taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 24, 2016 14:46:02 GMT
the topic means: 'what would you swap around and move to make 4-pin a more appealing game?'
I guess the parameters are:
how long for, indeed, does it need to have a timer at all?
where to put the 4 (more or less) pins
where to and what to value the holes
more or less balls
whole D or not
where to put the front spot
how close to the holes for the skittles
how broad the base of the skittles/mushrooms = how easy to knock over
I will start it
forward spot moved forwards or backwards to stop the 'Eastbourne' shot
don't lose your whole score for the 200 pin down - just the break.
200 chosen as last shot, don't lose anything - rest of break on the board, then go for it, any of the pins down - lose the break as normal
two side holes worth 100 - not 50
100 hole worth 50
100 hole no pin protection, worth 50
break shot from the centre of the D
all other shots 'anywhere' on the D
9 balls
all holes, 'easydrop'
skittles not mushrooms
over to you gentlemen? and yes that now makes 'my' game 3-pin.......
I of course can do this experiment myself very easily! in rugby union they have 'experimental' leagues. in the old amatuer days (pre '95) the two leagues were one in NZ and the other was Cambridge University Colleges (as in one v another). you played an experimental law for the season in that league and it got reviewed at the end of the season.
Taffy
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Post by BB Warrior on Nov 24, 2016 15:29:47 GMT
Taffy, I have a very simple solution to your question.... the topic means: 'what would you swap around and move to make 4-pin a more appealing game?' .... take away one of the pins on the table and play 3-pin bar billiards, some people think that version is much more appealing!  I now wait to be slaughtered by Tommo, Gandalf and a few others who are misguided about the different versions of the game!  |
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Post by Chris_Sav on Nov 24, 2016 15:37:08 GMT
Why change it? the four pin leagues don't have a problem with it.
make much more sense to remove the 'watching paint dry' aspects of the three pin game, but there again the three pin leagues won't like that either.
So why alter the one version of the game that is more interesting to non professional spectators
Sav
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 15:44:38 GMT
Very much with Sav on this one. We have had intense discussions on the General Bar Billiards Board on how to make the game more appealing - but that was more to do with 3-Pin. This suggestion could however apply to either version: I would tweak the scoring even further though, reflective of the difficulty of the hole thus: 10 hole = 100 pts 20 holes = 50 pts 30 holes = 30 pts 50 holes = 20 pts 100 hole = 40 pts 200 hole = 400 pts Other than that, add an additional obstacle to the table, thus:  |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 24, 2016 17:21:32 GMT
10-20-30-20-10
in the 4-pin game, the 100 hole is the second least used up the top end. the least used is of course the 200. which means, how would you get the 100 from the break shot? if the 30 hole (in the middle) is difficult Tommo I've been doing it wrong!
the 10 hole for 100
the 100 hole for 40? that means without the skittle there right? I'd want more than 40 if the skittle was there. the 100 hole is in the middle of nowhere and deserves points for an accurate pot.
if the break shot doesn't work or is negated, you want to get balls down the middle hole even if they have gone by it, this means using the back cushion, a typical 4-pin skill. the trouble is the 5 holes are placed wrong for this. the 20 is too close to the middle line....shame, but I've often wished there were just 4 holes down there or that the wide out 10's were nearer the side cushion or the holes were staggered in a slight 'W' but I guess the slate cracking might have something to do with it. the other one was to have the middle hole of the back 5 coming up nearer the 100 and worth little.
so 10, 20 where they are but 1/2" nearer the centreline and the middle 30 squeezed up towards the 100.
-10-20------20-10-
--------30--------
-
--------50--------
-
-100----------100-
-
--------200-------
I'd like to see the 100 and 200 be a full part of the game.
back tto as is which is where I started: placing the Cue ball to the side of centre by up to 3". cue ball runs over the edge of the 200 hole diagonally through between 200 and 100, hits object ball off top cushion and back into the 100? I'll have to see if that can be done next time!
all good fun!
Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Nov 24, 2016 17:54:13 GMT
The Sudbury league has functioned very successfully for the last 50 years with the rules basically the same as they are now, if it aint broke don't try and fix it.
Unless im reading your post wrong Taffy, placing the cue ball 3 inches off centre means you've got a bl00dy big D
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Nov 24, 2016 18:02:26 GMT
Why change it? the four pin leagues don't have a problem with it. make much more sense to remove the 'watching paint dry' aspects of the three pin game, but there again the three pin leagues won't like that either. So why alter the one version of the game that is more interesting to non professional spectators Sav think its more interesting for those that play it.. wom't expand futher at this time  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 19:25:18 GMT
Yeah, I too am in the 'if it aint broke don't try and fix it' brigade. In retrospect my hole value changes were really aimed at 3-Pin where some rather more controversial suggestions had been made. The idea of the reduction in value of the 50 pockets were to stop boring b*ggers (myself included) from staying on there for 3,000 plus ! Would go against the spirit of 4-Pin where 50 is a nice reward for getting the right angle and avoiding or just tickling the 'shroom.  |
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 24, 2016 19:38:18 GMT
oh there's no harm in a bit of thinking is there!
your right Dave, the game has barely changed in 50 years - that's why your changing the tables.
all I'm doing is a bit of free thinking....
but of course if you don't ponder then fair enough....
I always ponder!
Taffy
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Post by Chris_Sav on Nov 24, 2016 22:43:44 GMT
Why change it? the four pin leagues don't have a problem with it. make much more sense to remove the 'watching paint dry' aspects of the three pin game, but there again the three pin leagues won't like that either. So why alter the one version of the game that is more interesting to non professional spectators Sav think its more interesting for those that play it.. wom't expand futher at this time Assuming you mean playing the three pin version which is dying on its feet, then how about my thoughts that in a not so many years time the four pin version might be the only surviving league bar billiards still playing. Their game has not been contaminated by the three down / one-up / split mentality of the three pin aficionados. There is even a proposition in at the AEBBA AGM to remove the alternate triangle rules bit of variation to our game. Current Four Pin Champ! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 23:06:06 GMT
Assuming you mean playing the three pin version which is dying on its feet, then how about my thoughts that in a not so many years time the four pin version might be the only surviving league bar billiards still playing. Their game has not been contaminated by the three down / one-up / split mentality of the three pin aficionados. Sadly the evidence points that way: When whole big leagues can disappear down to nothing (Canterbury, Southampton, Winchester, Andover, Newbury, Wokingham to name but a few) that suggests a dwindling of interest. That is why we need to embrace and encourage our new colleagues up north in Yorkshire as the only new 3-pin Leagues that have started up, matched by Norwich and Eastbourne for 4-Pin. |
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Nov 24, 2016 23:52:40 GMT
agree with you ol fella, was talking about 4 pin, its just a shame that some 3 pinners aren't prepared to even give the game (4 pin) a fair crack o the whip, we all know its expanding when 3 pin is declining, oops goin on again, but have made many suggestions on tweeking the 4 pin rules, oops goin on again, will try not to further not expand further |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 0:23:26 GMT
have made many suggestions on tweeking the 4 pin rules, oops goin on again, will try not to expand further Important not to over-egg the pudding ! |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 25, 2016 0:39:13 GMT
well at least you seem to be able to discuss it all of you and well done to y'all for it.
not that any of you thunk a thought about rugby but have any of you noticed how congested a Rugby union game looks on the TV? ruck after ruck, no overlaps on the wing unless 25 phases have passed? well the won't look at de-congesting the 15 a side game with less players on the pitch. 13 men play 'League'....see what has happened? now we all have to be built like baboons and the grace has left the game. all because of the egos of a few sad people and that 2 sets of alikadoos will have to condense down into 1....tish! tish!
so all your prides will cometh before the fall.
why not ask a league to be an experimental league in the Summer and report back?
anyway, all just ideas. I have a different background that lends different ideas. I hope something is useful.
but can we have some more ideas about the 4 pin - even though I did get down to 3-pin myself there for a minute or two!
