SPECFLUE 4 PIN WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 2024 - GROUP DRAW

[Chris_Sav]

Group	Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	Player 4
Group 1	Gary Addison	Dave Lillie	Simon Coleman	Stuart Bloyce
Group 2	John Slee	Oscar Gerdes	Alan Giles	Colin Norledge
Group 3	Dan Ackland-Lang	Colin Southouse	Mike McAndrews	Jeremy Fry
Group 4	Graham Williams	James Brooke	Steve Hale	Nancy Ackland-Lang
Group 5	Jason Lawrence	Tony Jenner	Kevin Patrick	Debbie Ritchie
Group 6	Casey Parker	Jeff Bridges	Alan Mee	Alec Pope
Group 7	Matt Webb	Luke Cole	Dave Ritchie	John Tyson
Group 8	Andrew Lipscombe	Joe Foxon	Nathan Hensley	Mike Kempton
Group 9	Brendon Hoare	Chris Saville	Richard Cox	0llie Gooch
Group 10	Andy Hill	Jason Neal	Joe Andrews-Worth	Clive Thompson
Group 11	Sam Kerruish	Mal Spier	Connor Cansdale	Jim Balchin
Group 12	James Whittle	Paul Gooch	Tim Morgan	Jonny Hamblin
Group 13	Andy Clayton	Josh Humphries	Peter Whymark	Billy Anderson
Group 14	Peter Jensen	Brett Parker	Jordan Gunn	Jay McKay
Group 15	Joe Elleson	Peter Payne	Chris Ackland-Lang	Lee Barnes
Group 16	Fraser Brown	Peter Sturgeon	Richard Howe	Elaine Wright
Group 17	Damian Coates	Tracy Reeve	Lee Harman	James Baker
Group 18	Kieran Pettitt	Matt Pawley	Phil Osborne	Dave Tozer

[daveuk1]

Thanks Sav

Can all players in groups 1 to 9 please remember we intend to start play at 10am so we kindly ask all players involved in these groups to arrive by 9-45 to allow time to register.

There will be breakfast rolls available on arrival and hot food from 12ish through to 4pm. Cathy has said after that time people are welcome to bring in take away food, but we ask people be respectful and not start bringing in their own food until at least 5pm.

As always we will be raising money for The Suffolk Accident Service, SARS and any donations of raffle prizes or item we can auction off will be gratefully received.

See you all next month

Dave

[daveuk1]

I forgot to mention the prize money for this year is as follows
Winner of the main, world champ £100

Runner up of the main £50

Losing semi finalists in the main £25 each

Plate winner £50

Plate runner up £25

[tommo III]

What time does the 2nd phase (Groups 10 - 18) start, Dave ?

[daveuk1]

I think the plan is around midday.
I'm not certain because Jeremy has done a spreadsheet for the day and it's not the same as the schedule I came up with.
I will check with Jeremy and confirm the start time asap

[tommo III]

Thanks Dave, no rush.

As always I'll try to arrive with an hour or so to spare.

[stevehale]

Group Name Name Name Name


Group 1 Dave Ritchie Dave Lillie Simon Coleman Stuart Bloyce
Group 2 John Slee Oscar Gerdes Alan Giles Colin Norledge
Group 3 Doug Lang Colin Southouse Mike McAndrews Jeremy Fry
Group 4 Graham Williams James Brooke Steve Hale Nancy Ackland-Lang
Group 5 Jason Lawrence Tony Jenner Kevin Patrick Debbie Ritchie
Group 6 Matt Webb Jeff Bridges Alan Mee Alec Pope
Group 7 Andrew Lipscombe Luke Cole Nathan Hensley Mike Kempton
Group 8 Brendon Hoare John Tyson Richard Cox Ollie Gooch

Group 9 Andy Hill Jason Neal Joe Andrews-Worth Clive Thompson
Group 10 Sam Kerruish Mal Spier Connor Cansdale Damon Shipley
Group 11 James Whittle Paul Gooch Tim Morgan Jonny Hamblin
Group 12 Andy Clayton Ian Thacker Peter Whymark Billy Anderson
Group 13 Peter Jensen Brett Parker Pete Shipley Jay McKay
Group 14 Joe Elleson Peter Payne Chris Ackland-Lang Lee Barnes
Group 15 Fraser Brown Peter Sturgeon Richard Howe Elaine Wright
Group 16 Damian Coates Tracy Reeve Lee Harman James Baker
Group 17 Kieran Pettitt Matt Pawley Phil Osborne Dave Tozer

[billiardsmichael]

For those looking to follow results from afar...

