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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Aug 10, 2008 0:33:01 GMT
i feel for charity it would be a great day where we do a limes tournement as this will encourage new players and make money i am sure with tarrot being asked nicely we can get the tables in this way any one who wants to enter can and it doesnt affect the season just earns money for charity at the end of the day it is not what day we can make amazin or how we can make the season longer or shorter it is about the charity we are supporting and that is the main subject in the topic in my eyes. Well said young hallboy. I think the problem is getting enough support for a one day event knowing how adverse M-S are to changes. As one committee member said to me very recently "were not here to support a charity". I think originally the charity cup was developed to flesh out a dwindling season when team membership was particularly low. I agree with your sentiment though! But my fund raising idea I listed earlier on this thread would allow us to donate a decent amount of money providing everyone actually did it.
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Post by bobhall on Aug 10, 2008 1:08:37 GMT
well who ever said were not here to support a charity might as well just remember if i play them i hope to stuff the tight stingy pratt this game is not a world amazing task it is for people to not only meet new people but learn a new game and have a good time and if doing this we can raise money for a worthy cause so be it and i will do everything in my power to make sure we raise a reasonable amount for charity so i say all the ammatuers like my self and all of the more worthy plays work as a team and cum up with 1 idea and make sure its runs a success
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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Aug 10, 2008 13:11:21 GMT
well who ever said were not here to support a charity might as well just remember if i play them i hope to stuff the tight stingy pratt this game is not a world amazing task it is for people to not only meet new people but learn a new game and have a good time and if doing this we can raise money for a worthy cause so be it and i will do everything in my power to make sure we raise a reasonable amount for charity so i say all the ammatuers like my self and all of the more worthy plays work as a team and cum up with 1 idea and make sure its runs a success And again well said young hallboy, I share your passion and your enthusiasm, oh if only the rest of the league felt the same way!!! Something will be sorted out I am very confident of that. Failing that we will arrange several Sunday BBQ's round yours and play the competition between as many like minded souls as we can muster. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 11, 2008 6:48:57 GMT
And again well said young hallboy, I share your passion and your enthusiasm, oh if only the rest of the league felt the same way!!! Indeed...... if only! So far, I have only had 2 e-mails and 1 text in reply to the e-mail I sent round on Saturday from anybody who has not already posted a reply here on the Forum..........! :( One e-mail said that he thought that we would only be playing 14 League games (playing teams only within your own Division) while the other said that he wouldn't want to play the Charity Cup at all. :'( :-X The text message (correctly) pointed out that it would only be 4 weeks (not 5 as I had put) to play the games in Groups of 4, but didn't express any view on which way to play it..... or if we should play it at all! ::) Possibly, some people will not see the message I sent until they go to work today, so I will see what replies I receive in the next couple of days........ but unless there is a degree of support to play the Charity Cup outside of the few here, possibly we should just concentrate on arranging a Masters Competition and maybe some form of Individual Summer Competition for those of us that are enthusiastic about playing.....!! :P
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Post by specialone on Aug 11, 2008 7:52:54 GMT
If I am not mistaken we have played two summer competitions in the last twelve months. The first one was called the begining of the season, and the second was called the end of the season, both of which took place in the summer. Whilst I quite enjoyed playing in shorts and sandals, last season was far too long.
I have tried to read all the posts on this thread, and I think everyone has missed the obvious.
Two seperate leagues would give us 14 league games, 7 charity group games, add the team cup and charity semi, games and we have the ideal length season.