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 8:58:27 GMT
From what I can make out, Taffy, you're for diversity - and believe it or not that's what we have in both versions of the game.
Some counties have just one league, whereas three counties (Oxon, Sussex and Kent) have more than one (Sussex have ten !).
The leagues differ in every way imaginable - size, strength, competition rules. Some play a mixture of singles and doubles games on league night.
Some are new and vibrant, some on the way out.
Most three pin counties play on Jelkes tables, Sussex being the exception - playing on Sams Brothers.
In some areas there is a high turnover of decent venues - what seems a really good one sometimes only lasts a couple of years before it becomes shut or turned into a 'foodie'.
For 4-pin, there's diversity in the form of Suffolk (Sudbury) which is run in a professional manner, Norwich which has only been in existence for a few years and has primarily young players, Wellingborough which is in serious decline and Fenland (Snookerette) which is shrouded in mystery and for which we are rather hoping you will act as our man on the spot. Hopefully we will soon be seeing some league night reports from the Black Bear !
The nearest thing we have to an experimental league is the Eastbourne Summer League, involving top 3-Pinners who have been sold on the delights of 4-Pin: now in its fourth year and growing in stature with every one.
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 25, 2016 15:37:18 GMT
I like diversity in that the best way forward can be seen and taken, I like advancement, to never stop improving etc.
I don't think the Nmkt & BSE rules or Sudbury for that matter (they are both very close) have a monopoly on the rules of the game. for 35 years I've watched people put 50p in the slot, pull the lever and ask what next. I've watched them hit the balls, they look capable, they look reasonably competent. in what other game was it critical what the cue ball did AFTER it had done its job? oh dear down goes a skittle.
they hit all their balls around the near-end area of the table-skittles fly....
they go down the bottom and don't hit 3/4 ball, a ball rolls onto the top cushion and back = no score. for them, the game is a mess! well that is how I started! it's how we all started!
until someone shows you how to hit the balls....then an obsession with getting better begins. it doesn't last long: lack of playing partners, mates not in for a drink today, conversation too good to break it up in an almost anti-social manner.
yeh, i think about it. I always did.....
I reckon taking the 100 skittle out to start and learn the game would be good enough.
the other thing is the pace needed, you cue too hard and the ball comes out of the pocket it just went in!
it's not rocket science, the best easydrop pockets, beize, etc.
let's pretend you made a table 'fair'
fair would be:
find a pocket, it goes down
the skittle takes a nudge without falling
the roll of the ball is consistent top to bottom
get the points system right
get the phuqin scoreboard moved from the bottom of the table to a place on the wall next to the players.....
half the pubs, you can't get down the side without wrecking your mates next shot as you drop your 40" DD cups across the top of the table. (Ali's a bitch for that!) my game goes to pieces.....
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 19:16:01 GMT
You must enter the Sudbury in 2017. And bring Ali and put her in the draw too. When it's her turn to play, I'll score her game for her.  |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 25, 2016 23:57:32 GMT
Ha Ha! I've got bigger tits than her! She's OD'd on all this.
I enjoyed my game of 3-pins in the 4-pin game. it wasn't great. skittle infront of 200 and the 50s. shan't write home about it. next time I shall swop the value of the 50s and the 100 and see. maybe I'll secrete a 4th pin onto the table next time I'm out!
just a bit of fun that's all!
regards
Taffy
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Dec 5, 2016 12:31:44 GMT
further to thisd (and it's a shame there isn't further real discussion -so come on you lot), I have been using Mushrooms in the middle line, in front of the 200 and 100. this has meant that getting a ball behind the centre pocket is so, so easy as mushrooms are waisted where it matters!
so for my tests I'm heading for:
4 pin
mushrooms in front of the 200 and the 100
skittles in front of the 50s
easydrop pockets if i can find them.
