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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 20:33:42 GMT
Totally disagree with everything you say about the trophies - sorry, Glenn !
Yes in another league I played in the champions were so used to winning year in year out that they asked to forego the trophies and the rest of us thought - arrogant tw*ts !
It's an insult to all the remaining teams who strove all season - only to come away empty-handed. And think of the poor League administrator (Secretary) who has taken the trouble to order them from the catalogue hoping to please everyone.
Winners should have the grace to accept the rewards for the competitions they enter. If not, don't enter and give someone else a chance !
And all this about saving the league money - just make the league a separate donation.
I think it was Ros who said trophies won are treasured for about a year - and then find their way upstairs to the loft - I'm of that ilk too, but everything I've ever won has always been appreciated.
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 11, 2012 21:40:56 GMT
Sorry Tommo I have to defend my point here, as I believe you have painted a picture of me and some friends that without some clarification could show us in a negative light.
Well as I mentioned in my post, we were asked if we would require trophies, it was an option that was pretty common in Brighton. It’s not like we went up to collect them on presentation night and said “Na, don’t bother, we’re so good we don’t need it”. That kind of behaviour would indeed be a disgrace. I would hate to think that anyone would think of myself, my departed mentor Gina, Bill Kerr or young Chris Reeves as arrogant tw*ts just because when given the option (and the preffered one at the time by the Secretary herself), we decided to save the league some money.
As I mentioned, we were given the option, the trophies were not ordered hence the money and work was saved.
We took the reward, the perpetual trophy and our name in the record books, to say nothing of that trophy to this day has my teams name on it. The trophy was displayed with pride as it was a great team effort and we “strove” very hard to get it. As for the small plastic momento that each team member gets, we didn’t need it, because I like you yourself have just stated am of the elk that they eventually find there way into the loft. I therefore see no reason to take one home if it saves the league some money.
And I would hate to think that either I personally, or a team I am a member of would not be welcome in a competition just because having the main winners trophy to display and our name in the record books along with the honor of winning is enough for us.
I have in the loft I kid you not about 30 odd trophies that I collected in 4 years of playing, yet apart from a couple of league and inter league successes, and 1 mixed doubles tournament, I have won very little. To me, that amount of trophies given out to me with only very limited success completely devalues what a trophy represents. All I’m saying is given the state of the game, is a trophy for something like “the Plate Semi Finalist” really necessary? If it is then fair enough, but in the spirit of this thread I would ask for the same privilege that everyone enjoys, in that my opinions are considered….
However that said, when I’ve won a “trophy” I have always received it gratefully and with humility, I would never do anything otherwise.
These are of course all my opinions, and as a lifelong possessor of minority opinions I don’t expect anything to change or my words to actually be considered. I’m sorry if my cost cutting proposals cause offence to anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2012 11:48:30 GMT
I must apologise, Glenn, for the tone of my message which was not intended as an attack on any actions taken by you and your team if ever you found fit to forego an award - that's your business. (If the truth be known it was posted following a particularly painful visit to the dentist !) :o
I am however still trying to fight for the cause of the 'underdog' - this thread was started to establish a point and everyone else has either glossed over it or skirted round it. ::)
Prizes for success in competitions can take form in all shapes and sizes, ranging from at the highest level the 2 weeks' holiday in Rio de Janeiro offered by sponsors Travtel in the early days of the Jersey/World Championships to the lowest level a small gilt medal in a plastic presentation case costing no more than a quid.
In 44 years of playing I must have well over 300 in the house somewhere - most of them intrinsically worthless apart from four crystal ones which have pride of place in a glass cabinet.... But each and every one of them is valued by me sentimentally as it represents a little bit of glory encapsulated in history.
I'm getting ready to finally give up the game competitively as the only 'buzz' I get nowadays is in playing normal league matches for a team, for a pub virtually on my own doorstep.....But I would ask you to consider all the youngsters in their first few years of tasting success who have fallen totally in love with the game. Don't deny them their proud moments, they need encouraging for the sake of the game's future.
Good point of yours though about trophies for Plate semi-finalists - that is stretching things a bit far ! ;)
tommo
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Post by Chris on Oct 12, 2012 16:23:42 GMT
In the Portsmouth league last winter the team I play for gave all their trophy money to the Rowans's hospice as did many other players, except we all also recognised the fabulous achievement of one of our really great players, who deserved a trophy for a particular competition, had I won that competition I would have wanted a trophy myself for it, as have never won it before. (Doubt I will but hey ho !!)
It's such a hard call.
How do you ensure that monies are used wisely? Ensure the younger players or those that have never won much or a particular competition are given what they so richly deserve when they win something?
