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Post by daveuk1 on Jan 1, 2017 16:10:06 GMT
Isn't the skill in actually playing the red ball and keeping it up for the last ball if you need 400 to win, also by having the red on the table when the bar has dropped always means there is a chance of getting a 400 shot and then leave one white up for a final 200 shot, that makes a minimum of 600 points.
Our rules have been tried and tested, accepted by the AEBBA as the rules for four pin so why try to change something that works perfectly well?
My thoughts only
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 1, 2017 18:18:50 GMT
Like All games, rules need reviewing from time to time, to take into account things that arise that can affect the enjoyment of the participants and spectators or are deemed to be unfair, so keep looking at ways things can be improved for the better, progress and innovation are not swear words or revolutionary words they are evolutionary words, the game needs to evolve, bring you suggestions to your committee for discussion and implementation, cant see why any good ideas would be rejected by a forward thinking committee/league.
You won't get much support for change on this forum so change your own rules as you see fit and enjoy, just as the Eastbourne 4 pin league has done, you can see this on the sussex board/ eastbourne sub board/ Hall and Woodhouse 4 pin sub board
regs cs
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 1, 2017 20:50:00 GMT
that's the second time you've said this Dave? it's not aimed at your rules, I'm sorry you feel the need to defend them. when you have thee standard rules set, I guess you are going to feel it is aimed at you but it isn't.
I'm still playing with the red on the D. that was how the Nmkt & BSE league did it, so I guess I'm changing the rules after the horse has left the stable, paddock, town and country. History is written by the victor as they say and my league is deceased so what's the point you're making? i forgot.
I'm changing the rules in my living room of a deceased league. if your league went tits up tomorrow would that make your rules wrong? no, of course not. So if I was usingg one red which i have till now, I would agree with you, but I have two and the gate has gone. now what?
I thought you were going to question my ability to hit a good shot, to even know where one is? guess I missed that bullet. LOL!!!!!
Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Jan 1, 2017 21:55:20 GMT
Hi Taffy
Sorry if I offended you, that was never my intentions. Everyone has a different view, life would be dam boring if we all thought the same and agreed. What you do is entirely up to you, quite often we play only using the two 50 holes plus the 100 and 200 hole as scoring holes, a ball down any other hole keeps your break going but doesn't score you any points.
I know down south they've basically used our rules with a few tweaks to make the game more enjoyable for them and I can understand that and agree with some, what I am saying is the rules we use for the four open have been approved and probably wont change, I would love to see the bulk lines being used and not having to always have the red in play but I am in a minority here so I cant our rules changing in the near future.
Btw hope we will see you in March
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 22:21:35 GMT
It's all new and exciting to Taffy who seems to have rediscovered the game after a long absence ......
This happened to a certain three-pinner who having given the game up for 25 years discovered such an appetite for the game that he was soon playing for five different leagues a week and got to such a level that he eventually became World Champion.
The World Championships take place each November over in Jersey, and are played under their rules which means that every shot has to be played from the middle of the D.
The prime event for 4-Pin is staged in March each year in Suffolk, and accordingly we unquestionably play under their rules.
Practising at home for those lucky enough to own a table is a matter of choice for the individual: Sometimes I am unhappy with my cue action (all over the place instead of keeping the arm straight): if this happens I have a couple of games without any pegs or mushrooms on the table at all.
The important thing is to gain joy out of playing the game, and there are maybe a few things to learn from how they play the game up in Norwich, where rather refreshingly they appear not to take themselves too seriously !
