Bar Billiards Ltd

[SirKT]

Hi everyone
I`ve transferred this topic onto this site because it doesn`t just involve Oxon

Ken Hussey rung me yesterday for a general chat and then threw in the bombshell !
His boss has told him to "get rid of all the Bar Billiard tables they are currently renting out".
I knew that sooner or later his boss (being any sort of businessman) would look at the figures and say enough is enough. Bar Billiards doesn`t make any money, full stop !!
I knew Ken`s last boss Richard quite well, and even he wanted to do something drastic, but Ken put him off.
If he hadn`t had the Bar Billiard background that most of us know he had, this sort of thing could have happened earlier.

From what Ken told me, it obviously can`t happen immediately, but they will start taking them out soon.

The deal on the table is, any table on site can be bought for £850 + vat, not cheap i know, but if a few people got together and managed to buy any up, they would probably get their money back in a couple of years.
I can`t see many other options, but people will have to get together and do something :-/

I hope that nobody will take this out on Ken, he isn`t the boss and like i said earlier, if it hadn`t have been for him, this could have happened years ago.

I am hoping that he will post something on the proboards for everyone to see.
He did say anyone can ring him on his mobile or at the office to answer any questions.

Office 01344 626244
Mob. [phone]

[peetee]

Many thanks for transfering to this thread.

I Will be talking to Ken Hussey again before our EGM on Tuesday 1st April.

Peetee :(

[Chris_Sav]

Can I suggest that we leave it to KT/Pete to talk to Ken Hussey initially. We will not do ourselves any favours if loads of people pester Ken.

If Ken wants to post a statement and timescale on this forum then get him to contact me directly and I will set him up an account directly.

Let's keep this constructive and not shoot the messenger.

Sav.

[Colemanator]

Can anybody clarify this question, Is it the tables that are on a share basis that are going or is it ALL tables, some pubs pay a £12 + vat per week others are emptied by BB ltd, I'm led to believe that it's the profit share ones that re going?

If it is all tables and they are up for sale then I can't see much short term future for many leagues ???

[SirKT]

Not absolutely sure Ian, that matter you will have to take up with Ken himself :)

This is indeed serious, but it's not as if we haven't known it coming for years.
We talked about it in Surrey a while back and agreed in principle that 4-person syndicates would be a better idea than expecting the venues to buy the tables. (Reason: what if a venue falls out of favour with the players, or a new guvnor comes in and decides there is no place for bar billiards ?)
The Colemanator raises a good point about the old arrangement and new arrangement: I imagine that those under the 'old arrangement' would be targeted first, suggesting a short stay of execution for those under the 'new arrangement'. But from the sound of it, no further 'new arrangements' are likely to be offered.
A few years ago Sav published on his dd.co.uk website a list of the pubs in the South-east with B B Limited tables: there were 18 in Surrey and 21 in Kent. Anyone any idea on roughly how many in the other counties ?

[Colemanator]

The old arrangement will be no arrangement pretty soon, sounds like then that those on the old will not be offered the new, buying is best IMO for all, at least you have control over the table and landlords would be keener possibly that there would be no outlay.

There will, of course, be casualties, I can't see pub managers buying tables, it will have to be the players. Some teams will not want to fork out a grand on a table, some teams have 5 players, some have more, 200 each for five players doesn't sound a lot, bear in mind costs for recovering, new balls etc.
People fall out as well, there are many things to consider.
In the long run it may be the best thing that can happen as all tables would be privately owned, and also the prices on ebay may come down if the market is flooded with them.

[Chris_Sav]

Ken Hussey has phoned me this morning.

Unfortunately he had to cut the call short.

Yes it's fact that they are pulling the plug on renting bar billiard tables.

Cost to buy is £850 plus VAT as-is, no refurb.

I have asked him for a statement for the board and he is going to email me.

Sav.

[Chris_Sav]

A further converstion with Ken

The facts

This is a potentially terminal threat to the game nationally as we know it.

All rental will finish

To buy is £850 plus vat as-is

All league subsidies finish this season

There were 2240 tables there now 128 rented

Ken needs to know by the end of April if you are interested in buying

There will be no phasing across counties.

Low income old share agreement tables will be the first to go.

Leisure Link will be making a similar announcement in a couple of months

Please do not swamp Ken with phone calls, league secretaries and above may approach him

All contact should be via email if possible to [e-mail].

Sav

[barbelman]

This is a but predictable day and one that will cause a lot of small leagues (such as mine in Witney) to cease to exist and severely diminish even the stronger leagues. I think some of the stronger/keener teams will buy their tables between them but given the transient nature of landlords these days, few are going to be willing to shell out over a grand to keep the table in situ.

Even if the team buys the table (and let's be honest, some will not be able to do so) I can foresee all sorts of problems arising with profits, insurance and access for other pub-goers. Arghh.

No-one will blame Ken H, I know he has supported us hugely over the years, and I hope that Bar Billiards Ltd do the decent thing and change their name to something more appropriate.....