I can think of lots of ways but none are particularly better than any other so won't go there, especially as I can see the flaws in them too.
Mary Daniels had the best idea for me and has said it many times, award certificates or maybe as Tommo said mini badges, with the perpetuals showing that you won the title. With certificates you can build up a folder that a) takes up little space b) allows you to reflect on the glory days c) costs little d) probably does not end up in the attic!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2012 17:19:39 GMT
A very balanced view offered by Chrissie there....
And Chrissie's county (Hants) have never been ones to scrimp on Trophies, and have actually held the most generous Raffle I have ever witnessed, which went on for well over half an hour !
The point for me -at league level anyway - is that a large proportion of the revenue comes from Entry Fees, The organising body then balances its budget and spends most of the revenue on trophies, engraving and other expenses such as table hire.
All players have contributed and then striven to win a token award (as already said, with a zero second-hand value). It is owed by the winners to the ones that have won diddley-squat to at least show that they appreciate and value their reward. How many times have I stood there on a Finals Night applauding - and thinking "that could have been me.....maybe next year"? Or even, "years ago that was me, enjoy your moment as much as I did".
It's symbolic, and part of our culture. 8-)
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Oct 12, 2012 18:03:08 GMT
A very balanced view offered by Chrissie there.... And Chrissie's county (Hants) have never been ones to scrimp on Trophies, and have actually held the most generous Raffle I have ever witnessed, which went on for well over half an hour ! The point for me -at league level anyway - is that a large proportion of the revenue comes from Entry Fees, The organising body then balances its budget and spends most of the revenue on trophies, engraving and other expenses such as table hire. All players have contributed and then striven to win a token award (as already said, with a zero second-hand value). It is owed by the winners to the ones that have won diddley-squat to at least show that they appreciate and value their reward. How many times have I stood there on a Finals Night applauding - and thinking "that could have been me.....maybe next year"? Or even, "years ago that was me, enjoy your moment as much as I did". It's symbolic, and part of our culture. 8-) Some of the old school players (secretly) return their small trophies the following year and are reused where appropriate by the league officers without anyones knowledge...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ::) but as a non profit making club we spend as much as our treasurer releases each year regs cs |
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Post by Chris on Oct 12, 2012 19:05:04 GMT
What a great idea!! Never thought of that one. Assume they are not dated then.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2012 19:35:42 GMT
Some of the old school players (secretly) return their small trophies the following year and are reused where appropriate by the league officers without anyones knowledge... regs cs Not the big ones though, eh ! Size counts in your neck of the woods. ::) ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by bigtj on Oct 13, 2012 6:42:08 GMT
I feel the players being given the choice to forgo a trophy is a good idea, and will obviously save leagues monies, but hope thayt some of the saving could be used to present slightly better trophies to the very people Tommo is talking about, those who do not win lots, and maybe play at a lower level, those new to the game winning their first trophy. This way the league would save, but those who are achieving something new get to receive a better momento.
I am of the view only winners and runners up trophies should be awarded at all levels, what does losing in a semi mean to most, a disappointment that probably is beat not remembered. As for plate competitions a winners trophy should suffice, it is nice to have these competitions for those taking an early exit, but surely we should only reward the winner.
In the days of many entries in the local league singles it may have been okay to spend on expensive trophies but with the demise in entries, league team fees most leagues only survive the season, and in fact without raising their fees, some only break even wiht the kind donations from sponsors of certain events. As we have seen the opens are a classic example of this, and lets be honest those people sponsor out of their love for the game, as we do not get large media coverage so that sponsor is only supporting the game with no intention of really getting anything back.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 11:02:22 GMT
Sensible view from Tony as ever, just a slight issue with this comment: I am of the view only winners and runners up trophies should be awarded at all levels, what does losing in a semi mean to most, a disappointment that probably is beat not remembered. As for plate competitions a winners trophy should suffice, it is nice to have these competitions for those taking an early exit, but surely we should only reward the winner. I am of the view that the rewards should reflect the scale of competition entered. For example, Jersey have always given a prize down as far as the Last Sixteen - it is after all the top event on the calendar. And Sussex give trophies down to the Last Eight - they are after all the Open with the biggest entry (anything up to 108). The Plate Runner-up would feel entitled to something as well for their efforts in getting through so many rounds. For an Open attracting fewer than 64 entries - and there have been some - it would not come as a shock to see prizes only awarded down so far as the semi-finalists in the Main and the Winner only in the Plate. |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Oct 13, 2012 11:09:42 GMT
