county Opens

[bobhall]

Good evening all, this is just a quick note to say how disappointing it was today with how the opens are happening. i know it takes alot to organize but i feel that we are forgetting 1 important factor in this and that is the players. today i'm pretty sure there was no prize money for 1/4 finalist or semi finalist which is a shame as what is the harm in giving them  something even if it was just the entrance fee back.

And now on to an even more disgusting part which is happening more and more, people moan when players go home after losing in the first round. but why stay two people stayed today and made it to the final of the plate played and end up with a bottle of wine not even a trophy, this absolutely disgusts me and i feel if i lose in the 1st round i might as well go home as nothing to play for.

why cant we provide trophies for them? and if it was a mistake i hope they will be sent an apology for being forgotten and one sent to them.

Thats my point said i would love to hear what other people think on the situation

[milhouse]

Sept 9, 2012 21:35:29 GMT bobhall said:

Good evening all, this is just a quick note to say how disappointing it was today with how the opens are happening. i know it takes alot to organize but i feel that we are forgetting 1 important factor in this and that is the players. today i'm pretty sure there was no prize money for 1/4 finalist or semi finalist which is a shame as what is the harm in giving them  something even if it was just the entrance fee back.

And now on to an even more disgusting part which is happening more and more, people moan when players go home after losing in the first round. but why stay two people stayed today and made it to the final of the plate played and end up with a bottle of wine not even a trophy, this absolutely disgusts me and i feel if i lose in the 1st round i might as well go home as nothing to play for.

why cant we provide trophies for them? and if it was a mistake i hope they will be sent an apology for being forgotten and one sent to them.

Thats my point said i would love to hear what other people think on the situation

I agree that if there was no prize money for semi or quarter finalists, this is bad. Maybe it was a mistake?  Did you query this at the time and ask for an explanation?
But.... Phil Hawkins did say at the beginning of the day that there had been a mix-up with the trophies and there were no plate trophies present and they were going to go out and try to find some.

Sept 9, 2012 21:43:50 GMT milhouse said:

But.... Phil Hawkins did say at the beginning of the day that there had been a mix-up with the trophies and there were no plate trophies present and they were going to go out and try to find some.

I have to give Bob my full backing on this one. I'm afraid putting aside a bottle of wine from the Raffle as a way out of the situation is just not good enough. Richard Wooton (winner of the Plate) was insulted - as would I have been had it been me. He won a competition and his prize did not cover his entry fee ! Berks can't claim lack of funds, the entry of 80 was well up on last year (49).

This put a dampener on an otherwise enjoyable event.

[DA-DM]

Sept 9, 2012 21:35:29 GMT bobhall said:

Good evening all, this is just a quick note to say how disappointing it was today with how the opens are happening. i know it takes alot to organize but i feel that we are forgetting 1 important factor in this and that is the players. today i'm pretty sure there was no prize money for 1/4 finalist or semi finalist which is a shame as what is the harm in giving them  something even if it was just the entrance fee back.

And now on to an even more disgusting part which is happening more and more, people moan when players go home after losing in the first round. but why stay two people stayed today and made it to the final of the plate played and end up with a bottle of wine not even a trophy, this absolutely disgusts me and i feel if i lose in the 1st round i might as well go home as nothing to play for.

why cant we provide trophies for them? and if it was a mistake i hope they will be sent an apology for being forgotten and one sent to them.

Thats my point said i would love to hear what other people think on the situation

1) opens - plural ? it only happened today. Phil explained that he didn't know if there were any plate trophies as Dave Alder had gone on holiday. There was  prize money for semi finalists (very little admittedly) but not all opens give prizes OR money for quarters. Yes, there were a lot of trophies missing - I don't know how many there were or what they were for (i.e. highest break/furthest lady etc) but again - not all opens give trophies/prizes for all things.

2)Plate trophies - Phil said from the off there were non at present as Dave Alder seemed to have forgotten/overlooked these in his rushing off on holiday.

3)It doesn't take much to inform the admin desk that you are going and will not be playing in your plate game - I know someone who did this today but their name had not been crossed off and hence Phil had a go about players leaving and not telling the admin desk.

