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Post by Baby Guinness on Aug 15, 2008 21:49:00 GMT
I think it is a shame more people don't make more of an effort to attend the AGM, where we could then find out ready for the coming season what players would like, rather than it being left to the committee. Then the rest of the league criticize the decisions made. Playing last year 90% of the league players complained the league was too long, and also didn't want it going to 2 divisions. I have been playing a few years now, and I certainly didn't mind being thrashed by the premier div teams, you will always learn a lot from the better players, if you are that interested.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 22:18:57 GMT
I take Lorraine's point about shame people don't come along to the AGM to put forward their requirements, but that is a common problem throughout the game.
But to answer the Warrior, you cannot take the non-replies from half the League as a sign that they don't care what's going on, or don't mind what's happening about the Charity Cup: you didn't allow them enough time to respond, not everyone is computer literate and they may not check their eMails regularly - hell, some might even be on holiday, and some of the team members that they would wish to consult similarly away !
I have every confidence in the Committee arriving at the correct decision, but if you are to hi-jack the Charity League into a reduced format which is also out of season, an official memo ought to go out to all teams from the Secretary first, rather than a snap e-mail which might not have reached all recipients.
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 15, 2008 22:49:14 GMT
But to answer the Warrior, you cannot take the non-replies from half the League as a sign that they don't care what's going on, or don't mind what's happening about the Charity Cup: you didn't allow them enough time to respond, not everyone is computer literate and they may not check their eMails regularly - hell, some might even be on holiday, and some of the team members that they would wish to consult similarly away ! I have every confidence in the Committee arriving at the correct decision, but if you are to hi-jack the Charity League into a reduced format which is also out of season, an official memo ought to go out to all teams from the Secretary first, rather than a snap e-mail which might not have reached all recipients. Possibly a fair point Tommo regarding not giving people enough time to respond....... however with the fixtures likely to be sent out within the next week or two (and me being on holiday from tomorrow morning) I had to put some sort of deadline on it. But I'm sorry if you have read my e-mail or posts here as an attempt to hi-jack the Charity Cup into a reduced format, my intention was only to try to save it (in any format that would be supported by the teams) this season to enable us to then have time to re-consider it properly for next year. Personally, I strongly believe that the Charity Cup should be continued to both help with the development of new players in the League (as has been proved over the years) and obviously raise money for the Charity as well. I had hoped that the e-mail I sent around would receive support for the Charity Cup from a majority of our member teams, which would have enabled me to call a special committee meeting to ask that we re-consider the format for the League THIS season. Obviously, anything official concerning the playing format will be sent out by the League Secretary before the start of the season and would be based on the decisions made at the recent Committee Meeting...... so, as things stand, there will be no Charity Cup this season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 23:21:43 GMT
Agreed, what it boils down to is that we can discuss on here what we want to do until we're blue in the face, but the Forum is not empowered to decide anything.
A few of you/us might like the idea of the proposed Charity League out of season, but it needs not only committee approval, but also a pledge of support from League members. We keen ones here are, as Shaun says, in the minority: what point would there be of planning what amounts to a revolutionary new competition and then only have something like six pairs entering it ?
Sorry to have used the term hi-jack, did not mean you alone, but that's what it may look like to outsiders.
For the record, I think that a one-day Charity Team knockout not too far out of season may be viable, participation not compulsory, target of eight teams. But I still think two fixed nights could be found to fit it in as a knockout during season, semi-final by arrangement and final on Finals Night as normal. (Even Jock agreed with this at one stage.)
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TIR
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Post by TIR on Aug 16, 2008 9:32:15 GMT
If the Charity was played as a one day event before the end of season then the final could still be played on finals night,
Playing as two separate divisions was discussed at the comittee meeyting and the all play all format was overwhelmingly approved. Also the last time that the charity had more matches than the league everyone I spoke to dissaproved and one team withdrew from the charity competition.
One reason I play is to visit venues where I would not go otherwise.
Lower division teams already get the extra half point for beating premier opponents possibly they should have all the breaks as well.