Some of the old school players (secretly) return their small trophies the following year and are reused where appropriate by the league officers without any ones knowledge... regs cs Not the big ones though, eh ! Size counts in your neck of the woods. ::) ;D ;D ;D Hi tommo/chris, for fear of being moderated twice in a season i will limit my response to 18cm...neck size ::) Our smaller trophies are not all engraved and some engraving stickers are removed which means the high home and away breaks and highest losing scores trophies can be FOC a saving of say £20 which is reused to buy more expensive singles and doubles winners trophies. The whole system will change this season as we normally buy 40 trophies a season, but the league only has approx 20 members in 2013... a bit different for county comps though where a balance between self financing and quality trophies needs to be achieved... a thankless task :'(, the organizers will and should make their decisions with due diligence end of... regs cs |
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Post by BB Warrior on Oct 14, 2012 11:43:50 GMT
I can't help but feel that this thread had started to go away from the topic, until the final sentence of Gandalf's last post.... a bit different for county comps though where a balance between self financing and quality trophies needs to be achieved... a thankless task :'(, the organizers will and should make their decisions with due diligence end of... Surely, the things that we should be discussing are.... 1) How the organizers can successfully balance the books? 2) The expectations of the players taking part. 3) How we can move forward to enable a balance between these to be achieved to ensure that the County Opens can continue? Taking each one of these subjects in order.... 1) How the organizers can successfully balance the books?From the figures shown earlier in this thread, it seems obvious that most County Opens struggle to break even each year. The cost of table hire, trophies, prize money, programs, raffle prizes etc all have to come out of a limited budget based on the number of entries and the generosity (or otherwise) of the players in buying raffle tickets on the day.... and, in a few cases, some sponsorship towards the cost of the tables from either individuals or local Leagues. ;) Table Hire is obviously the biggest expense with most Opens running between 8 and 10 tables, I believe that the AEBBA currently charge about £52 per table meaning a cost of between £416-520 for these, trophy costs quoted here have ranged from £140 (Berks) to £300 (Sussex), prize money between £250 and £570 for the same competitions.... the costs obviously vary greatly here as there was a considerable variation in the prizes and trophies given, perhaps these are the "extremes" in the Opens overall with other Counties somewhere in between these? :-/ ??? The number of entries obviously varies as well from each Open which potentially makes it harder for the organizers to be consistent with other competitions, but generally over the last couple of years the entry levels have not changed dramatically in most Opens from one year to the next as shown below...
Open Variation 2012 2011 2010
from 2011
Oxon -4.2% 69 72 72
Surrey -3.6% 81 84 92
Sussex -14.8% 92 108 103
Kent 30.9% 89 68 66
Bucks 0.0% 78 78 63
Berks 61.2% 79 49 63
Total 6.3% 488 459 459
....but since the Opens with the larger entries usually hire more tables that income v expense equation often goes towards balancing these figures out so (potentially) more consistency in prize money and trophies could be achieved... if all of the other variables were similar as well. ::) 2) The expectations of the players taking part.It is already been agreed that players do not enter the Opens "for the money".... a vast majority seem to play for a mixture of the social aspect and the chance to take a scalp along the way! 8-) Looking at a typical cost for a player to enter an Open.... well, how much it usually costs me... Entry Fee of £10, fuel costs of £25, food £5, drinks £10, raffle tickets £5 comes to a total of £55 for the day, although I normally get a bit of that back as I usually take other people to the competition and they normally contribute towards the fuel costs which probably reduces that to about £40. 8-) I personally think that there should be prizes and trophies for Quarter-Finalists onwards in the main competition, the winner & runner-up in the Plate and the Highest Breaks by Men and Ladies on the day. I appreciate that not everybody is interested in having a trophy, but personally I think that acts as a better reminder of the day than a certificate and it is always nice to be given some reward and appreciation for playing well.... or being lucky on the day! ;D But I don't think that reducing the prize money (or the size of the individual trophies) would make a great deal of difference to the number of entries.... so perhaps £100 for the winner, £50 for the runner-up, £30 for each semi-finalist, £10 for quarter-finals, £20 for Plate Winner and £10 each for Plate Runner-up and High Break Winners could be given, meaning a total of £300 prize money plus the cost of trophies for these...?? 