The summer is then free for the keenest players to play Limes, Masters, Summer leagues, and Watney Manns
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 11, 2008 8:57:53 GMT
If I am not mistaken we have played two summer competitions in the last twelve months. The first one was called the begining of the season, and the second was called the end of the season, both of which took place in the summer. Whilst I quite enjoyed playing in shorts and sandals, last season was far too long. I have tried to read all the posts on this thread, and I think everyone has missed the obvious. Two seperate leagues would give us 14 league games, 7 charity group games, add the team cup and charity semi, games and we have the ideal length season. The summer is then free for the keenest players to play Limes, Masters, Summer leagues, and Watney Manns It was my understanding, and I believe that of the Committee based on our recent meeting, that people preferred to play "everybody" in the League on a home & away basis, rather than just those within their own division...... and that playing just League matches was preferable to playing Charity Cup matches. ::) Possibly, the playing format for the new season should have been decided at the AGM rather than being left to the Committee to arrange? That way we could have put it to the vote and let the teams (well, at least those that attended! :-X) decide, which would have enabled to fixture list to be completed much earlier. Speaking personally, I would certainly prefer to play just "Premier" Division Teams as (generally speaking) the tables are normally better than some of those in Division 1......!! >:( :P :-X However, I also strongly believe that we should "do our bit" both to raise money for Charity..... and also to try to encourage new players to play the game and improve the overall playing standards within the League.
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TIR
Full Forum Member
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Post by TIR on Aug 11, 2008 9:30:49 GMT
What you all seem to have forgotten is that this seasons league fixture format was agreed at the last comittee meeting, so any suggestion of extending the season is a complete waste of time.
A 35 week season is long anyway, but surely 32 competitive matches is enough for most people.
The only realistic way the charity can be held this season is as a one day event.
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 11, 2008 9:45:01 GMT
The possibility of playing the Charity Cup with 4 groups with 4 teams in each was discussed, but the general feeling was that last season was too long (not in my opinion! :-X) and that some teams would not want to support it next season as there will be 4 extra league games. :'( I would love to see a Mid-Sussex Masters event taking place, I think that we now have a strong enough league to justify this and there would be support for it. ;D Possibly we could hold this in conjunction with a Charity Cup Day (either a team or individual event?) over a weekend to help to spread the cost of hiring the tables if there was sufficient interest from the teams / players? My company would happily sponsor some (maybe all, depending on the price?) of the cost of the hiring of the tables for the weekend to enable us to get it off the ground. More thoughts welcomed from Mid-Sussex players.....!! ??? ;) Hi Trevor, no I certainly hadn't forgotten that....... hence my earlier post shown above suggesting that a one day event could have been an option. However, from the replies here on the Forum, it would seem that some people within the League would prefer the Charity Cup to be retained as part of the League format rather than as a "one-off one day Event". My subsequent e-mail to member teams was intended to find out if the majority of teams agreed with the views posted here, in which case maybe the Committee would have needed to look at the fixtures again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 9:55:28 GMT
I think originally the charity cup was developed to flesh out a dwindling season when team membership was particularly low. Just to put the record straight, the Charity League (and Horsham League's Charity Cup) came about as a result of the demise in 1990 of the Crawley League. The League was obliged to dispose of its assets and put the items of most value on display one night and invited officials along from the Sussex County Association, Horsham, Billingshurst and Mid Sussex. Each organisation was allowed to make its choice of an item and all the Crawley League asked was that a 'worthy cause' would come out of the selection. Remember that some of the cups fashioned in the 1950's were of solid silver ! The Sussex and the Billingshurst made the more modest choices, and used their acquisitions to improve their existing trophy line-ups and re-dedicated them as appropriate. Horsham and Mid Sussex -as the closest neighbours - got the best two and kept their side of the bargain by inaugurating Charity competitions. Horsham's first Charity Cup was held in 1991/92 and Horse and Groom A were the winners, with rather fittingly, Crawley Club A being worthy Runners-up. Mid Sussex's Charity League got off the ground a year later, and was on a grander scale, known as the "Whitbread Charity League" as it was backed up by a sponsorship package (This was changed to the "Shaves Thatch Charity Cup competition" in 1996 when a new sponsor was found). Far from being a period when bar billiards in Mid Sussex was in the doldrums, 1992/93 was a Golden Era: both the Premier and the First division had eleven teams, and the Z's won with the Brewers A runners-up. ;D The records show that in that season Shaun 'SpecialOne' Morris had the highest away score of 11,300 and Jim 'SilverFox' Greenstead the highest away break of 9880. The inaugual Charity League was won by the Kings Head, Burgess Hill with the Z's runners-up.
