enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
|
Post by enzo on Nov 27, 2012 19:02:07 GMT
As a comparison, the total number of points scored in 2011 (from the same number of games) was 745,120.... so either the players or the tables have improved by 10% in the last year! 8-) Wow when you throw numbers like this around it does make our game sounds awesome :D It must be a few million in bigger comps :D Table Averages - Under 25's Table Matches Total Score Game Average High Score 5k+ 10k+ 15k+
1 3 44,740 7,457 11,010 0 1 0 2 4 45,870 5,734 8,660 2 0 0 3 2 22,000 5,500 6,050 2 0 0 4 2 37,120 9,280 15,060 2 0 1 5 3 33,010 5,502 7,840 2 0 0 6 2 37,730 9,443 11,760 2 1 0 7 3 36,880 6,147 11,630 1 1 0 8 3 22,080 3,680 2,890 0 0 0 9 1 14,810 7,405 8,160 1 0 0 Total 23 294,240 6,397 15,060 12 3 1 Is this right Dave?
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Nov 27, 2012 19:05:08 GMT
Also 16:30 is perfectly legal, why would I report this unless asked to? I will take note that they should be 17:15. Also it could have been the way me or my opponent pulled the bar. P.S. Table 9 ran 19+ minutes 17:15 is the target time allocated by KT and the AEBBA committee as per other threads on the tables you will hopefully have read, all clocks were set to run within ten seconds of this. Fully aware individual games can vary in legth and quality, that is why players and tournament organisers have been asked to report problems so that PATTERNS (not one-offs) can be spotted on a table, which is repeating exactly what I said in my last post. There are threads for each of the national tables. Now that all tables (except the latest one) have been recovered, refurbished, slates flattened etc. then the only way I can spot residual or new failings is if problems are reported by unique table ID in the tables thread. Sav
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 27, 2012 19:22:17 GMT
It was the way in which the table's quirks which developed throughout the day that meant a 15k+ break was a tall order even for elite players let alone myself who would need a near perfect table such as table 5 or 6 to get one. Enzo, I would be really interested to know what "quirks you noticed developing throughout the day....?? I thought that the tables all played pretty consistently all day and the scores that Dave Alder sent to me do seem to reflect that with high breaks and scores being made on all of the tables from the start to the end of the competition. ;D Of the three tables that I played, my observations would be... Table 2.... Nice pace on the table, one up and split easy but the break needed a fair amount of left hand side or the white would whip out, which is possibly the reason that the average scores on this table were generally lower than some of the other tables. Table 7.... Perhaps a bit quicker than table 2, but break easy with no side needed at all. Unfortunately I played a very bad split shot and was off quite early in my break game, but Steven (Sheard) hit more than 33k in our game and seemed to enjoy the table! ::) Table 4.... Probably the quickest table in the room that I saw, break easy with no side and one up and split good once you got the pace right. Of the other tables that I either watched or scored during the day, Table 6 probably looked the best and perhaps was slightly slower than the others which meant that players could "attack" it more without as much danger of the balls whipping out which was certainly the case if you hit the balls too hard on other tables.... especially on Table 8 which many of the younger players seemed to struggle on. :-/
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 27, 2012 19:35:11 GMT
Table Averages - Under 25's Table Matches Total Score Game Average High Score 5k+ 10k+ 15k+
1 3 44,740 7,457 11,010 0 1 0 2 4 45,870 5,734 8,660 2 0 0 3 2 22,000 5,500 6,050 2 0 0 4 2 37,120 9,280 15,060 2 0 1 5 3 33,010 5,502 7,840 2 0 0 6 2 37,730 9,443 11,760 2 1 0 7 3 36,880 6,147 11,630 1 1 0 8 3 22,080 3,680 2,890 0 0 0 9 1 14,810 7,405 8,160 1 0 0 Total 23 294,240 6,397 15,060 12 3 1 Is this right Dave? Yes, I took the information directly off the spreadsheet sent to me by Dave Alder.... none of the Under 25's got on well with Table 8. :-/ Strangely, Denise Wills scored 6,400 and 9,580 in her two in the only game played on that table in the Ladies Grand Prix so she obviously quite enjoyed it and Nigel Senior and Phil Collins both managed 15k plus scores on it.... although generally the average scores recorded were the lowest in the Open Grand Prix as well as the Under 25's. :o
|
|
enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