All in all, yes there were mistakes, yes people were upset at not getting trophies, yes this was explained before the start but NO it's not anyone's fault but the individual for not listening to start with.

[beefy]

How many people entered the plate.

Mayber the time has come to redraw the plate competition once you know how many you have if that many are going home. Dont know if this is practical but surely the schedule allows for the max games so simply bring times forward ?

Sept 9, 2012 22:25:48 GMT DA-DM said:

There was  prize money for semi finalists (very little admittedly) but not all opens give prizes OR money for quarters. Yes, there were a lot of trophies missing - I don't know how many there were or what they were for (i.e. highest break/furthest lady etc) but again - not all opens give trophies/prizes for all things.

Perhaps the time has come then to insist that ALL Opens display their list of Prizes in advance, exactly as the ones who take the trouble to provide a smart programme for the event do (ie. Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Oxon). Thus minimising the chance of nasty shocks.

[barbelman]

Sept 9, 2012 23:19:55 GMT beefy said:

How many people entered the plate.

Mayber the time has come to redraw the plate competition once you know how many you have if that many are going home. Dont know if this is practical but surely the schedule allows for the max games so simply bring times forward ?

Keith

That would be practically difficult as table schedules with just 8-10 tables are very tight anyway and the avoidance of some players playing on the same table twice would be almost impossible.

Nice idea though! ;)

Tony

Dave Ingram has asked me to put up the following statement with regard to yesterday's Berks Open:

"There was prize money for semi-final of the main competition, although it was less than most Opens (only £20) and there was nothing for the quarter-finals.  I don’t know if Rob was there at the start when Phil Hawkins announced that there had been “a mix up” with trophies for the Plate, but Phil did say that something would be sorted out.

Personally, I think that Phil did a good job running the Open considering that Dave Alder apparently dropped it in his lap at pretty much the last minute and the Admin Desk lady (Janet Burns?) did superbly to keep the competition moving and keep the results up to date.

Perhaps you would like to put the record straight…. and also thank them for their hard work today??"


I would like to add my personal thanks to Janet Burns for doing a phonearound to all competitors on Saturday to confirm our starting times.

[Chris_Sav]

As was stated earlier, Dave Alder took a short notice holiday, his first  time away in thirty years. It was not until the admin desk was set up thirty minutes before the start of the competition that it was realised that the plate trophies were missing. There was no chance to do anything about it and Phil explained and apologised for this at the start of the competition.

Dave Alder works tirelessly for the AEBBA, this open and all of these competitions. If those who find this disgusting cause him to jack his hand in over this OTT public criticism IMHO for one mistake then the rest of us level headed players will have a lot to criticise you for.

Re the plate there were a lot of no shows yesterday, some of which had not paid, this cocks up the day and the finances.

The Berks team worked miracles yesterday and I see little thanks for it. They could not get in the hall Saturday night due to a Reading party and that party prevented access to the hall until nearly 9 o'clock on Sunday. To get nine tables in, on their feet by 0920hrs and then levelled in just over thirty minutes was incredible. Personally I can hardly walk this morning.

Sav.

[milhouse]

Couldn't agree more with Sav's comments above!  Janet & Phil did a great job, along with the other helpers in Ron & Eileen, Sam and Sav himself (plus any others i have forgot, sorry!)

This thread started off as a discussion on a general topic, trends/attitudes/problems over awards given or not given for Plate competitions.

It has become sidetracked - as usual ::) - and degenerated into an argument over a specific Open.

There is a specific thread set aside for the 2012 Berks Open. Can we have comments relating to the running of this transferred, please, to where they belong ?

I am sure that there are some of us who wish to add plaudits, but are loth to do so at present for danger of posting in the wrong place.

[bobhall]

this is not the first time that they forget about trophies for players as it has happened to more than one person on 1 occasion what we need to remember is people wont enter these comps if things dont change.

[barbelman]

Sept 10, 2012 8:53:50 GMT tommo III said:

This thread started off as a discussion on a general topic, trends/attitudes/problems over awards given or not given for Plate competitions.

It has become sidetracked - as usual ::) - and degenerated into an argument over a specific Open.

There is a specific thread set aside for the 2012 Berks Open. Can we have comments relating to the running of this transferred, please, to where they belong ?