The fact that last year the two weakest played in the final surely shows that the handicap system failed, probably because the handicaps were not adjusted half way through the season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 10:16:01 GMT
Are you sure that we're reading from the same hymnsheet here, Trevor ? ;D If the Charity was played as a one day event before the end of season then the final could still be played on finals night and One reason I play is to visit venues where I would not go otherwise. As a former pub landlord, no sympathy for the loss of pub trade then, TIR ? Eight first round matches and four quarter finals involving between 96 and 168 drinkers ? (teams vary between 4 and 7 players in the Charity) Playing as two separate divisions was discussed at the comittee meeyting and the all play all format was overwhelmingly approved. Also the last time that the charity had more matches than the league everyone I spoke to dissaproved and one team withdrew from the charity competition.. Then the committee may have over-reacted, based on information that was spoonfed to them, and as we discovered earlier, not entirely accurate. Agreed that two years ago there was a slight imbalance, with more games in the Charity League than in the Main League, but that can't be a justification for doubling the number of games in one and completely zapping the other. Have the committee thought this through sufficiently ? Lower division teams already get the extra half point for beating premier opponents possibly they should have all the breaks as well. I would agree with you if the most difficult and uncared-for tables were not all in the lower division ! Why stop there ? Shall we buy all their drinks too and pay for their sandwiches ? ;D The fact that last year the two weakest played in the final surely shows that the handicap system failed, probably because the handicaps were not adjusted half way through the season. The exact opposite has been mooted, ie. that the handicap system worked for that very reason. The truth probably lies in between the two: that handicaps should level things out. If I were running a handicap competition I would make the players' last season average scores the handicaps and adjust from there. I.e. if player X's average was 3750 last year and player Y's was 4250, then if they played each other player X would have a start of 500.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 14:20:00 GMT
Just to add re the Charity League, I did not see anything wrong with this proposal of Jock's : Yeah good points mama bear and sparky. I have replied to the warriors e-mail but here is the gist of my proposal. Season to start on the 10th Sept with 1st Charity Match Second Match to be played week after Team Cup/Plate Quarter Finals 28th Jan 09 League would then finish 20th May 09 Play final Charity Match 1 week later on 27th May. Finals Night 10th June AGM 24th June 09 By splitting the matches into 3 across the season I think those who don't like the charity cup, yes there are some, will hardly notice it. As will those who don't want to start season too early or finish it too late. Also, the BB Warrior's blueprint for the season (see opening post on this thread) showed a set night (25th March) for Team Cup/Plate semi-finals: this could also do for the Charity Cup semi-finals, and if any team is involved in both they could in that exceptional circumstance arrange one of the games on a separate night of the same week. A reason please why Jock's proposal couldn't be implemented.
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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Aug 18, 2008 16:15:27 GMT
I thank you tommo a voice of reason at last, I think some one needs to call a special committee meeting and get this sorted out one way or another, fairly quickly as well.
Either way the committee made a decision based on the information we had at our fingertips at the time, that being that the majority of the league wanted a play all format and not split divisions. And that for many the season was far too long. Based on those three simple points the current format was grudgingly agreed, knowing full well that it would be heavily criticized.
I voiced my concerns at the loss of the charity cup citing the loss of many of our 'new' players, which admittedly still remains to be seen. Mamma Hall is 100% correct in her statement regarding the AGM. No idea's other than Andy Farmers were presented at the time and even that was put in the wrong place, (listed in the rule changes section) which meant that it was all but ignored, admittedly that particular idea needed some serious tweeks in order for it to work. The general consensus was to let the committee decide at a later date!
Unfortunately Jen has been away so we are unable to discover how many teams ticked the 'do you want to play charity cup matches' box, if all the teams ticked it and want to play then the way forward is quite simple, we would have to divide into two leagues and play the charity as normal, which will annoy those who don't want the league to split, but will please those that don't want the longer season. If no one ticked the box then this entire debate has been a waste of time!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 16:52:08 GMT
Very well articulated Jock, and exactly the correct way forward. ;)
A special committee meeting - or at the very least a phone around of committee members to agree once and for all on the format.
I would point out that my interest is purely as a captain of one of the teams of the Premier Division. I have no personal axe to grind, apart from a strong belief that the Charity League should be saved while there is still time to save it. :-/
It is going to be no fun otherwise for the lowlier teams, and I want the matches we play to take place in a good and cheerful atmosphere, rather than have to endure possible verbal earbashings about how unfair the league structure is.
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Post by bigtj on Aug 18, 2008 16:58:24 GMT
It seems a shame that a league that has new teams joining is in a position of indecisiveness so clost to a new season starting, and prehaps as an outsider the best way forward is to call a special committee meeting where those involved along with prehaps some experienced non- committee members could sort out the differences before the league starts or you are in danger of having a season that is marred by whinging from many quarters.