|
Post by enzo on Nov 27, 2012 21:05:00 GMT
Enzo, I would be really interested to know what "quirks you noticed developing throughout the day....?? I will have a different opinion to you Dave as I generally talk about the ability to get the break back not just the 3 shots you play to get a high break and you may be underestimating the level of experience difference between the Grand Prix and the U25s players in terms of recognizing and adapting to different tables. Table 2 had a quirky break that one could easily disrupt their concentration on whilst trying to get a break which seemed to get worse later in the day once it was cooler/less humid?! Table 3 had a snakey right then left roll on the left and and right roll on the right 30. Table 4 the 1-up seemed to either be just too thick it would be a risky 100 split or a 20 split and a tad thinner with no matter how much right it would shoot high of the 50. Again this seemed to be worse later on. Table 7 was doing something later on compared to the beginning as it was catching some people out up the table. Table 8 had an extremely thick break, it was rolling right and was downhill so balls collected on the back cushion but seemed to get better throughout the day. Table 9 had an extremely thin break and right hand roll. These are my personal experiences but they may well be completely different in your eyes. This is a part of the game I am working on, trying to find a balance between dialling in a table quickly and over analysing it. Yes, I took the information directly off the spreadsheet sent to me by Dave Alder.... none of the Under 25's got on well with Table 8. :-/ I meant the high score can't be lower than the average?! I think table 8 was just so different from the other it threw us off, and I played it first game and wasn't ready for a quirky table straight off the bat! Strangely, Denise Wills scored 6,400 and 9,580 in her two in the only game played on that table in the Ladies Grand Prix so she obviously quite enjoyed it Yes I scored this one, Denise got along with the table straight away and I felt sympathy for Coleen as I had the same 'bad luck' as she did.
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 27, 2012 23:33:16 GMT
Very interesting comments Enzo.... and very well explained as well. 8-) Perhaps I can respond to some of them.... I will have a different opinion to you Dave as I generally talk about the ability to get the break back not just the 3 shots you play to get a high break and you may be underestimating the level of experience difference between the Grand Prix and the U25s players in terms of recognizing and adapting to different tables. Agree entirely that the Grand Prix players have much more experience than the Under 25's and that make a big difference when it comes to choice of shots and ability to "read" a table.... both around the break and, often more importantly, when it comes to getting the break back. It was one of the main reasons that I started to play in the Opens a few years ago, to watch the best players and try to learn from them to improve my game. 8-) Some interesting observations on the tables, I have replied within the quote in yellow... Table 2 had a quirky break that one could easily disrupt their concentration on whilst trying to get a break which seemed to get worse later in the day once it was cooler/less humid?! I played Table 2 in the first game of the day, apart from the white ball wanting to come inside on the break it seemed good and the last Grand Prix game of the day on it ended up with Keith Sheard opening with 9,720 and Paul Sainsbury coming back with 10,960 to beat Keith on his break game, so 20k plus in a single game.... admittedly 2 of the best players in the game, but hard to say that the table was "worse" later in the day? :o Table 3 had a snakey right then left roll on the left and and right roll on the right 30. I didn't play this table myself, but scored the semi-final between KT and Henry on it, I agree that there did seem to be a roll on the table and think that perhaps the table was slightly uphill.... not that it bothered Phil when he hit 22k on it!! ;D Table 4 the 1-up seemed to either be just too thick it would be a risky 100 split or a 20 split and a tad thinner with no matter how much right it would shoot high of the 50. Again this seemed to be worse later on. I played this in the last series of the Grand Prixand it was very quick, one up just a gentle flick with right on it and the red ball sat nicely for the 100 split. I do have to disagree totally that it got worse later on.... the Grand Prix Final