the alternative is:
3 pin on the 4 pin table
mushrooms in front of the 200
skittles in front of the 50s
50s worth 100, and 100 worth 50 = swop. (as unguarded)
easydrop pockets if i can find them.
if mushrooms = make the D ever so slightly smaller. A 'D' being 40mm radius presently.
as everyone who comes here to my abode (I have many customers through business visit) will be invited to play for the first time I can try it on them first!
there must be loads of you at home with a table, some skittles and mushrooms etc.....
regards
Taffy
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Dec 14, 2016 14:16:40 GMT
 I've just had some skittles made for me by a brilliant guy named Alan on Ebay who repairs tables and makes skittles and mushrooms etc. I looked up the Sudbury league rules and the AEBBA and decided on 18mm broad skittles rather than the ones Alan produses normally which are 16.5mm. this is the maximum permissible. as the skittles are waisted at the base and then go up getting broader, i suggested that all i needed was 10mm off the base and that would be the 18mm. it also brings down the Centre of Gravity to the same height as the mushrooms. he hollowed them out underneath as well, whereas the tall original and the mushroom are flat and want to fall over just standing them up! the 1mm rim that mine stand on means they penetrate the baize deeper and get a firm footing. after a few games it takes generally the same amount of skill but you can nudge them a little harder and try tighter angles. the bad news: well, where the ball would contact the skittle is now even wider - probably by 1.5mm as well! Very pleased with them! regards Taffy |
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alanturner
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Saxophone is the only thing that gets blown , these days !
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Post by alanturner on Dec 27, 2016 1:31:47 GMT
I am sure its more like a 2.5mm rim..............Questions ;- 1 . Does the cross bar need to be longer ? 2.would 3mm dia. be better (currently 4mm dia)
Have used 2.5mm dia. fibre rod on some recent ones .
Best Regards
Alan
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Dec 27, 2016 9:12:35 GMT
you've lost me Alan? a rod that is 2.5mm? where are we talking of here?
Taffy
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alanturner
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Saxophone is the only thing that gets blown , these days !
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Post by alanturner on Dec 27, 2016 11:11:33 GMT
you've lost me Alan? a rod that is 2.5mm? where are we talking of here? Taffy Hi Taffy , the cross bar in the skittle . Would it be better if it was lighter ie 2.5 Dia. instead of 4mm.(less top heavy) Also is the cross bar long enough to stop them falling down the hole ? Alan |
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alanturner
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Saxophone is the only thing that gets blown , these days !
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Post by alanturner on Dec 27, 2016 11:13:11 GMT
you've lost me Alan? a rod that is 2.5mm? where are we talking of here? Taffy |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Dec 27, 2016 16:58:48 GMT
Hi Alan
They really are well made and with a lovely gloss finish, can't see any grain to even say they are wooden and the finish is holding up.
I'm into that kind of thing, yes it would lower the C of G further. even now, with 10mm removed they either fall or the y don't, they don't 'rock' anymore. I have to treat the lip of the hole with the same respect as the skittle. there was an imbalance before whereby I was worried about the skittle more than "rimming". as I say, they are equal now.
the other thing that came to mind was to start the base of the skittle as 18mm and have half the rim you see in the middle/waist of it. so that by having half a rim, you come in from 18mm and then you still have the same width as the old 16.5mm skittle did. I'll draw it for you....
Taffy
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Dec 27, 2016 17:10:18 GMT
Latest tests of a 'better game' have centred on two reds (presently because I bought the table with 7 whites only I have had to felt-tip dotty balls for reds) and that has launched the game into 'Turbo points'. big, big breaks of over 1,000 with skill. I hope to have a proper red or two soon and will leave 9 balls on the table so i never run out. The idea is that only one red at a time can be 'on the table' unless no other ball is available. The second red eventually comes into play full time when the gate drops and no other ball is available in the trough.
I've also changed the 100 'skittle/pin' for a mushroom so that I can get the 200 shot off the top cushion twixt the 20-30-20 holes. it has been very marginal and half the time I was getting the 100 skittle. now its a regular shot although anything going towards the 200 is playing with fire.... but for the first 5 minutes it is a great break builder.
the next thing will be to swop the values of the 50s with the 100 and try it unguarded at all.