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 2, 2017 14:35:57 GMT
I would love to see the bulk lines being used and not having to always have the red in play but I am in a minority here so I cant our rules changing in the near future. Dave Think you might find that these views are now in the majority Dave  |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 3, 2017 12:22:18 GMT
I would love to see the bulk lines being used and not having to always have the red in play but I am in a minority here so I cant our rules changing in the near future. Dave yes I thought that, with two reds there are too many on the table it seems and the other way is to grab a white from the trough. the two reds probably come into use when the top has just got clogged and the first red is de-commissioned. the second red hopefully is somewhere usable. 4 pin = 7 whites 3 pin = 6 whites so an extra red makes it look like piccadilli circus. not a problem when the skills are there but to a novice it just becomes a hopeless log jam with no apparent skill. its that word 'apparent'. best thing to do is have a free open day, 'come and try it' and as they await there next turn or after a game: ask them what they think or felt? encourage them to say it their way. "well I felt really silly but I hit all the skittles" I didn't like that bit so much! but when that lovely lady over there showed us how to play it became so much easier! we also tried the game with ******* and that seemed better. I will always use the whole 'D' (except a break shot). to be able to go down the edge of the red skittle is a 'skill' and to move the ball ever so slightly to get balls in the 200, 100 and 50s is something I shall hold on tight to! I want to raise the skill and the enjoyment and using the centre of the D is like telling a donkey he'll enjoy his day around the well.... regards Taffy |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2017 17:26:04 GMT
using the centre of the D is like telling a donkey he'll enjoy his day around the well.... regards Taffy Are you deliberately trying to upset our Guernsey friends ?  They will hold that our version of the game is too easy, there is extra skill needed in banana-ing the ball from the centre of the D round the black to hit a ball between the 20 and 10 on either side, and in angling shots off the side cushion to pick up balls in a straight line up the middle or immediately behind the ten hole. That is where the ability to "read a table" comes into the equation (ie. are the cushions flat or bouncy ? is there a slight roll to left or right or uphill/downhill ?) 4 pin = 7 whites 3 pin = 6 whites You've got that the wrong way round, Taffy, 3 pin has 7 whites and 4 pin only 6. As regards that extra red that you have, you only need one......best suggestion I can think of is to keep the spare one in a sock by the front door (in case of any hooligans disturbing the peace).  |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 3, 2017 18:21:58 GMT
haha! you've watched 'Scum' too many times with a young Ray Winstone!
I don't think I've ever seen anyone play a good shot in 4-pin when the ball was stuck behind the 30 (your 3-pin '10') because we have two skittles on the way down and they are fat not skinny like a mushroom! also we can't play anything but a hit 'n hope off the side because we have skittle infront of the 50 hole.
quite how the Gedney Hill Mob (must be the name for a good whacky race that!) go off the middle of the D for everything I do NOT know! the Sudbury lads use mushrooms and use the whole D, my old league had skittles like Gedney Hill but used the whole D like subury and we are/were halfway between the two!
we have 6 fingers on all three hands here in the Fens and I've always played with one white per finger so I should have remembered. it's also one white per inch (ahem.......) and its getting smaller as i get older!
Taffy
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 4, 2017 0:06:57 GMT
using the centre of the D is like telling a donkey he'll enjoy his day around the well.... regards Taffy Are you deliberately trying to upset our Guernsey friends ? They will hold that our version of the game is too easy, there is extra skill needed in banana-ing the ball from the centre of the D round the black to hit a ball between the 20 and 10 on either side, and in angling shots off the side cushion to pick up balls in a straight line up the middle or immediately behind the ten hole. That is where the ability to "read a table" comes into the equation (ie. are the cushions flat or bouncy ? is there a slight roll to left or right or uphill/downhill ?) 4 pin = 7 whites 3 pin = 6 whites You've got that the wrong way round, Taffy, 3 pin has 7 whites and 4 pin only 6. As regards that extra red that you have, you only need one......best suggestion I can think of is to keep the spare one in a sock by the front door (in case of any hooligans disturbing the peace). 4 Pin has 7 whites in the Eastbourne rules! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 0:20:43 GMT
4 Pin has 7 whites in the Eastbourne rules! Who authorised that ? Certainly not the sponsors........methinks you are forgetting your origins, you were born out of the Crawley League which followed Sudbury rules (officially recognised by AEBBA). You're on your own now !  |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 4, 2017 1:44:04 GMT
could you see them leaving one white on the side then Tommo?
mmm?
Landlord! take this away before I'm tempted!
Dave
I will have a go at grabbing any white while waiting for the red if available. I played some 3-pin against some lads in Milton near Cambridge and they just grabbed a white and got on with it...I didn't know if that was coz it was a Friday night bit of fun.