3) How we can move forward to enable a balance between these to be achieved to ensure that the County Opens can continue?Obviously, none of us can expect the Open competitions to continue and make losses year after year, much as we all love the game that would not be realistic. So how can we ensure that the game at national level continues at a time when many Leagues are losing players and venues...? :'( A) We can all encourage more players to enter the Open Competitions, especially their local Opens if they do not wish to travel to the others. Personally I think that it has been really encouraging to see some new faces at some of the Opens this year, especially some of the younger players that are now starting to take part regularly. 8-) We all know players (many of them very good players) in our local Leagues that don't take part in any of the Opens, often because they have other commitments at weekends but sometimes because they do not know about them.... ::) .... so I would ask the organizers to actively promote the Opens (email the entry forms out to the contacts that you have and ask them to send the forms onto other people as well), get the Entry Forms out early to give people plenty of time to talk to other players about it and for all Forum Members to make sure that people in their Teams and Leagues know about the Opens in advance. ;D If all of the regular players in the Opens could encourage one more player to enter an Open each year, the entries would go up by 10-15% overall..... :o ;D B) Do we need to increase the cost to enter an Open?The cost to enter has been £10 for (at least) the last 5 years, but we all know that the costs to run the competitions have increased over the same period. :'( Would it affect the level of entries if we increased the entry fees to £12 per player? ??? That would give a 20% increase in income automatically if entry levels stayed the same. :-/ C) Local MediaI know that the game receives some coverage in the local press in Sussex, but that does not seem to cover many of the Leagues and the Open and AEBBA Competitions are never mentioned..... ::) .... is there more that we can do to promote the game and the Opens in the press generally? :-/ D) SponsorshipI know that some Opens already receive some money in sponsorship, often from people within the game already who are ready and willing to support the competitions. I am sure that we are all very grateful and appreciative of this and I thank them for their generosity. 8-) But perhaps there are other Companies (local brewery? sports shops?) that would be willing to provide a bit of money towards the costs, especially if they would get some local publicity in the Media...? E) Help the OrganizersThere has often been criticism about a competition after it has finished, whether it was about poor tables, lack of trophies and prizes or shortage of scorers... we have all read the comments here on the Forum in the past, but the same people come back year after year and give up their time and effort to help run these competitions on our behalf. For that, they have my full admiration and appreciation.... thank you. 8-) Every year, the same (few) people turn up to help unload the tables when they arrive at the venue.... the same people help to set them up for the competition.... the same people run the Admin Desks.... the same people sell the raffle tickets (and the food and drinks at some venues).... the same people do a majority of the scoring during the games.... and the same help to take the tables down after the competition has finished. Even after that, the same people do all the work to update the Rankings and Results on the AEBBA Website. ::) But, we can ALL do much more to help them in the future. How much easier would it be for the organizers (and especially for Dave Alder who gives up so much of his own time to deliver and collect the tables.... HUGE THANK YOU to Dave! 8-)) if.... - A couple more people offered to help unload the tables when they arrive at each venue...?
- A couple of people helped to set them up? Even if you have never done that before, you can still help to clean the balls, brush and iron the tables.... and learn how to set up a table properly for yourself in the future! 8-)
- Offer to sell the raffle tickets.... or think of something different that can raise money on the day?
- Score games for your friends.... or anybody that you see who has not got a scorer, don't wait to be asked to do it and then try to hide when the organizers are looking for "volunteers". ::)
- Stay until the end of the day.... even if you did get knocked out early.... watch (and score! ;D) the games and then help to take the tables down after the competition has finished. If 4 or 5 people stay to help, it only takes about 20-30 minutes to dismantle all of the tables and get everything ready to be loaded on the van. 8-)
Rather than using this thread to complain about the things that we think are wrong with the Opens, let's come up with some constructive ideas about what we can do to make them better.... and ensure that they continue and get better in the future. ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2012 13:21:21 GMT
An admirable post with some interesting stats - and logical conclusions.
Positive thoughts and a fitting end to the discussion.
We should all take note and use this post as a reference point for the future.