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 11, 2008 10:03:32 GMT
Thanks Tommo.... it is nice to find out about some of the history of the League. ;D 8-)
It would be a crying shame to lose it...... due to apathy. >:(
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Aug 11, 2008 10:13:53 GMT
The season was too long last year and alot of people in the league said so! If i am correct in thinking that there is still going to be a Charity team KO then My suggestion is play the charity league team KO, £5 per team to enter, that gives £80 to start off with if all 16 teams enter, then it is up to the teams to add to it in any way they can. Before i took over captancy of Hurst A, we used to fine our team, 10p for a white peg knocked over, 10p for a missed ball shot and 50p may of been £1 for a black peg knocked over. that was in charity games and league games.
If Not hire a hall for the weekend, and play charity doubles on the saturday either £5 per person or even £10 as this is what is charged in both Brighton And Worthing leagues for there one day off the spot competition which is a very good day, (could we play a one day off the spot Comp)? and then have your masters on the other day which again charge £5 per person to help cover the cost of the hall, table hire and what ever is over towards charity.
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 11, 2008 10:19:00 GMT
Hi Kev, at present there are no plans in place to play a Charity Cup competition at all this season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 10:32:25 GMT
Rather like the Warrior, my 'new ideas' are spent and I can now only add comments to other peoples !
Kevin, noble thoughts and plans, with the best possible motives, but too late in the day. As TIR points out, the framework for next season is in place and the committee really have to abide by what was resolved at the AGM. Such thoughts should have been put to the AGM !
I am inclined to agree with our President Shaun, that we appear to have shot ourselves in the foot by making both divisions play each other, thus making the season too long. But here again, that's already set in stone.
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Post by specialone on Aug 11, 2008 10:37:16 GMT
The Charity Cup Was Donated by Arthur Walker. He was president of the Crawley league and landlord of The White Hart. His pub did not have a team and he wanted to do something for the league. He said he did not care how we used the cup but thought it would be nice if we used it to raise money for St Cathrines, which was a personal issue, close to his heart at the time. The Charity Competition was thus born.
I am sure it is to late for this season, but I think my suggestion makes sense.
We retain the Charity
The season is a good length for social players like myself, and leaves lots of scope for the keener players to play summer competions.
Over the last few years, and recently, we have heard players talking about easing up on players who are clearly no match for them. Some of this is true, but most is rubbish. Often they use this as an opotunity to boost averages, and post trophy scores. Some years ago at an AGM a player said 'of course we all go easy on the ladies of the Windmill'. The following season he played his table out against one of them. If we have a top league there will be no need to ease up. Full monty every game. But gone will be most of the easy ones. Also 'the table police' will be mainly in the top league, and the play it as you find it guys and gals will be in the lower league. How good would it be if 90% of the moaning went away.
If this sounds a bit strong put it down to the fact I have an infected foot at the moment, and I am just of to Princes Royal for more I.V.
THELIMPINGONE
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 10:57:19 GMT
Sorry to hear about your infected foot, Shaun. (My euphemism about the League having shot itself in the foot being an unfortunate one, and no offence intended !)
In case anyone reading the thread might think there is a slight contradiction, Shaun has just given the history of how the Charity Cup was formed in Crawley, and I myself attended the 'auction night' (as Horsham rep) and Mr Terry Gasson made the right sort of assurances on the continuance of Crawley's original idea of a competition for charity - thus landing the valued item for Mid Sussex.
My prediction of how it will go.
1. Season will stay as a 'long' one, all play all, 30 games. 2. Charity Cup will be shelved for 1 year. 3. A 'Masters' will be introduced. 4. The so-called 'lesser teams' will moan like ****. 5. A joint M-S/Lewes Summer League will be organised, but outside committee. 6. A year from now common sense will prevail, league will go back to separate divisions and Charity League will be re-introduced.