In the end we are competitive animals and try our best on the table, but mainly go out for a bloody good night out and to meet friends old and new, this is not going to happen if there is an underlying feeling of people being disgruntled. It only takes a few to carry the arguements forward and others join in. Committees are in a no win situation as the game fights to survive through lack of venues, current financial situation ( personal and business ) and introducing new bloood.
Hoping this is rectified for the good of the league and membership in general. Have a good coming season. Tony Jenner.
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TIR
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Post by TIR on Aug 18, 2008 18:24:17 GMT
The comittee made a very sensible decision based on the evidence of almost universal disapproval of the season the Charity took precedence over the league.
No contributions at all have been made to this discussion by any of the less experienced lower division players.
All against all has been very succesful over the last few seasons, so why is it suddenly wrong for weaker players to learn by playing against premier teams.
There is absolutely no reason to call a special meeting to re hash past issues, the season starts on 17th September and finishes on the 13th May
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Post by theoldfella (R.I.P.) on Aug 20, 2008 12:39:40 GMT
I note about 100 postings from 16 different people, not all directly involved in MSBBL (and this in no bad thing, so don't get me wrong) Will someone please contact the Chairman about calling an EGM or accept the decisions made by the committee at its last meeting. The alternative formats are available and we certainly have the time if the 2 division solution is favoured.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 14:13:26 GMT
or accept the decisions made by the committee at its last meeting. Clarification is needed then on what those decisions actually were. If the committee decided there will be no Charity Competition this year - period ! - then possibly an EGM might be a good idea. But if the committee agreed that there was scope for arranging some sort of substitute competition as compensation ( NOT a Masters, note !!) - as hinted by BB Warrior - then no need for us to show any concern, we'll just let the Committee get on with it. I rather hope that the latter has an element of truth, as having to hold an EGM gives out the wrong message - one of no confidence in the Committee. Which is a shame as they do an excellent job, and have done for very many years.
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Post by Q on Aug 20, 2008 15:47:06 GMT
BBW is away this week, I might see him tomorrow, I think that Peter Edwards should be back now.
I agree with Clive that if at all possible the EGM route should be avoided, but decisions need to be made FAST
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Post by Baby Guinness on Aug 20, 2008 21:03:46 GMT
I Can say that it was agreed at the last committee meeting that we would run a charity competition somehow during the season. Please lets get the summer over with, and give us time to try and arrange something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 21:18:12 GMT
I'm happy with that, Lorraine. :-*
It's been hinted that I've rocked the boat, but my motives have only been those of a Team Captain expressing his concerns after receiving a questionnaire on the league formation.
I'm personally 60/40 in favour of all-playing-all, and do not see the point of an EGM if the committee are allowed (and allow themselves !) a degree of flexibility.
We now await the new season's fixtures with bated breath. ;D
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TIR
Full Forum Member
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Post by TIR on Aug 21, 2008 8:31:51 GMT
Hooray it seems that Theoldfella and Mama Hall were both at the same meeting as me.
The comittee were asked to think of ways of holding a charity competition outside of the agreed fixture structure.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 9:15:19 GMT
.....................and bearing in mind the Old Fella's statement (posted on other thread) The majority of teams have ticked the 'want to play' box re Charity Cup. ......this will turn out to be a popular decision. Everyone's a winner. ;)
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Post by iang on Aug 21, 2008 16:10:01 GMT
Hooray it seems that Theoldfella and Mama Hall were both at the same meeting as me. The comittee were asked to think of ways of holding a charity competition outside of the agreed fixture structure. Hooray at last something definite why has it taken so long to get to this ?? I'm sure that will give a lot of people some hope
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Post by Baby Guinness on Aug 21, 2008 17:00:42 GMT
I think a lot of people don't read or know all the facts, as Jock stated in his 1st posting, we would not be including the charity in the league program. We were waiting until all committee members had returned from holidays and we will be trying to arrange a charity program. Please give us a chance. The trouble is everyone jumps too soon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 17:50:31 GMT
Just in case you all missed it: 15. Rowing correct, 1pt + 1pt Mid Sussex bonus ;) ;D So it's thanks to us that K.T. got a bonus point on the quiz ! 8-) ;)
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Post by iang on Aug 21, 2008 18:31:39 GMT
What you need to remember is that as well as a 30 week league season you also have 3 weeks for cup games which nobody has mentioned so to add another 5 weeks on to that would mean that we should have started by now, I think that the 3 extra weeks is pssibly the only way to go maybe we could bring the start forward by a week. If you remember we talked about this at the AGM & voted against The Big farmers suggustion of extra games at the end of the night for good reasons we also voted to let the committee format the fixture list the best way they thought best when we knew how many teams we had it's great the we have 2 new teams it's what we all want & have been crying out for, on the registration forms there was a box marked "do you wish to play charity matches" it would be nice to hear from Jenny how many teams said yes to that. It would not bother me playing an extra 3 weeks but it wont as metioned before give the new teams a chance to "turn over the big teams" but it would keep the comp going & produce a final if it was as good as last year,it's worthwhile to see teams like Watermill B & the Bravo's enjoy playing in a final then it's worth doing. Phew. From page 3 of this debate. wrapped up by Mamma hall in a few lines of reassurance ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 18:45:09 GMT
Yes, looking back over this long thread, the issue appeared to have become clouded at around the end of the second page.