was played on this table.... Phil 19,860 table run out, KT 20,240 table run out in reply. How much better do you want than that... especially as I don't think that you played the table yourself according to the schedule of games! :P Table 7 was doing something later on compared to the beginning as it was catching some people out up the table. I played table 7 in the second series of the Grand Prix.... or perhaps I should say that I watched my opponent play it.... and then scored the next game as well. I couldn't say that I saw anything wrong with it at all, I played a poor shot and didn't get away with it in my game. :-[ Table 8 had an extremely thick break, it was rolling right and was downhill so balls collected on the back cushion but seemed to get better throughout the day. I briefly watched a bit of one of the early Under 25 games on Table 8 while waiting for the Grand Prix to start, the biggest problem that I saw was players hitting the balls too hard on it so the pockets were whipping the balls out. With the number of balls on the back cushion, it may well have been downhill and certainly the scores generally were lower on this table throughout the day than on the others so I would probably agree that it wasn't as nice as some. ;) Table 9 had an extremely thin break and right hand roll. I know that Paul Sainsbury played a few shots up the table before the Under 25 Final was played on this table, but I didn't watch the match as I was scoring a different game. 8-) These are my personal experiences but they may well be completely different in your eyes. This is a part of the game I am working on, trying to find a balance between dialling in a table quickly and over analysing it. Yes, opinions may vary about the tables and how to play the game, but isn't that one of the great things about it? Certainly being able to pick things up about a table can only help to improve your game, but you are absolutely right to say that you shouldn't over analyse it. 8-) With regards to.... [I meant the high score can't be lower than the average?! ... perhaps I didn't explain this very well. :-/ The "game average" score was based on the scores achieved by BOTH players in one leg.... the "high score" was the highest individual score by ONE player in a single leg.... therefore if one player scored 2,890 in the game and his opponent scored 790 the "game average" for that leg would be 3,680. I hope that makes it clearer and explains why the high score is less than the average? I think that it was great to see the younger players competing in their own competition and showing so much enthusiasm for the game, I hope that this means that the game will continue for many years to come and that they will encourage more people of their own age to take part and play in future. If I could give them any piece of advice that would be to enter the Opens.... watch the "best" players while they are playing.... and talk to them about the game. I have only been playing for 7 years now and I am very grateful to the many people who have always been happy to talk to me about ways to try to improve my game. 8-) ;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by Coleman Jnr on Nov 28, 2012 12:04:38 GMT
I can't agree more Dave, then to get people entering opens! Regardless of age, I have spent many a games, watching and scoring games, sometimes not even getting a shot, but you learn soo much. I have came on leaps and bounds since I started on the opens circuit last year. You can learn new shots, that maybe your league don't know, and can be the difference between losing and winning a game!
|
|
|
Post by BigPhilMac on Nov 28, 2012 13:53:19 GMT
I think it really shows what can be achieved when daves at the stage hes at having only been playing for 7 years! :o pretty inspiring
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 13:56:22 GMT
I think it really shows what can be achieved when daves at the stage hes at having only been playing for 7 years! :o pretty inspiring Quite so, Dave even now passes on tips to me which I find useful - and I've been playing 44 years ! ;D
|
|
PaulS
Full Forum Member
Posts: 102
|
Post by PaulS on Nov 28, 2012 15:38:12 GMT
"Table 9 had an extremely thin break and right hand roll. I know that Paul Sainsbury played a few shots up the table before the Under 25 Final was played on this table, but I didn't watch the match as I was scoring a different game."
Just for the record I did run a few balls on it but purely on behalf of the Tunbridge Wells league who are considering buying it and wanted to make sure there wasn't anything terribly wrong with it.