Taffy
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 4, 2017 8:02:13 GMT
4 Pin has 7 whites in the Eastbourne rules! Who authorised that ? Certainly not the sponsors........methinks you are forgetting your origins, you were born out of the Crawley League which followed Sudbury rules (officially recognised by AEBBA). You're on your own now ! i'm such a rebel  i think we played with 7 whites at Northants as well! |
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Post by daveuk1 on Jan 4, 2017 12:24:21 GMT
Hmmm cs a rebel with an extra ball, now that is worrying, I hope you haven't got two red balls aswell  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 14:01:16 GMT
I will have a go at grabbing any white while waiting for the red if available. Taffy I'll always wait for the red when then there's a chance for a high-value in-off on the next shot: I'd rather score 60 than 30, I'd rather score 200 than 100. Having said that, I'd rather be a sparrow than a snail. |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 4, 2017 14:31:56 GMT
Hmmm cs a rebel with an extra ball, now that is worrying, I hope you haven't got two red balls aswell not at the moment Dave,the ointment is working |
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Post by daveuk1 on Jan 4, 2017 18:39:00 GMT
Glad the ointment is working cos no matter how much I love you I draw the line at playing with your balls
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 5, 2017 18:30:36 GMT
Glad the ointment is working cos no matter how much I love you I draw the line at playing with your balls they're certainly discoloured and show signs of wear and tear  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 18:41:30 GMT
they're certainly discoloured and show signs of wear and tear That's what happens when you keep upsetting the missus. |
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Jan 5, 2017 18:56:36 GMT
here's one I could do with a hand with? mushrooms v skittles OK? Sudbury like the mushroom to be 6mm from the edge of the hole, the widest the base can be is 18mm. absolutely fair enough OK! but let us freeze the ball that is 'rimming' and hold it against a mushroom then remove the mushroom and put a skittle there. because of the shape of a skittle, to get the skittle to touch this frozen ball (that is still rimming!) to put it there it must move further from the hole. it is now 8-9mm away! I had the 21.5mm mushroom i own just 4mm from the hole BTW if your thinking 'how dee doo dat?' so to give the same 'freedom' to a skittle it should be around 8-9mm away from the hole.  OK, what have i missed? cheers lads - I'm sure you'll put me right! Taffy |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 5, 2017 21:13:19 GMT
they're certainly discoloured and show signs of wear and tear That's what happens when you keep upsetting the missus. I wom't even start on whats wrong with my cue  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 23:35:09 GMT
I won't even start on whats wrong with my cue Bite marks if it's anything like mine. |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 10, 2017 9:45:33 GMT
hello
any views on the waisted mushroom v beer belly skittle? history? why? I mean they aren't even close are they!
cheers
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 12:37:46 GMT
hello any views on the waisted mushroom v beer belly skittle? history? why? I mean they aren't even close are they! cheers Taffy Would be intrigued to know the answer to that one myself. History of the game prior to the 1960's is, to say the least, sketchy: Competition on a National level only got going in the 1970s and to begin with there was a North-South divide. Remember that communications were far more difficult then (in the days prior to computers). Also road networks were far from being developed to the extent they are now, so players tended to move only within the orbit of their own league. Narrow tables, set up for 4-Pin, have always been around but have been seen as a novelty and the 'exception' regarding league play (-apart from East Anglia and the Fens which we would not have been aware of anyway). Mushrooms seemed to go with the territory and added to the mystique, especially as they seemed to have a range of sizes and designs, though none seeming to be new stock. The advent of the Supreme table in the 1990s with its hybrid half-pool table design, also seemed to introduce the standard design for the mushroom that we see now - although I have also seen sets of plastic pins (2 x white, 1 x red and 1 x black) in use as well. |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 11, 2017 19:01:26 GMT
at 24mm up which is the balls widest point, the mushroom is 12mm and the skittle 21mm on my table.
big difference.
I've taken up Alan Taylor's offer of making me a hybrid.
as for thee second red, the new rules are:
when the gate drops: if a red is in the trough, it is left there to be the very last ball on its own. if two reds are in play as the gate drops - they stay on the table.
otherwise, normal rules regards the second red.
having two reds has spoilt me, I can charge through a game but just now and again, both reds stay up and I get just one white back at a time and it now becomes the whites that are slow and boring.....