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Aug 11, 2008 11:53:43 GMT
Rather like the Warrior, my 'new ideas' are spent and I can now only add comments to other peoples ! Kevin, noble thoughts and plans, with the best possible motives, but too late in the day. As TIR points out, the framework for next season is in place and the committee really have to abide by what was resolved at the AGM. Such thoughts should have been put to the AGM ! I am inclined to agree with our President Shaun, that we appear to have shot ourselves in the foot by making both divisions play each other, thus making the season too long. But here again, that's already set in stone. OK But there is nothing stopping us doing anything over the weekend, Charity off the spot comp, Doubles, Single or Triples Handicapped comp, followed by a masters on the other day.
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TIR
Full Forum Member
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Post by TIR on Aug 11, 2008 13:41:19 GMT
I certainly would support a one day charity event and see no reason why this could not be arranged and be a team event.
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Aug 11, 2008 13:46:15 GMT
I certainly would support a one day charity event and see no reason why this could not be arranged and be a team event. Yes could certainly be a team event too ;)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 16:25:31 GMT
OK But there is nothing stopping us doing anything over the weekend, Charity off the spot comp, Doubles, Single or Triples Handicapped comp, followed by a masters on the other day. I certainly would support a one day charity event and see no reason why this could not be arranged and be a team event. Now that you've spelled it out for us, suddenly it sounds viable. Especially if a sponsor or sponsors could be found. (I am still willing to provide perpetuals for the Masters, btw.) Your system combines Jock's summer league for triples into a Redhill/Limes format whilst keeping the Charity Cup going and not extending the season. :o :o :o :o The big disadvantage is that not all teams would be participating in the charity competition, as you could not make entry compulsory.
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 12, 2008 7:00:55 GMT
Now that you've spelled it out for us, suddenly it sounds viable. Especially if a sponsor or sponsors could be found. (I am still willing to provide perpetuals for the Masters, btw.) Your system combines Jock's summer league for triples into a Redhill/Limes format whilst keeping the Charity Cup going and not extending the season. :o :o :o :o The big disadvantage is that not all teams would be participating in the charity competition, as you could not make entry compulsory. Only 2 more replies to the e-mail I sent round....... both from people who have already commented here on the Forum - Tommo & Specialone! Thank you both for your views. 8-) However, the lack of other responses combined with the fact that opinions here seem to be split roughly 50/50 over extending the season lead me to believe that I would not be able to take this to Committee and attempt to change the playing format for this season. We are therefore left with the option of either dropping the Charity Cup completely this season (and then probably introducing it again next year using the playing format suggested by specialone) or arranging it as a separate event, possibly to be run in conjunction with a Masters Event either over a weekend, or during an evening around the dates for our Finals Night. I agree with Tommo that, if it were to be held as a separate event, we would not get the support of all the teams (probably about 50% at the most) so it may be better to run it as a Doubles / Triples event using possibly a Handicapping System, off-the-spot or Limes Triples type format to make it "different" to a normal event and, if necessary, we could possibly invite players from other Leagues to make up the numbers. Having looked into the costs, my company would certainly be able to cover the cost of hiring the tables for either the Masters Event or the Charity Event...... possibly both, although I would prefer one of the 2 events to either be self-funding or the League to at least make a contribution towards it! ;) I will put this forward as a Proposal at the next Committee Meeting and, if approved, we can then start to look at dates and a playing format for both events.
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Post by iang on Aug 12, 2008 15:43:39 GMT
The lack of response now does not mean that people are happy with the situation I fully expect several complaints from both camps pro & against charity when the season starts, but as has already been stated on here the committee would be berated which ever way they jumped. Lets just hope that we keep the 16 teams for the whole season & not loose any before the season starts, I still think the straight knock out would be the best choice but we have gone over & over this with so many variations now that we must seek the committee's views to see if any are acceptable.