It will be interesting to see how quickly the AEBBA move on this and how they disseminate advice and information to ALL their members.

sad times
Tony

[NigelS]

Yes sad times indeed Tony.

As you know in Sussex we have Tarratt Tables and i do sincerly hope they do not take the same course of action. In brighton we have 7 Tarratt tables and 3 that are privately owned. So if Tarratts took out their tables tomorrow we would lose 7 venues and 9 of our 15 teams.

I imagine most leagues have a similar structure regarding tables.

I sincerly hope league commitees can orgainise something to help save their leagues. Whether it be the league buying the tables or the respective teams. If people can split the cost they should gain their money back after a couple of years, I know this from having my own table in a pub.

It is time for us all to work together, and I am sure the forum can help play its part, to save our game, becuase if we lose the game out of pubs that is I am afraid the beginning of the end.

What will be the vehicle for informing Leagues/Counties ? Only with B-B Ltd requiring the decision to be made individually on each table by end April, it sounds as if there is not a moment to be lost: We enter April tomorrow.

The AEBBA should be officially informed - immediately. And then it should be formally drawn to the attention of each County Secretary as a matter of urgency.

The Forum should not be held responsible for doing the dirty work - Agreed ?

But of course much discussion can take place and we can recommend plans of action if and where necessary.

[barbelman]

nigels said:

Yes sad times indeed Tony.

As you know in Sussex we have Tarratt Tables and i do sincerly hope they do not take the same course of action. In brighton we have 7 Tarratt tables and 3 that are privately owned. So if Tarratts took out their tables tomorrow we would lose 7 venues and 9 of our 15 teams.

Hi Nigel

Are Tarrant tables a viable proposition for us now BB Ltd are off the scene or is their stock of tables at a minimum too? I would guess that they are geographically limited to the south and it would not be worthwhile for them to travel to the Midlands.
Are there other alternatives.......anyone? Some teams just would not be able to afford 2-300 quid each and although leagues may be able to help a little, when you operate on a minimal balance (£2K) it doesn't go very far!

cheers
Tony

[Chris_Sav]

Re Tommo's comments

Ken is going to ring around each county.

This is hot off the press from Friday.

Re AEBBA, I thought I had better be proactive and get things moving. Like it or not this forum is the only national platform. If people bury their heads it will be too late.

Sav

Well Tony, I can answer that one for you.

And it's as you surmise, Tarratt has often been quoted as saying that he runs the bar billiards half of his business at a loss, and it has to be subsidised from the Pool side of his operation.

[Colemanator]

I think that in the short term there will be alot drop out, even if one team buys their board alot won't and that will be a case of 'do we carry on' with say 2 or 3 venues.

It's the clock timer that will be problamatic for owners.

[barbelman]

chimp said:

I think that in the short term there will be alot drop out, even if one team buys their board alot won't and that will be a case of 'do we carry on' with say 2 or 3 venues.

It's the clock timer that will be problamatic for owners.

Agreed Ian - maintenance will be an issue and when you run on 5 venues as we do you only need one or two to drop out and that's it........

I'm sure Witney can sort something out as we are all so close (as are Northampton) but it WILL be problematic to say the least!

Tony

[barbelman]

sav said:

Re AEBBA, I thought I had better be proactive and get things moving. Like it or not this forum is the only national platform. If people bury their heads it will be too late.
Sav

But don't hold your breath...... :-/

Tony

[milhouse]

Is the price of tables negotiable ? £1,000 for a table is a lot if they are not going to refurbish or re-cloth them first.
I am very much interested in buying a table, but the one we have in the Tandem is not worth that much. The back legs are bent because it keeps getting moved and it needs re-clothing. To buy the table and then have that work done will add another few hundred pounds onto the price.

[milhouse]

barbelman said:

Agreed Ian - maintenance will be an issue and when you run on 5 venues as we do you only need one or two to drop out and that's it........

I'm sure Witney can sort something out as we are all so close (as are Northampton) but it WILL be problematic to say the least!

Tony

The Eynsham league is in the same position, only 5 venues with 7 teams. Also it is only 3-a-side.

[Ros]

This is devastating news indeed :(

Like Nigel, I can speak from experience from owning a team table in a pub and I will post again with some thoughts and ideas which might be helpful.

But let's just back up a moment here and examine this "gun at the heads" approach being taken by BBL:

£850 + VAT on an "as is" basis is not exactly a bargain basement price, it might be fair on a table that has recently been recovered and is cosmetically good, but is a poor bargain (compared to ebay prices) for any that need recovering or are a little battle scarred.

Of course, buying "the devil you know" might seem good and buying the table "in situ" removes the need for transportation.

What are Bar Billiards Ltd going to do with 128 tables if the teams/pubs/leagues don't buy them? They certainly won't make that sort of money if they dump them all on ebay in quick succession, and they would have to collect them, store them and refurbish them in order to do that.

They have to also understand that if they destroy the leagues, they also destroy much of the private market for the tables - many (if not most) of the tables sold on ebay go into the homes of league players.