Had I known the U25 final was to be played on it I may have suggested someone (Dave Alder or Phil Hawkins) have a quick look at it as the break was not easy (although still playable). I don't recall a right hand roll though.
|
|
|
Post by bigjimsilverfox on Nov 28, 2012 15:50:43 GMT
"Table 9 had an extremely thin break and right hand roll. I know that Paul Sainsbury played a few shots up the table before the Under 25 Final was played on this table, but I didn't watch the match as I was scoring a different game." Just for the record I did run a few balls on it but purely on behalf of the Tunbridge Wells league who are considering buying it and wanted to make sure there wasn't anything terribly wrong with it. Had I known the U25 final was to be played on it I may have suggested someone (Dave Alder or Phil Hawkins) have a quick look at it as the break was not easy (although still playable). I don't recall a right hand roll though. I scored the final on this table and although both players missed their opening break shots Lewis managed to get 9k in the first leg and Loz got 5k in the second leg as well as pegging a few grand along the way!
|
|
Was
member
(194)
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 16:03:49 GMT
It definitely rolled right
|
|
|
Post by bigjimsilverfox on Nov 28, 2012 16:16:28 GMT
It definitely rolled right Maybe not helped by the mechinism jamming and having to lift the top at the start either ::)
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Nov 28, 2012 16:37:40 GMT
"Table 9 had an extremely thin break and right hand roll. I know that Paul Sainsbury played a few shots up the table before the Under 25 Final was played on this table, but I didn't watch the match as I was scoring a different game." Just for the record I did run a few balls on it but purely on behalf of the Tunbridge Wells league who are considering buying it and wanted to make sure there wasn't anything terribly wrong with it. Had I known the U25 final was to be played on it I may have suggested someone (Dave Alder or Phil Hawkins) have a quick look at it as the break was not easy (although still playable). I don't recall a right hand roll though. Paul, in view of the fact that nobody had played on the table and the competition was over apart from the Finals, I thought perhaps that Dave or Phil may have suggested that you ran some balls up before the Under 25 Final was played, I certainly didn't mean to give an impression that you had done anything incorrect as you certainly hadn't. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Coleman Jnr on Nov 28, 2012 16:38:57 GMT
If every table was perfect and exactly the same, then the most consistent and quickest players would always win. It takes a great skill to adapt to a table, that isn't soo perfect. Which both obviously did, getting decent breaks.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 22:27:38 GMT
If every table was perfect and exactly the same, then the most consistent and quickest players would always win. It takes a great skill to adapt to a table, that isn't soo perfect. Which both obviously did, getting decent breaks. Sounds like it was a very competitive under 25s which is great and healthy for the future of the game! I agree with you that the game does require good adaptable players, at the end of the day its the best player on the table your both playing! I deeply regret I wasnt able to attend, boy I would of loved to of tested myself with the standard displayed! Shame all the northants players were in the same table, who did the draw ;D
|
|
PaulS
Full Forum Member
Posts: 102
|
Post by PaulS on Nov 29, 2012 9:19:40 GMT
"Table 9 had an extremely thin break and right hand roll. I know that Paul Sainsbury played a few shots up the table before the Under 25 Final was played on this table, but I didn't watch the match as I was scoring a different game." Just for the record I did run a few balls on it but purely on behalf of the Tunbridge Wells league who are considering buying it and wanted to make sure there wasn't anything terribly wrong with it. Had I known the U25 final was to be played on it I may have suggested someone (Dave Alder or Phil Hawkins) have a quick look at it as the break was not easy (although still playable). I don't recall a right hand roll though. Paul, in view of the fact that nobody had played on the table and the competition was over apart from the Finals, I thought perhaps that Dave or Phil may have suggested that you ran some balls up before the Under 25 Final was played, I certainly didn't mean to give an impression that you had done anything incorrect as you certainly hadn't. ;D Dave, not taken that way, just wanted to clarify that I wasn't levelling the table up for the final!
|
|
David.G
Distinguished Member
Posts: 550
|
Post by David.G on Nov 29, 2012 22:11:51 GMT
Paul, in view of the fact that nobody had played on the table and the competition was over apart from the Finals, I thought perhaps that Dave or Phil may have suggested that you ran some balls up before the Under 25 Final was played, I certainly didn't mean to give an impression that you had done anything incorrect as you certainly hadn't. ;D Dave, not taken that way, just wanted to clarify that I wasn't levelling the table up for the final! Just for the record. There were in all 10 tables set up for the Grand Prix - Under 25s. The Final was played on TABLE 9. This was set up solely for the Under 25s as i had 10 entries using an 8 table format. If anyone else had entered i would have used this table TABLE 10 was set up ONLY for paul to see how the table played before being sold
|
|
enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
|
Post by enzo on Dec 6, 2012 11:55:31 GMT
Dave, based on your comments RE table 4 I must have the wrong one in mind if it was the one the Final was played on, you are correct I did not play that table. :/ Table 2 however I did play the last game on it and having watched a game on it earlier it was definitely doing something different.