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Post by Ros on Aug 13, 2008 12:06:15 GMT
From your email sent out on Saturday Dave! ;)
Sorry I didn't make my preferences clear on my texts, I was concerned I had already been rude enough - we were out to dinner with a large family group. But here I am on the 13th!
I'm also shocked that such a long running competition has apparently just been swept aside. >:(
The excuse that the competition didn't raise as much this year for charity just doesn't wash - I'm sure St Catherine's was grateful for whatever they received.
IMHO it is one of the reasons why our league continues to expand while others falter. It was great to watch our two bottom teams battle it out in the final - the competition encourages new teams and new players and gives them a realistic target to aim for. Very often the two teams in the final will be the league champions against a lowly team, again that's great.
If four pools had been formed, that would be 3 weeks of 'Round Robin' that could easily have been added in to the season (Ideally at least two of them before the league started to give new players confidence) The semi-finals could then have been scheduled for a different night of the week - it's unlikely that a team would object to playing once on a different night if they'd qualified for a semi-final.
Failing that, a straight knockout would be the next best option for me.
Thanks for putting the record straight tommo on the history of the competition. I have been told on many occasions that the competition only existed as a 'filler' when the league was short of teams/fixtures and therefore could and should be dropped when no longer required. That misinformation is now so widespread that most of the league think it is fact. >:(
Finally, thanks to Warrior for texting me that Sportsman have been promoted, I hadn't received any other notification. ::)
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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Aug 13, 2008 16:02:24 GMT
Ok another silly idea from the jockster!
Play 2-3 charity matches at the start as per norm. Drop the team cup play those dates as charity matches instead, then play however many more matches would be needed at the end of season. The play the Team Cup as a one day event perhaps same weekend as the 'Masters'. Seeing as the team cup is a straight knockout format anyways.
Failing all that I'm all idea'd out and now officially give up!!!
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Post by bobhall on Aug 13, 2008 16:15:35 GMT
once again i can see no one is readin post properly as we have heard that the charity will not be happining in the format of starting the season eraly or playing for longer so the only way is to have it at a weekend we can make alot of money that way and if during the season we continue to collect a little every week for the charity pot we will make more than last year. this is the only way forward this year n next year mayb a new format so a weekend event is the way forward one it will get everyone together and 2 we can all have a great day out enjoying a game we love
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 18:43:43 GMT
Play 2-3 charity matches at the start as per norm. Drop the team cup play those dates as charity matches instead, then play however many more matches would be needed at the end of season. The play the Team Cup as a one day event perhaps same weekend as the 'Masters'. Seeing as the team cup is a straight knockout format anyways. Sounds good on paper, but not so palatable if you work out the logistics. So far we have only contemplated hiring two extra tables for the weekend (cost is punitive otherwise). Taking the simplest format, 8 v 8, 4 v 4, 2 v 2 and 1 v 1 (although I accept Ros's 4 pools of 4 teams playing a round robin can be a viable alternative) and remembering that there are 5 players in every team, this would mean 70 frames of bar billiards excluding the final. :o With only 3 tables, 25 x 20 minute frames would mean NINE hours of bar billiards. And I don't think you'd get the whole league out there competing for a straightforward Team Cup, it's just not an attractive enough idea. The earlier suggestions of (handicap) doubles/trebles was a more practical one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 18:57:26 GMT
Taking the simplest format, 8 v 8, 4 v 4, 2 v 2 and 1 v 1 (although I accept Ros's 4 pools of 4 teams playing a round robin can be a viable alternative) and remembering that there are 5 players in every team, this would mean 70 frames of bar billiards excluding the final. :o Just to add, 8 v 8, 4 v 4, 2 v 2 and 1 v 1 is 15 matches including the Final. A 'Round Robin' contest would bump it up considerably : 6 matches in each group leads to 24 matches, plus 2 semi finals and a final. :o Okay for "in season" but definitely not for a one-dayer. BB Warrior will no doubt now tell us how it could all be fitted in using a Fourth Table - but this would seem an awful lot of trouble to go to just to stage an ordinary Team Knockout. No Plate either, remember !
