believe the technique they employ is to stretch it round in one go, pinching it at three stategic points to hammer a nail in. One side then throws down and the other cuts back.
Contrast that with Charlady's table, fitted with tender loving care by Mario: the cushions reacted perfectly on either side. O for one of Sav's tables to play on regularly in Sussex ! ;D

[BFG]

Hello from WSBBL

Must be winter kicking in! Table condition discussions ad all that sudden change in heat and cold would damage your wood too I am sure ;D

Thought i would paste in our rule for you...like the points idea!

The home captain must see that all balls are available for one member of the visiting team to test the table and that the balls and pockets are clean. For the test only one ball may be used at a time, and the break shot and final shot must not be played. The visiting captain must either 1 Accept the table and lighting; 2 Arrange adjustments to be made to the table and/or lighting with the home team, so that they are acceptable; 3 Refuse to play the match whereupon the fixture secretary must be informed of the complaint in writing in two days.

If the table and lighting are accepted, or if the option to test the table is not exercised, the match must be played and the result will stand whatever subsequent complaint may ensue.

[Sparky]

Thanks BFG it is good to see the way others deal with it :)

[Q]

Sounds pretty sensible to me.....

West Sussex - Sensible - I must be getting old ;) ;D ;) ;D

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Bernie you'll never be 'old', over the hill, ready for the knackers, but never old my friend!!!

Thanks BFG great point and looks fairly sensible to me still hunting for my hard copy of mid sussex rules, some twat swiped mines of the pub notice board, sure I had a spare somewhere.

[iang]

Thanks BFG.

It would be difficult to adopt those rules when you are in a cup game situation on a neutral table as it would be inappropriate to adjust someone else's table as discussed on the Brighton Board.
The wording is different but the principal is the same. In the Horsham rule the line signing of the card is an acceptance of the match result. Means that you accept the playing conditions.

[rolly]

well i played on the plough table yeterday they said that it had been sorted ye maybe the roll has but for the break no chance absolute rubish so i took the consequence off losing with barely any score.

needs sorting again if u ask me xxxxxxxx

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Good point Ian but surely if the tables were 'sorted out' before hand and kept in a virtually continuous level state then there would be no issue with the top!

[BB Warrior]

Some interesting statistics (recently sent round to teams courtesy of the old fella) which I have used to work out the average scores on the tables in our League:-

Pos Team Av.Score (H) Av.Score (A) Game Average
1 Hurst B 4106 2705 6811
2 Hurst Club 3775 2953 6728
3 Greyhound 3801 1973 5774
4 Handcross Z 3060 2200 5260
5 Watermill A 2783 1787 4570
6 Brewers Bravos 1599 2579 4178
7 Brewers Droops 2173 1969 4142
8 Plough 2337 1711 4048
9 St Francis 2402 1543 3945
10 CKRBL 2258 1600 3858
11 White Horse 1436 2133 3569
12 Sportsman 1992 1534 3526
13 Windmill 1281 1960 3241
14 Watermill B 903 2156 3059

Overall Averages 2390 2057 4447

Obviously, pure statistics do NOT prove everything..... we all know that "good" tables have bad nights and vice versa, but these figures do show trends on a table over the season to date.

Figures include tonights match (White Horse v Brewers Droops) in which Sparky hit an excellent 5930 ;D and Andy F-W a very creditable 4870 for the away team! :)