It is almost impossible for me to gauge the 1-up & split as I can't stand my new tip and how I get it to apply spin and no matter how much I practice, the consistency of my 1-up has gone down the toilet. :(
I feel comfortable in knowing I am following a similar path to you, last year I too decided to attend as many opens as possible every year, getting a whooping at most of them, but just picking up a shot here and there and mainly so that competition at the top level becomes more natural rather than nerves coming in playing 'on the big stage'. I had no idea you had only been playing 7 years though that really is incredible.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 12:04:38 GMT
I had no idea you had only been playing 7 years though that really is incredible. ......but playing in so many different Leagues at once, he's fitted in 35 seasons' worth of play in that time. LOL ;D
|
|
|
Post by milko on Dec 6, 2012 13:26:21 GMT
I had no idea you had only been playing 7 years though that really is incredible. ......but playing in so many different Leagues at once, he's fitted in 35 seasons' worth of play in that time. LOL ;D Yes it goes to show how easy our game of Bar Billiards is when players can make "International" status in no time at all! They do say though "Practice makes perfect" milko 8-)
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2012 14:13:59 GMT
I had no idea you had only been playing 7 years though that really is incredible. ......but playing in so many different Leagues at once, he's fitted in 35 seasons' worth of play in that time. LOL ;D Hmmmm.... based on the fact that most players seem to play 2 Leagues nowadays, maybe it would be fairer to say that I've had the equivalent of 14 years worth of play!! ::) ;D ;D I did play bar billiards for a season in Brighton back in 1980 after Dave Elliott (who was one of the main players in Brighton in those days) showed me how to play the game, but I was then given a choice by ex-wife between playing darts, snooker or bar billiards.... and since I was much better at darts and snooker they got the vote at that time. ;D A major car accident and shoulder reconstruction ended my darts ambitions and then marriage, children and work took up most of my time so I then didn't start playing bar billiards again until early in 2006 (after my divorce! ::)) and absolutely love playing the game. 8-) I hope that there will still be room for improvement.... with plenty of practice of course! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 18:51:14 GMT
I had in on very good authority (= Uncle Max) that when you throw yourself into something you give it 100%. But that your abiding passion was cricket. He didn't mention snooker or darts.
|
|
|
Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2012 23:43:49 GMT
I had in on very good authority (= Uncle Max) that when you throw yourself into something you give it 100%. But that your abiding passion was cricket. He didn't mention snooker or darts. Yes, it was through cricket (and Uncle Max ;D) that I started playing bar billiards again as the pub (White Horse in Dirchling) that we went to after a match had a table and he mentioned that he played.... I gave him a game and next thing I know is I get signed up to play for the team there! :o Although I played cricket for more than 20 years (for the same village league team), my darts and snooker pre-dated that so Colin (Uncle Max) wouldn't have known about that as I didn't play either regularly following a major car accident that I had which meant that I could never play again at the same level that I had been as a youngster. :'(
|
|
enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
|
Post by enzo on Dec 7, 2012 9:22:30 GMT
Hmmmm.... based on the fact that most players seem to play 2 Leagues nowadays, maybe it would be fairer to say that I've had the equivalent of 14 years worth of play!! ::) ;D ;D Wow you truly are dedicated to this game.. 4 leagues?! all with their own comps, inter-league, sussex comps, open, national & international comps and you've still had time to be part of some of the leagues' governing bodies! Wow.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 10:43:06 GMT
Wow you truly are dedicated to this game.. 4 leagues?! all with their own comps, inter-league, sussex comps, open, national & international comps and you've still had time to be part of some of the leagues' governing bodies! Wow. .........and run a business ! One year he played in 8 leagues.....must be slightly mellowing. ;)
|
|