I am sure that there are some of us who wish to add plaudits, but are loth to do so at present for danger of posting in the wrong place.

Hi Tommo

It started as general comment on Opens by Bob and may be confusing if some threads are moved and some are not.  People are still free to put praise and observations under the Berks Open thread as well...

thanks
Tony

Hi Tony,

I know it's not really my place to comment on such things any more - for which I apologise - but I would stress the confusion that can be caused by running two separate threads on the same thing.

This is the third instance recently, the first concerning the Sussex Interleague where Jean, Kev etc have asked for an unravelling and the second concerning the massively important discussion on going 'members only' - which Sparky has offered to address, the danger with this one being the 'authorised' thread being in an obscure place.

I have transferred my own commments specific to play on the day to 'Berks Open Entry 2012' under 'County Opens' as per your suggestion.

thanks
tommo

[Chris]

Cannot comment re trophies as we left.

I would suggest that players investigate the costs of an open before judging. The table hire costs which are essential to maintain them ( to repay those that voluntarily put monies in to buy them which they are trying to do) + the van ( how long will that last)  and it's running costs v entries at £10 a very small amount against the running costs of any open with the cost of monetary prizes and trophies. The table recovering costs which Sav is doing, what would that be from a private supplier??? we are so lucky !!!

Most counties have the tables for two days just to break even by holding an in-house event the day before.

Certain tournaments are definitely supported more fully than others and this places a huge financial burden on those counties that don't get the entries.
Before even suggesting trophies are supplied to various levels, I suggest you ask for a breakdown of costings first.

When I enter a competition I do not play the plate, the only plate I play is Guernsey as I stay in the hotel and do what I want in between the wait, which can be up to 4 hours. I think this is a time now to consider a redraw in the plate for those competitors willing to stay. This will at least mean that they get a game, however they may play someone who has played on the table before as organisers would be faced with a nightmare..

Lastly but most importantly. I agree totally with TJ who said on another thread, Dave does a great job, for me he is inspirational, on his first holiday abroad ever and thoroughly deserves it, what help does he get from us, very little, no let's be honest NOTHING and where would any tournament be without him??  If we lost him, who would deliver the tables? without which we won't have any tournaments. If he throws his hands up tomorrow and says you all get on with it, what on earth will we all do?????????

You have a little star...... we all forget sometimes ..... DONT 

[JB]

Just to give people rough idea of costs a rough figure to run the Sussex open last year was
Table hire - £700
Trophies -£300
prize money - £570
Total £1570

Income from entry fees and raffle -£1300

Oops a loss already without additional costs of programms, raffle books, stationery etc. fortunately the organisers seem to forget about charging for these.

Without sponsorship from various Sussex leagues something would have to change. It cant be table hire so savings would have to be trophies and/or prize money.

The plate competition has always been a bit of a pain. Personally I don't think a redraw would be the answer. The plate cannot start until the first two rounds of the main competition.
The formats are all worked out beforehand to run normally on a really tight schedule.To start doing draws during the competition I think would be a nightmare for the organisers.
It would be impossible to work out tables and for this reason I think instead of people moaning about there opponent going home there would be as many if not more people moaning that there playing on a table there opponent had already played. Especially in a single leg game.

Not sure what the answer is.

[bigtj]

redraw for the plate would be a total no as far as I am concerned as the organisers would have no chance of keeping things running smoothly, and table selection a nightmare.

The only thing I would like to see is a bit of common sense and if not staying let the organiser know so they can at least let your opponent know the situation rather than wait a long time, and go to your table only to find no opponent, if you knew you could plan your day by the start times. Perhaps even let your next opponent know you are going??

My thanks at this stage to all those who have run events during the past season, I for one appreciate all your hard work, and know that their are many others who would agree with me, it is a thankless task.

Again, good to see discussion but for all sorts of reasons we only get feed back from a small minority. Appreciate those reasons, but for those who do not contribute please be aware of what Jean has shown as the costing of a very successful open, and the work these people have to do to balance the books.

[barbelman]

The plate is always a huge problem, especially when players can have a bye in the second round due to a no-show and quite rightly as the rules stand, expect to go into the plate when they lose in the third round :-/  We had a nightmare at the Oxfordshire this year.....  It makes the day too long, too stressful for the organisers and keeps players hanging around too long for what is essentially a bonus competition to give players another game for their ten quid.