sbbasl.leaguerepublic.com/matchHub.html

[Chris_Sav]

Last 32 of the main and a tie! Previous champs go out

Not in draw order

Billy Anderson	430 - 1720	Peter Payne
Chris Ackland-Lang	1160 - 2560	Dave Brewer
Colin Southouse	840 - 1210	Alan Mee
Fraser Brown	1210 - 1110	Joe Andrews-Worth
Ian Thacker	730 - 1400	Damon Shipley
Jeff Bridges	1860 - 1860	Kieran Pettitt
Joe Elleson	920 - 1440	Dave Lillie
John Slee	0 - 1730	Brendan Hoare
Lee Harman	1250 - 540	Clive Thompson
Matt Pawley	1160 - 1300	Pete Shipley
Nathan Hensley	730 - 1980	Luke Cole
Phil Osborne	2210 - 430	Jason Neal
Richard Cox	1860 - 410	Peter Sturgeon
Simon Coleman	1620 - 780	Debbie Ritchie
Steve Hale	1060 - 1760	Sam Kerruish
Tracy Reeve	1110 - 1290	Alan Giles

Last 16

Home Team		Away Team
Alan Mee	260 - 1680	Dave Lillie
Brendan Hoare	1170 - 1500	Alan Giles
Fraser Brown	790 - 1330	Lee Harman
Jeff Bridges	1700 - 1280	Phil Osborne
Pete Shipley	830 - 2270	Richard Cox
Peter Payne	1510 - 70	Damon Shipley
Sam Kerruish	1590 - 1300	Luke Cole
Simon Coleman	950 - 1360	Dave Brew

Quarter Final two leggers in Name Order

Home Team		Away Team
Alan Giles	1340 - 1230	Peter Payne
Dave Brewer	1370 - 990	Dave Lillie
Dave Lillie	1190 - 1380	Dave Brewer
Jeff Bridges	1150 - 2050	Lee Harman
Lee Harman	930 - 1880	Jeff Bridges
Peter Payne	1400 - 1600	Alan Giles
Richard Cox	1800 - 100	Sam Kerruish
Sam Kerruish	1850 - 950	Richard Cox

Don't know what happened to the semis on the website but Jeff Bridges appears to have beaten Richard Cox in the final

1340 - 1420 & 2530 - 60

[Chris_Sav]

Plate Prelim

Home Team		Away Team
Andy Hill	620 - 2190	Peter Jensen
James Baker	1060 - 990	Nancy Ackland-lang
Peter Whymark	1250 - 970	Richard Howe
Stuart Bloyce	600 - 2000	Dave Tozer

Plate Last 32

Home Team		Away Team
Alec Pope	190 - 1690	Mal Spier
Andy Clayton	2300 - 280	Dave Ritchie
Brett Parker	2090 - 990	Colin Norledge
Connor Cansdale	1720 - 1010	Jonny Hamblin
Damian Coates	970 - 1110	Oscar Gerdes
Dave Tozer	790 - 680	James Whittle
Graham Williams	0 - 710	Doug Lang
James Baker	260 - 1490	Jay McKay
Jeremy Fry	900 - 0	Lee Barnes
John Tyson	870 - 1380	Kevin Patrick
Matt Webb	1670 - 690	Andrew Lipscombe
Mike Kempton	780 - 1070	Paul Gooch
Mike McAndrews	880 - 1520	Ollie Gooch
Peter Jensen	880 - 1880	Jason Lawrence
Peter Whymark	1280 - 1180	Tim Morgan
Tony Jenner	1380 - 1010	Elaine Wright

Plate Last 16

Home Team		Away Team
Brett Parker	810 - 1040	Mal Spier
Connor Cansdale	1310 - 810	Andy Clayton
Jay McKay	980 - 1160	Jason Lawrence
Ollie Gooch	1090 - 420	Doug Lang
Oscar Gerdes	730 - 1310	Jeremy Fry
Paul Gooch	1240 - 600	Kevin Patrick
Peter Whymark	1070 - 640	Dave Tozer
Tony Jenner	1180 - 830	Matt Webb

Qtr Final Two Leggers in name order

Some awfully tight games

Home Team		Away Team
Connor Cansdale	1750 - 1200	Tony Jenner
Jason Lawrence	1250 - 580	Peter Whymark
Jeremy Fry	1260 - 1550	Paul Gooch
Mal Spier	1130 - 1080	Ollie Gooch
Ollie Gooch	1080 - 1210	Mal Spier
Paul Gooch	750 - 1820	Jeremy Fry
Peter Whymark	970 - 880	Jason Lawrence
Tony Jenner	890 - 1510	Connor Cansdale

Don't know what happened to the semis on the website but Jez Fry appears to have beaten Mal Spiers in the final

1770 - 1980 & 1900 - 1590

[billiardsmichael]

How come James Whittle won his group and yet went into the plate???