I'm also toying with the player (when the gate drops) being allowed to take the ball that they want so the leader will bury the game but a player behind can plan a victory. what with two reds and one staying to the end, this makes the gate dropping the best part of everything but the most one-sided game.
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 19:33:05 GMT
Hi Taffy, Your training for the Open would be better served by making the game more difficult, not easier ! Try adding an extra hazard, thus:   .....or I find the dog snapping round my heels while I have to contort my body round him to play offers a good challenge ! |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 15, 2017 12:19:58 GMT
i know that sudbury rules request that a mushroom is 6mm from the edge of the hole but are there any rules for skittles? clearly if they are also 6mm from the hole then we have two different standards.
I have changed the table a little. the baize part is 143cm long which is the table maximum allowed in the design but I couldn't play the corner diagonal back to the 200. by marking a fresh baseline 30mm forward and re-marking the D, this shot is now possible if I go to the 'away' side of the D for the corner I'm shooting into. the ball is a little skitso as it comes back but plain ball it nearly goes in the 200 but prefers the skittle!
trouble is, the break shot moved but I'm getting used to it now and can get my hand down on the leather comfortably now.
tried a black that could be used as a back-up red OR a white and it was impossible. lasted one game! i had no idea what the black was after it had been used a couple of times (as 8th ball and last up). so now I'm trying another way forwards.
the second red that sits in the trough and a white has gone down. so the red is pulled and declared 'white' to the scorer (imaginary of course!) is played but only worth a whites value. if the ball stays up it sits on the table as the second red to be counted double for whoever gets it down. essentially, after the shot, it can be forgotten and left just as it appears to be, a red worth double.
so the second red gets used, value white for that shot, value of red thereafter as it suits on the table. this seems to work at the moment. it means that a scorer has to keep an eye on this second red for its value. it's likely that the person using the red doesn't get the true value only for the next player - your opposition to have it on the table and perhaps receive the true value of it.
might not work but sure as hell beats waiting for the balls to return.
I'm getting big breaks all the time now of 750-1000 and broke my own table record of 1,800 on Thursday and would have had 2,300 yesterday but the red took the skittle out clean....
I hate this game sometimes!
very few of those points were break shots, my talents only get one down at a time but I'm banging in 50,100 and 200 shots from all angles. its a lot of fun! I guess if it wasn't my GF i was playing I would have to be a bit more cautious..
Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Jan 15, 2017 13:08:59 GMT
Taffy not sure where you've got your 6mm from, sudbury rules give no measurement and just say
"Pegs shall be placed (the baulk line side) to cover the 200 hole, the 100 hole, and the two 50 holes."
I can sorta see your logic in changing the table dimensions to suit your game at home and make certain shots easier for you. But that won't help you outside your house where every table is different. I've yet to play on any table set up for four pin where with a couple of practice shots the 200 up in the corner and back is not possible. Some tables need a little side on the ball whole other are just a straight shot. On our narrow table it's a hard shot and many players prefer to go off the right cushion just past the 50 hole with right hand side taking the ball off the side cushion and up between the 10 and 20 hole and back in the 200
Sometimes though we seem to forget this is just a pub game and we over complicate things
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Post by daveuk1 on Jan 15, 2017 14:25:51 GMT
By the way. Don't get me wrong. I love your enthusiasm for four. It's almost like a breath of fresh air
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 15, 2017 17:44:42 GMT
OK so i read that in the AEBBA rules about the 6mm. so I would ask them why a dirty great fat skittle and a waisted mushroom would both sit the same distance from the edge of the hole? given that one has a waistline of 12mm and the other has one of 21mm?
I'm using a pink ball next...I'm getting in touch with my 'other side'! so a red, a pink and 6 white balls. the pink is a second red unless it is all that is left and a white has gone down. because I don't want to wait I pull up the pink and call 'white'.
not overly worried about the EAO Dave, i devour new ideas in my daily work very similar to this, designing new stuff and trying out ideas. it makes me good money. money from your hobby and your passion....
I can't train on the table I'm playing on, I just have to adapt to what I'm on and get on with it. I haven't forgotten how to play and also i don't have a pub team to play with each week. a team of one- that's me!
Taffy
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