How about a redraw for all players who wish to enter the plate - after the third round of the main - with a random draw for tables and the fact that players may have to play on the same table more than once publicised and circulated beforehand so that everyone knows where they stand.  At the moment the early rounds of the plate are often wasting valuable time in the schedule with only a small percentage of the tables being being used.

It may be that the ranking committee feel that this would devalue the points system for plate comps so some adjustment or removal of plate points would be necessary ???

Just a thought....

Tony

Just to add that the Berks was rather exceptional in that there was a 'group of death' in the bottom half of the Draw like no other I'd ever seen before.

Sometimes some of the top players are too disappointed to 'bother' with the Plate, especially after losing a really close match, and last Sunday was a good example.

Perhaps we should treat this as a 'one-off' and not attempt to change things just for the sake of it on this basis of this one event. Personally I thought the schedule went well, the raffle didn't drag on too long and we had a reasonable finish time.  

[JB]

I still think a redraw would be a nightmare for the organisers.
I will take last years Sussex Open as an example (slightly guessing the numbers as havent got the spreadsheet in front of me)

There should have been 48 in the plate. There was one dropout so we ended with 47.
Odd number which means the one person who gets the bye is in the same situation of not having a game.
First step - redraw the plate
Second Step - Draw the tables
Third step - Get it all entered on to spreadsheet and print out draw for people to see.
Not sure how long this would take but I think probably getting on for 20 mins - 1/2 hour (by which time at least one round of plate games could have been played).

With 47 in the plate you would need a prelim of 15 games. With 12 tables there is always going to be a round where only 1/2 the tables are being used. At the moment some of these games are fitted in with the main competion so you are playing 2 single leg plate games at the same time as one round of double leg main competition.

This again would be a nightmare drawing tables making sure they are kept off the ones being played on in the main.
I dont think time is wasted in the schedule as even if some tables are not being used for that round,the time is still the same. It would be impossible to start bringing games in the main competition forward to fill these tables.

What the answer is I dont know but am sure someone can come up with a magic solution

The organisers are there from approx 8 in the morning until 10 at night and sometimes this is after a long day before. Not sure I could cope with the added stress of doing draws etc on the day.

[barbelman]

You right Jean, in that each one is different and it may cause MORE trouble than it saves.  I think we had a particularly difficult one in Oxon last year ::)  and we always get there in the end!

Just throwing ideas about... ;D

Tony

I'm convinced, and also impressed by this earlier comment, a very valid one:

Sept 13, 2012 23:30:01 GMT JB said:

It would be impossible to work out tables and for this reason I think instead of people moaning about there opponent going home there would be as many if not more people moaning that there playing on a table there opponent had already played. Especially in a single leg game.

[Chris]

Yes excellent point by Jean.

Being very honest though I don't want to play in the plate.

I truly understand the problems it causes by me saying this, I don't blame anyone for being miffed with me for not playing as they get a bye, I truly believe most players would want to play and not have a bye.

Not got an answer here.

[David.G]

WOW OH WOW!!!

It seems as though an explanation into the running of the Berks Open is needed. But where to start?? So much criticism and so little knowledge. An awful combitation at best >:(

I think it best I start with AUGUST 2011. My wife of 33 years planned without my knowledge, a holiday with my Aunt and Uncle. They booked the 2 weeks in Greece the following day.

NOVEMBER 2011. I booked all the competitions dates with Nobby(post office club) including Berks Open 9th September 2012.

MAY 2012. My wife tells me with happiness that a holiday has been booked for 4th September - 18th September 2012.

I now had to consider a replacement to run the Berks Open. Janet Burns has been with me on the desk at the Berks Open for a number of years and was the ideal choice.

August 20th 2012. I ordered the trophies for the Berks Open and arranged collection for 6th September. However it has become clear that I did not order PLATE trophies.

In the few weeks prior to the Berks Open the usual 'behind the scenes' organizing was well in hand.

payments and entries were dealt with as soon as received.
Access to the club arranged for 8am
Delivery of tables from Chris Saville arranged for 8am
Sam Alder, Dennis Atkins in place to set up tables along with a small number of helpers
Janet Burns given all info to help her on the day

My VERY FIRST HOLIDAY !!!EVER!!!