[billiardsmichael]

And sneaky tommo is through in third!

I guess the groups are being sorted wrong on the website? Should it be sorted by points diff instead of points scored??

[Chris_Sav]

I believe they came up with a cross group ranking system and the top thirty two players, regardless of position in their group, went into the main, rest to the plate.

How the ranking system worked I cannot say but don't shoot the messenger as I may be totally wrong.

James only had four points and group 11 was a very low scoring group so I guess his coefficient was very low. I cannot make the scores add up in the web version of his group so, again, I may be totally wrong.

[tommo III]

Well done to Sav and Michael on some excellent armchair coverage.
A partial answer to Sav's semi-finals query ... Richard Cox beat Norwich's Dave Brewer and Jeff Bridges beat current Sudbury No.1 Alan Giles in the Main; whilst Mal Spier beat Jason Lawrence and Jeremy Fry beat Connor Cansdale in the Plate.
So well done to Third-time-lucky-in-the-Final Jeff Bridges and well done too to Coxy, adding to last year's Plate Win.

As has been noted, a new slant on the rules this year has courted some controversy:  rough on James Whittle yes, and fortuitous for moi, but one huge benefit was that it enabled the last 32's to be seeded thus, 1 v 32, 2 v 31 etc, rather than having the problem of how to fit in the winner and runner-up of the extra group 17.

Anyway, the day was (as always in Suffolk) most enjoyable and very well run. Huge thanks to the organisers: Dave Lillie background work with booking, Paul Gooch for venue and Cathy for her work in the kitchen, those manning the bar and the young lass who worked her socks off all day collecting the glasses, and of course Steve Hale updating of results with occasional help, and acting as auctioneer at the end of the huge raffle conducted by Jeremy who of course owns the set of tables.

The day before was the Blind Pairs, sponsored by Alan Mee and hopefully some notes will be provided on that.

For anyone interested, the improvements to Junction 26 on the A12 have now been completed, which has cut my journey time to 2 hours.

Finally, it was great to meet the Norfolk lads and receive a favourable reaction on their future participation in this and possibly other organised events involving other counties. And we may even see some of them joining the Forum !  
 

[stevehale]

Because of the increase in the number of entries this year we changed the format of qualifying. It was decided that the top 32 players would be based on points, 2pts for a win 1 for a draw. In the event of any ties it would then be based on points accumulated over the three group games then if still tied on points difference.

The knockout sections were then seeded based on league finishing positions. The plate had 36 entries so there was a preliminary round played between those who finished in the bottom 8.

The event worked very well throughout the day with no hitches and with the possibility of even more entries than received this year it’s certainly a format that we will be looking to continue with.

Although it may seem slightly unfair, there have been occasions in the past where a player who has won 2 group games but finished 3rd in the group missing out on qualifying for the main draw yet a player in another group only won 1 match but still went through.

Many thanks go to all players from across the country who made the trip down to Sudbury this weekend. It’s been a truly successful event again with a lot of money raised for our chosen charity.

Billiards World Championship Group Rank....numbers (201.81 KB)

[Chris_Sav]

Steve,

The attachment you posted with the rankings does not open  as far as I can see.

To others, please do not criticise how Sudbury run their competitions when the full facts are not known.

[daveuk1]

Mar 23, 2024 18:29:31 GMT billiardsmichael said:

How come James Whittle won his group and yet went into the plate???

James came second in his group, Tim Morgan won group 11. There was an input error on the scores in one of the games, the official spreadsheet used on the day that all players could see on the day was correct.

[Chris_Sav]

Thanks Dave

That explains why the web version does not add up for group 11 and should not be quoted from.

Cannot open Steve's attachment so have emailed him.

[edit] managed to convert it to pdf and it does not contain the mistake on the web version

Attachments:

Billiards-World-Championship-Group-Rank.pdf (42.59 KB)

[bobhall]

Can I ask one question why did the winner play on the same table in the groups then in the last 32 and then in the last 16

[Chris_Sav]

Cannot see where you get this from, Tables are not on the published stats. I have asked you not to post unsubstantiated gossip previously in this thread.

Please validate your assertion or delete it and I will delete this.

I repeat, if you have a question that might cause offence, then send a PM or email the tournament organiser. Do not post inflammatory questions on this forum.

[bobhall]

Mar 24, 2024 21:14:36 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Cannot see where you get this from, Tables are not on the published stats. I have asked you not to post unsubstantiated gossip previously in this thread.