One ill-chosen word, or one out of place and people jump in - sometimes false assumptions being made.
I am now really looking forward to a nice, long, competitive season. Watch out for that Greyhound, they will want their title back. ;D
If any good has come out of our heated debate, it is an awareness that people are passionate about saving the Charity Competition in one form or another.
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Post by specialone on Aug 22, 2008 11:39:41 GMT
Have I understood where we have got to with this. Are we now going to run a charity competition in addition to 30 league games and the K.O.? I hope not, at the AGM I thought there was agreement the season had been to long for a lot of teams. I do not know if I can sell a 9/10 month season to my players, although I appreciate that the people who made decision like to play as much as possible.
I still think 14 league games, 8 charity games (7 group, 1 semi), 3 team KO, gives an almost perfect length season. Long enough for the majority, and lots of scope for the keener players to play in the extra stuff that has been suggested. However I do realise it would mean we would loose the complete mis-matches which have become an essential part of Mid-Sussex Bar Billiards ( I am still unable to grasp why these games have become so essential, as have some of the teams on the receiving end of the thrashings).
We would also loose the evenings when stronger teams visit weaker teams, and spend the whole night moaning about the table. Gone would be the opportunity to accuse the home team of producing a poor table to 'level the playing field'.
The all important personal playing records will suffer as well. The top division players will no longer have their records boosted by beating up players from the lower division, and lots of lower division players will have records better than 50%.
Everyone who has contributed to this debate on this forum is a good player. I think all but one will play in the premier league this season.
I was once one of the best, and keenest players in Mid-Sussex. Three mens singles wins in five years, 20 years of playing inter-league, years on the committee, and competition sec. for a couple of years. I would like to think that during that time I never lost sight of the interests of all players and all teams.
This will be my last post on this subject. I will now concentrate my efforts on seeing if I have the players to complete what I fear will be another marathon, and financially taxing, season.
Shaun
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Post by Baby Guinness on Aug 22, 2008 12:23:28 GMT
I give up, we are never going to please everyone, a charity game will be run but not extending the league
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Aug 22, 2008 13:41:17 GMT
I give up, we are never going to please everyone, a charity game will be run but not extending the league Dont give up mum, :-* :-* try writing in LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS so people can understand. So far i have noticed this is by far the worst league for people moaning ::) ::)
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Post by Baby Guinness on Aug 22, 2008 14:35:38 GMT
Well I certainly agree with you there Kev, not only have we noticed but also other leagues have noticed it. Not getting a very good reputation.
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Aug 22, 2008 14:48:06 GMT
Well I certainly agree with you there Kev, not only have we noticed but also other leagues have noticed it. Not getting a very good reputation. I have noticed that when i am playing some of my other leagues we do seem to have a lot of people laughing at us at the way we go on.
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Post by Sir Jock o The Strap on Aug 22, 2008 16:49:48 GMT
Laughing at what? The capacity for good healthy debate?
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Post by iang on Aug 22, 2008 17:23:55 GMT
Well I certainly agree with you there Kev, not only have we noticed but also other leagues have noticed it. Not getting a very good reputation. I have noticed that when i am playing some of my other leagues we do seem to have a lot of people laughing at us at the way we go on. This is getting silly now. Every year we all say how well MSBBL is run with an excellent finals night etc & how it's one of the friendliest leagues going. As has been stated by several people this thread has been between only a few players ye s most of them are from Premier teams but also 5 committee members it is an exchange of views I have tried on several occasions to remind people that at the end of the day it is down to the committee thats why we elected them the Reapers comments regarding capital letters is wrong, now that Lorraine has said that it will be looked at shows they are trying to cater for everyone. I understand the specialone's concerns for the long season but I would imagine that he would not have to play in the charity.
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