With everything arranged I left Gatwick on 4th September at 06.35 on time. I returned to Gatwick on 18th September at 13.05 on time.

I return to find that the whole bar billiard world is in chaos ??? I also find this thread started by bob hall >:(

I find nothing in this thread regarding the Berks Open financial loss over recent years. I had a conversation with a player of HIGH REGARD at the last Berks Open about the level of prize money available at this Open. In the past I tried to spread the award money to cover the quarter finalists. Meaning the amounts for winner and runner up was significantly less. It was suggested that prize money could be better if quarter finalist only had trophies.

The Berks Open has NO SPONSORS. This is the breakdown of the costs

£780 = 78 Entries
£181 = Raffle

£961 = Total Income

£468 = Table Hire
£50 = Club Hire
£50 = Raffle Prizes
£140 = Trophies
£250 = Prize Money

£958 = Total Expense

£3 = Balance

Add to that the cost of the wine that was purchased as prizes. Also the cost of PLATE trophies that I neglected to buy.

It all adds up to another FINANCIAL LOSS for the Berks Open. I may have to remove this one from the calender next year.

The criticism received here is unjust and deplorable. All those involved in the running of OPENS and other competitions should be openly applauded and gratitude shown by all players at all times. Those who criticize the most should try it themselves, that way they can receive all the criticism they feel they may deserve

I am to blame for the lack of trophies and accept full responsibility for that.

Perhaps for the next 33 years i'll stay at home :-X :(

[barbelman]

Hi Dave

Please take some comfort from the fact that there was far more support in that thread than criticism, as irritating  as the whole thing is for you.  Most people are very aware of the financial constraints on the game in general and Opens in particular, whereas others with less insight seem hellbent on destroying the Open tournaments one by one...

Hope you had a great (and richly deserved) holiday

Tony

Just a thought, Dave, and please don't take it the wrong way:

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the Berks Open should be 'easier' to stage than others in one respect: that the tables are already held in storage at the venue.

I know you are a man of principle and have made it clear that Berks are charged by the AEBBA for table hire, just like anyone else: but maybe there is a special case for Berks getting one table supplied for free (pay for 8 and install 9).

I don't think many people would object to that - a sort of 'special discount' - if it helped to balance the books.  

[milko]

Sept 20, 2012 14:41:39 GMT tommo III said:

Just a thought, Dave, and please don't take it the wrong way:

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the Berks Open should be 'easier' to stage than others in one respect: that the tables are already held in storage at the venue.

I know you are a man of principle and have made it clear that Berks are charged by the AEBBA for table hire, just like anyone else: but maybe there is a special case for Berks getting one table supplied for free (pay for 8 and install 9).

I don't think many people would object to that - a sort of 'special discount' - if it helped to balance the books.  

Strange that! I was thinking exactly the same-why should they be charged the same as everyone else ?

I'm sure that can be on the agenda at the next AGM.

Thanks Milko,

The P.O. Club Reading is after all the nearest thing bar billiards has to a 'spiritual home' and it would be tragic to lose the one 'Open' staged there off the calendar.

[colinm]

I am sorry that you have come back to this criticism Dave I trust you had a well deserved holiday!

As seems to be the case more and more people criticise but never step forward to actually help out.  If a few more of those that moan can step up and help out then things will be much better for us all as the only way people truly appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into these events is to have a go themselves.

I know I speak for all when I say that we all appreciate the hard work and dedication that you have shown to the Bar Billiard world and I hope that criticism from a few does nothing to put you off your continued resolve for the game.

[Chris]

Dave

Tony and Keith are right ( first time I have ever said that about Keith :-*)

Please look again, as so much support for you is on here.

You deserved your holiday, so so much.

You are totally respected for what you do, you are a SAINT !!!

Considering all you do I think that, like Clive and Keith there should be some consideration and would go further than one table. This should be an agenda item for the AEBBA but not sure what to propose.

Dave despite any negativity, ALL players applaud you and adore you, without you there would be no opens now.

I do hope that you and your wife had a wow time, I love Greece.

Love from us all x