Please validate your assertion or delete it and I will delete this.

I repeat, if you have a question that might cause offence, then send a PM or email the tournament organiser. Do not post inflammatory questions on this forum.

Maybe you want to keep out of it sav seeing as I got it from a player who played and I’m asking a question that can be answered on here it’s not inflammatory it’s you jumping to conclusions and you need to sit back and relax

[Chris_Sav]

My previous post was speaking as a moderator.

Do not post inflammatory posts on this forum, especially those that are unsubstantiated gossip and intended to cause Sudbury embarrassment.

I repeat. Substantiate your post or delete it.

Question a moderator's decision again and you are banned, see the rules.

[Chris_Sav]

Tournament spreadsheet from tournament organisers shows Bridges played his group games on table six in the morning, last 32 on table 1, last 16 on table 6 (again but much later), table 4 in the quarters, table 8 in the semi and table 9 in the final.

[daveuk1]

A massive congratulations to Jeff Bridges for being crowned the 4 pin world champ, and also a big pat on the back to Richard Cox for making it through to final. I have to say Richard was a true gentleman throughout the day, even after he had to endure train journey up to Suffolk, arriving a few minutes late meaning he had to play his group games straight off without a break. It was also great to see seven Norwich lads turning up and embracing the day.

On a personal note can I please send out my thanks to Brendan, James, Brett and especially Alan Mee for all their help setting up the tables, without them it would have been a very long day for me which would have cut down on my drinking time.
The hall has been booked for next year and we have moved it back by one week in the hope it now won't clash with Kent.

All I have had is positive feedback back from the players involved.


Thank you to everyone who turned up and played and helped make the day a great success, this event is increasing in popularity every year, which can only be a good thing for bar billiards.

We will be posting details of the team four by four event in the near future.

Thanks again to everyone

Dave

[alanturner]

Mar 23, 2024 23:48:11 GMT tommo III said:

Well done to Sav and Michael on some excellent armchair coverage.
A partial answer to Sav's semi-finals query ... Richard Cox beat Norwich's Dave Brewer and Jeff Bridges beat current Sudbury No.1 Alan Giles in the Main; whilst Mal Spier beat Jason Lawrence and Jeremy Fry beat Connor Cansdale in the Plate.
So well done to Third-time-lucky-in-the-Final Jeff Bridges and well done too to Coxy, adding to last year's Plate Win.

As has been noted, a new slant on the rules this year has courted some controversy:  rough on James Whittle yes, and fortuitous for moi, but one huge benefit was that it enabled the last 32's to be seeded thus, 1 v 32, 2 v 31 etc, rather than having the problem of how to fit in the winner and runner-up of the extra group 17.

Anyway, the day was (as always in Suffolk) most enjoyable and very well run. Huge thanks to the organisers: Dave Lillie background work with booking, Paul Gooch for venue and Cathy for her work in the kitchen, those manning the bar and the young lass who worked her socks off all day collecting the glasses, and of course Steve Hale updating of results with occasional help, and acting as auctioneer at the end of the huge raffle conducted by Jeremy who of course owns the set of tables.

The day before was the Blind Pairs, officiated by Alan Mee and hopefully some notes will be provided on that

From the Friday night pairs £205 ( Additional £1 donated by Mike Mc Andrews -- who cant count , The odd £1 was put in the SARS collection bucket )  was raised in entry fees .. all of which will be donated to SARS ( Suffolk Accident Rescue Services ) THANK YOU EVERY BODY .... Results ...............Who really cares about results on a Friday night    ...oh yes Tommo ..and maybe them that win !!  

Well done everybody and thanks again .  
 

[JB]

Can you confirm the date for next year please

[billiardsmichael]

Mar 24, 2024 9:47:12 GMT daveuk1 said:

Mar 23, 2024 18:29:31 GMT billiardsmichael said:

How come James Whittle won his group and yet went into the plate???

James came second in his group, Tim Morgan won group 11. There was an input error on the scores in one of the games, the official spreadsheet used on the day that all players could see on the day was correct.

I see Tim Morgan was in the plate anyway 

[tommo III]

I don't consider that anyone who didn't take part in an event themselves has the right to criticise it publicly.

The Suffolk organisation is (and always has been) first class. If there is a slight difference between 4-Pin and 3-Pin in how qualifications are decided, due to the event being over-subscribed, then that's their business. Talking of which, having no cap on entries with no-one turned away has to be good for bar billiards.