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 14, 2008 7:02:49 GMT
Yes Tommo, having 4 tables would make a difference.....!! ;D
But, having sent out 35 e-mails to all the people on the League Distribution List....... I have only received replies from 7 people and 5 of those have been posting their thoughts here on the Forum anyway! Of the other 2, one of them believed that we would only be playing League matches against teams in the same division and therefore assumed that Charity Cup matches would be played to "fill in" the rest of the season and the other said that he didn't want to play Charity Cup matches at all! ::)
So, it would seem that it is only really "we happy few" here that care if the Charity Cup is played or not! >:( :'(
On that basis, we obviously can't think of making changes to the league format for this season..... and I would even wonder if we would get enough support to play it as a "one day" event? :-/
I will start a separate thread for a Mid-Sussex Masters Event, as this one seems to be quite diverse in it's content now...!! 8-) ;D
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Post by specialone on Aug 15, 2008 19:05:34 GMT
We are such are small minority who debate this issue. Only the keenest would bother to put five pages on this site.
I was once a very keen and ambitious player, and I am now a social player, but love the game just as much. This helps me to see both sides.
Tommo thinks in a years time, common sense will prevail and we will have 2 divs and the charity. Why wait? We now have enough teams for it.
Everyone seems to want the charity to be played, and the majority would like a shorter season.
Teams playing teams of a similar ability is a good thing, unless you are a bully or like being bullied.
The all plays all was adopted as temporary measure, and it was hoped we could go back to 2 divs if we got more teams.
The keenest players will always run the game, but they must run the game for everyone.
My left foot is now able to fit into a shoe, thank you the staff of the Princess Royal.
Thespecialone
The only thing that makes me good is the fact that people worse than me play the game. Hope they carry on or I won't be good any more.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 19:37:22 GMT
While I am one of the keenest and most active players around, and will probably allow myself to be swept along in the euphoria of extra matchplay, my sympathies as a past President of Mid Sussex are very much with the present one: You should listen to us guys, we've been around a good many years and played in other Leagues before bar billiards - as we knew it then - went into decline.
Shaun and I were playing in Mid Sussex when it had three leagues, and before that in the Crawley League when it too had three divisions, and every pub had its own bar billiards table. Keeping the landlords happy with regular cup matches and regular practice nights was paramount.
We can see things from a detached, dispassionate point of view. And we can assure you that when the lesser teams see the season's fixtures and realise that their one chance to shine - the Charity League and the possibility of playing on finals Night - is being denied them, they will be absolutely distraught.
Carrying the Charity Cup on out of season is being touted as the only option, but it ain't necessarily so. Once Finals Night is over, for most people (my own team included) the season is done and dusted.
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 15, 2008 21:33:53 GMT
Thank you Tommo & Specialone for your points of view.......
But, it seems that a majority of the teams in the League aren't really bothered about playing the Charity Cup as, with 2 exceptions, the only people that answered the e-mail that I sent round a week ago are the same people who have been posting their thoughts here on the Forum! ::)
None of the following teams have made any response at all.......
CKRBL Plough Watermill A Watermill B Royal Oak (Windmill) Brewers Bravos
So, neither the winners or runners-up last season seem to want to play it again this year........ possibly they are too distraught to be able to answer though?? ::) :-X
From that point of view, I would suggest that the Committee made the correct decision to concentrate on playing "League" matches rather than the Charity Cup..... although I don't remember the idea of playing the games as 2 separate divisions being discussed at all.
I do remember that a majority of the Committee did seem to think that we would actually lose some teams if the Charity Cup was played this season..... as "most teams" (to use one of the expressions mentioned at the meeting) didn't enjoy it.
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