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Post by Colemanator on Oct 14, 2012 17:18:50 GMT
Positive thoughts and a fitting end to the discussion. Thanks Tommo, does that mean that i can lock it now then? ;) ;D 8-) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2012 17:23:18 GMT
Positive thoughts and a fitting end to the discussion. Thanks Tommo, does that mean that i can lock it now then? ;) ;D 8-) Why not ? Now that we're finally back on topic. :) |
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 14, 2012 21:51:44 GMT
I would like to expand on a theme that Dave touched upon in his excellent post, and that is one of sponsorship. I hear constantly that sponsorship is very hard to obtain and that much of what we do get is largely down to “good will” so to speak. Well there is a simple reason for that. Sponsors want exposure. It is really that simple. And lets be fair we have very little in the game. To find a sponsor for say, the Sussex Open, we have very little to pitch to them with regards to what return they would get for there money. The same people show up pretty much year after year, the main advertising means are through this website and I’m sure the programme on the day. That’s no “mass” exposure at all. I firmly believe that we can increase the benefits for potential sponsors by implementing technology to increase exposure for the product (as I have gone into in depth in another thread in the General discussion board of which sadly very few people have commented on). Let’s say for example I was to set up a website purely for the Sussex Open and nothing else. Lets say www.sussexbarbilliardsopen.com which would cost approximately £50 to set up (domain name and website template included) and then £20 a year thereafter to maintain (at most, more likely £10). On it we could really do a job to advertise this single product. We could have a history of the event, pictures of all the winners, an in-depth report for each year (from here onwards) and dare I say it, a video of the final (hosted on youtube but embedded into the site, more on this in a moment). It could also be the place where you sign up and pay your monies for the next event. It would have a twitter feed also. Now, if such a resource existed, I could toddle along to a potential sponsor and lay down the following benefits not currently available for them in return for the money they invested… 1. You brand and logo will be plastered all over a .com website in a game with a very loyal player base in the south of England. 2. A video of the final (with your brand somewhere in view) will be forever kept on the site, and on youtube where over time, not only will it be viewed by the vast majority of Bar Billiards players in the country, but everyone else in the world who happens to click and watch. 3. Over time everyone who subscribes to the twitter feed will of course be reminded of your brand logo with each tweet that is posted. Now to me, that’s something that a local brewery or business might well be interested in investing in. It all comes down to exposure for our product which in turn brings new players and new benefits. I’m aware that we play a game with limited interest, but as I have been explaining recently, I feel we are not taking advantage of the internet explosion (especially with regards to mobile computing) currently taking place that could in turn revitalise our dying sport. This is just one example that surely we could try. I hope I’ve not moved the subject off topic, but that is one idea where we could potentially increase the revenue for an open. |
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 14, 2012 23:16:49 GMT
To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, click the sample below. This was created using a free service and took about 20 minutes to cobble together (I'll be deleting it soon though before it starts showing up in Google lol) glennsgreatsite.weebly.com/index.html |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2012 23:28:00 GMT
You're right that there is very little sponsorship in the game these days from outside firms, sponsorship more often than not nowadays comprising internal donations (eg - Redhill invite volunteers to 'sponsor a table'.
Many years ago Horsham used to run an out-of-season competition known as the King and Barnes Open Doubles, which attracted entries from other Leagues....it was particularly popular with Brighton, Chris Tupper and Colin Smith winning it five years on the trot. Anyway, it came out by someone putting me in touch with a representative of the local Brewery, a Mr David Mallard, and he came up with the proposal of £200 per year sponsorship in return for which all they expected back was the associated publicity, and the opportunity for their Director Mr Bill King to present the prizes, some really nice engraved clocks for the winners and runners-up. They also stood the cost of two impressive perpetual cups. This ran for many years, King and Barnes eventually being taken over by Hall and Woodhouse.
So it can be done. And the brewery used to be an obvious port of call.
Wind the clock back even further, and when local leagues started up in the 1940s and 50s, it was inevitably the brewery who stood the cost of many of the challenge cups - Whitbreads, Brickwoods, Watneys etc. Their names live on - why, there is a top-level competition still being competed for called the Watney Mann Cup.
Unfortunately many of these specialist brewers were swallowed up by large conglomerates and these operators have very little interest in helping out bar billiards to the extent of sharing a tiny proportion of their profits. I can state this as a fact, having written a very carefully worded letter round about the turn of the century and they did not even bother to reply.
I would suggest that we should begin a fresh drive for sponsorship, starting with the Watney Mann name being binned for that particular competition - they haven't sponsored it for donkey's years and there is no justification in keeping it. It could be offered to - I don't know - Harveys, John Smiths, Witherspoons, Wychwood - whoever we could get interested.
Our colleague in Japan who is trying to get together an Open in 2014/15 and sponsoring visitors from the UK to take part reckons the best advertisers are car manufacturers (he has all the main Japanese ones interested) so maybe that would be the next resource to try to tap.
You realise this won't get anywhere, though, Glenn, 99% of the bar billiards world are quite happy for bar billiards to remain a purely amateur sport. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2012 23:34:50 GMT
To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, click the sample below. This was created using a free service and took about 20 minutes to cobble together (I'll be deleting it soon though before it starts showing up in Google lol) glennsgreatsite.weebly.com/index.htmlI like the new website, by the way, Glenn. There's not enough of these about and another facility that can be used easily is FlickR where you can post photos of bar billiards activity. Do a google images search for bar billiards and a lot of Squire Richard's stuff comes up, and he's just an ad hoc visitor and doesn't play in a league himself. You've started something good. Please don't delete it ! ;D |
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