This event is one of only a few where results are updated in real time (Jersey, Guernsey and WBBA being the others) and this does not happen without a decent website and loads of diligent effort (in this case by Steve Hale and possibly some additional help).  I would like to express my own gratitude for this, Suffolk BBA certainly do not warrant any negative comments.

As for the Tipsters, gone are the days where we could have a Poll on whether we want it to count or not, but at the end of the day, it's supposed to be a bit of FUN.
 

[billiardsmichael]

Mar 25, 2024 12:36:38 GMT tommo III said:

I don't consider that anyone who didn't take part in an event themselves has the right to criticise it publicly.

I'd vehemently disagree with you on this Tommo. Although I'd happily accept that any problems highlighted by people at the event (of which tbf it sounds like there were few/if any) should be considered more important than those highlighted by others.

There are some of us who have played at Sudbury before and very much intend to go back (I include myself in this) who may have an "outsiders" perspective that may be of some value.

I don't think there has been any criticism of the actual website... Dave said there had been an input error and this has been corrected. The fact that Suffolk have put the effort into having a website where you can track what was going on is excellent - as you no doubt could tell I very much made use of it! Although while I'm at it, I couldn't find the results from previous years... I'm sure they are there somewhere - hopefully someone can point out what I'm doing wrong not to see them.

Both of the years I've been to Sudbury it's been a very well run competition, very friendly and I've always appreciated the ability to see what's going on either online or via the monitor at the tournament desk. However I will make one comment from afar which is that I think it very unfair that you can win a group and not qualify for the main. I actually like the idea of the "ranking system" for the knockout - that seems quite innovative and gives something more to play for in the groups - some times you know you're going to have a horrid draw because you're paired with "the group of death" but with this you are rewarded for that extra bit of effort in the group stage, however it may be a consideration for next year that the winner of each group automatically qualifies for the main (ranked 1-17 via ranking system??), then the ranking system determines the remaining players (so this year 15 players from the 17 groups).

What may have caused some of the confusion is that the "ranking format" wasn't posted on proboards pre-tournament (as far as I can tell anyway). Steve made a well detailed post on Facebook that explained the situation, so I presume all the actual players were aware of the rules pre-tournament. Perhaps any similar statement can be copied and pasted onto here next year?

That's my ha'penny from afar - I'm sure the Suffolk organisers will consider what they liked and didn't like from this and previous years and choose the format for next year depending on what they determine is best. There's always someone who will complain (usually me) but that doesn't mean we are right! I look forward to hopefully being at Sudbury next year!

[BB Warrior]

Mar 25, 2024 12:36:38 GMT tommo III said:

I don't consider that anyone who didn't take part in an event themselves has the right to criticise it publicly.

The Suffolk organisation is (and always has been) first class. If there is a slight difference between 4-Pin and 3-Pin in how qualifications are decided, due to the event being over-subscribed, then that's their business. Talking of which, having no cap on entries with no-one turned away has to be good for bar billiards. 

This is not intended as a "criticism" of the organisation of the event, merely an "observation" from someone who did not take part in the competition who regularly participates in other national tournaments and is also a member of the AEBBA Ranking Committee.

Firstly, I would agree with Tommo that the organisers of any event have the absolute right to determine the format that they wish to use for their own competition.... and there clearly are a number of different ways that can be done.

My personal opinion is that any player that wins their Group in a competition should automatically proceed into the main event of any subsequent knock-out stage of the event.  Precedence should then be given to runners-up within the groups to make up the necessary numbers that the organisers want to take part in that knock-out stage. If, having allocated positions to all group winners and runners-up in the main competition there are still spaces, at that stage the best 3rd place players should be added to make up the relevant numbers.

In cases like this competition, the organisers needed to fill 32 places in the Main Knock-Out from 17 Groups, so clearly it is not possible to have all of the winners and runners-up progressing. Having filled 17 spaces with Group Winners, that leaves 15 spaces to be taken by the runners-up. At that stage, the organisers would be able to use their own format as to which 15 players progress into the Main Competition, either excluding the bottom 2 runners-up based on a ranking system (as was used here) or by having a play-off between the bottom 4 runners-up (as happens in Jersey World Championships) which is probably the fairest way to decide that as it means it is determined by actually playing a game rather than just based on statistics.

To me, it seems very strange that, if, as has been reported here, a Group Winner ends up being placed in the Plate Competition, that players who finished 3rd in their Groups are then placed in the Main Competition. That just doesn't seem a fair reward for winning your group.

Briefly putting on my "AEBBA Ranking Committee" member hat, as different levels of ranking points are awarded between the main competition and plate competitions, the format used here does raise a few concerns that I know the committee have reservations about going forward.