I'm doing everything I can to make the game faster and reward daring shots......
an appeal: anyone who wants to sell me a set of 'easydrop' pockets?
Taffy
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alanturner
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Saxophone is the only thing that gets blown , these days !
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Post by alanturner on Dec 27, 2016 17:21:33 GMT
Hi Alan They really are well made and with a lovely gloss finish, can't see any grain to even say they are wooden and the finish is holding up. I'm into that kind of thing, yes it would lower the C of G further. even now, with 10mm removed they either fall or the y don't, they don't 'rock' anymore. I have to treat the lip of the hole with the same respect as the skittle. there was an imbalance before whereby I was worried about the skittle more than "rimming". as I say, they are equal now. the other thing that came to mind was to start the base of the skittle as 18mm and have half the rim you see in the middle/waist of it. so that by having half a rim, you come in from 18mm and then you still have the same width as the old 16.5mm skittle did. I'll draw it for you.... Taffy Yes , draw it ...........just to clarify ,please |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Dec 31, 2016 13:33:55 GMT
been trying the game without the 100 skittle which is how i bought the table, played about 5 games like this but couldn't take anymore of it. all the skill had gone out of it and also the ball would either go in the 100 hole or nothing as the next hole was too far away to get a bit of luck. Great way to introduce the game though.
changing the value of the 50s with the 100 is next but I can't see that working.
another one is:
when the gate has dropped, take the furthest ball first. these are worth little perhaps thus killing the game early! if we take balls hovering around the 10 we can get that ball down the hole on the edge of the 200/100/50 pocket!
I have to decide how to utilise the second red when the gate goes if it is still in the trough:
must be used first(no I hope not)
any order (maybe)
all the whites in the trough first followed by the red, then balls on the table top ((sounds very official and sensible)
don't use the second red at all if it is in the trough (can do....principles and ethics of sport apply here but what are they? what are the morals...?)
must be the very last ball of the match even taking balls from the table top first) = excellent. so the game always finishes with a "potential" 400 shot. what with two reds around when the gate goes and one of them mostly awaiting being the last ball of the game @400 then we have a serious 1,000 points up for grabs when the gate goes. THE GAME IS NOT OVER YET!
Taffy
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 31, 2016 18:30:01 GMT
been trying the game without the 100 skittle which is how i bought the table, played about 5 games like this but couldn't take anymore of it. all the skill had gone out of it and also the ball would either go in the 100 hole or nothing as the next hole was too far away to get a bit of luck. Great way to introduce the game though. changing the value of the 50s with the 100 is next but I can't see that working. another one is: when the gate has dropped, take the furthest ball first. these are worth little perhaps thus killing the game early! if we take balls hovering around the 10 we can get that ball down the hole on the edge of the 200/100/50 pocket! I have to decide how to utilise the second red when the gate goes if it is still in the trough: must be used first(no I hope not) any order (maybe) all the whites in the trough first followed by the red, then balls on the table top ((sounds very official and sensible) don't use the second red at all if it is in the trough (can do....principles and ethics of sport apply here but what are they? what are the morals...?) must be the very last ball of the match even taking balls from the table top first) = excellent. so the game always finishes with a "potential" 400 shot. what with two reds around when the gate goes and one of them mostly awaiting being the last ball of the game @400 then we have a serious 1,000 points up for grabs when the gate goes. THE GAME IS NOT OVER YET! Taffy Like the idea of furthest ball 1st once the bar is down  |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 1, 2017 15:48:39 GMT
it's that word 'exciting', it is a stray cat v a labrador, it is a 2 stroke v a 4 stroke, a family saloon v a cabriolet/soft top! london v the sticks,,,
so far, it has been 'two reds', 'furthest ball away', shape of the skittles is all that I've changed.
hardly setting the world alight is it?
cheers!
Taffy
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