It seems to me there is considerable scope for negotiation here, both on any deadlines for purchasing decisions and on the price.

It is in BBL's interests to have these tables bought by by the teams/players/pubs - and they don't hold all the aces here because there is little they can do that is worse than they have already announced.

[barbelman]

milhouse said:

Is the price of tables negotiable ? £1,000 for a table is a lot if they are not going to refurbish or re-cloth them first.
I am very much interested in buying a table, but the one we have in the Tandem is not worth that much. The back legs are bent because it keeps getting moved and it needs re-clothing. To buy the table and then have that work done will add another few hundred pounds onto the price.

I think you'll find it's a take it or leave it decision Mark.
There will have to be consolidation of teams to a degree and like anything else a table is only worth what the market forces say it's worth - material cost doesn't really come into it! There should be a degree of return on your potential investment anyway as long as your landlord/manager is agreeable. I really don't think we are going to have many choices if we wish to continue playing.......

I feel a lot of hurried meetings coming on. :-/

cheers
Tony

[NigelS]

barbelman said:

Hi Nigel

Are Tarrant tables a viable proposition for us now BB Ltd are off the scene or is their stock of tables at a minimum too? I would guess that they are geographically limited to the south and it would not be worthwhile for them to travel to the Midlands.
Are there other alternatives.......anyone? Some teams just would not be able to afford 2-300 quid each and although leagues may be able to help a little, when you operate on a minimal balance (£2K) it doesn't go very far!

cheers
Tony

Hi Tony

I stand to be corrected on this but I don’t believe Tarratts have a large supply of tables. They only have 6 (I think) for competitions and I doubt they have many more than that to provide for league use. Also as you say they are Southern based and I would imagine them unlikely to be willing to supply tables further afield.

I do have a contact number though, Tony, if you want tomake any enquiries with them

[SirKT]

charlady said:

This is devastating news indeed :(

Like Nigel, I can speak from experience from owning a team table in a pub and I will post again with some thoughts and ideas which might be helpful.

But let's just back up a moment here and examine this "gun at the heads" approach being taken by BBL:

£850 + VAT on an "as is" basis is not exactly a bargain basement price, it might be fair on a table that has recently been recovered and is cosmetically good, but is a poor bargain (compared to ebay prices) for any that need recovering or are a little battle scarred.

Of course, buying "the devil you know" might seem good and buying the table "in situ" removes the need for transportation.

What are Bar Billiards Ltd going to do with 128 tables if the teams/pubs/leagues don't buy them? They certainly won't make that sort of money if they dump them all on ebay in quick succession, and they would have to collect them, store them and refurbish them in order to do that.

They have to also understand that if they destroy the leagues, they also destroy much of the private market for the tables - many (if not most) of the tables sold on ebay go into the homes of league players.

It seems to me there is considerable scope for negotiation here, both on any deadlines for purchasing decisions and on the price.

It is in BBL's interests to have these tables bought by by the teams/players/pubs - and they don't hold all the aces here because there is little they can do that is worse than they have already announced.

I was told the price is non-negotiable & i`m afraid they do have a waiting list for buying tables Ros, if we don`t buy them, they will be sold on, either here or abroad.
It`s amazing how many get exported, yet there aren`t any leagues outside of the UK, Jersey & Guernsey.

[Chris_Sav]

Re Bar Billiards Ltd.

Ken told me that, obviously, it would not be all at once, but a steady progression starting with the least profitable. We are not looking long term though.

Ken also said they have a waiting list on tables for private ownership. Target audience apart from Yanks, in my experience, are fifty somethings who used to play the game thirty years ago and now have money and nostalgia. All of those sales will be lost to us.


Sav

sav said:

fifty somethings who used to play the game thirty years ago and now have money and nostalgia. Sav

Surely those words describe 80% of the current bar billiards playing world - youngsters being in the minority ? ;D

I think export sounds more likely, with a similar deal to the US one in the 1980's on the cards.

barbelman said:

sav said:

Re AEBBA, I thought I had better be proactive and get things moving. Like it or not this forum is the only national platform. If people bury their heads it will be too late.
Sav

But don't hold your breath...... :-/
Tony

Can confirm that Surrey got the news last Friday, and will be calling their E.G.M shortly.

[DA-DM]

where will tables come from for competitions/opens etc ?

[Chris_Sav]

da said:

where will tables come from for competitions/opens etc ?

They were sold off two years ago and Brian Daniels from Pompey hires them out to all of the leagues apart from Kent who use mine.

Sav

[MID]

Hi DA

The competition tables that Bar Billiards Ltd owned, were sold to Brian Daniels over a year ago, and Brian and Tony will continue with supplying Comp/Open tables from Portsmouth. Nothing will change.

Portsmouth are lucky as I think only one team rents a table, the one thing I would hate to see is Landlords going out and hiring the MDF tables/modern tables, that happened in Portsmouth last year (without the teams knowing) and 4 teams left a pub, so we lost another venue.

Take care
Mary