4 pin discussion May 18

[daveuk1]

Taffy we amended our rules for the open only to use the baulk lines, our league still uses the end of the green stuff.
We are not trying to make our rules national. I just pointed out that the aebba rules state the rules for four pin are those in force for the EA Open. That has all been sorted now thanks to lorins very quick response.
Let's just all enjoy the weekend and play bar billiards in the true spirit of the pub game it is, beer, beer and more beer

[taffy]

BTW dave, if a ball crosses the baulk line but stops on the open table is it where it rests or the fact that it crossed the line? is it as seen from above or where it is on it's contact point with the table?

cheers

(get the beers in...)

Taffy

[barbelman]

I have moved all the recent posts about rules from Northants Open + 4 pin 2018 that are not relevant to the post but still interesting, here.

[gandalf the untidy]

Now that the air is clear, i thought it was time to put across my views on 4 pin, Please be aware that the points below are aimed at making the game as much fun as possible and as fair to each player as possible and to ensure that players are not on the wrong side of a rule which reduces the fun of participation in the game which i prefer to play over 3 pin. My comments are for discussion with the hope that the AEBBA will recognise the intent to formulate rules for the benefit and promotion of 4 pin and enhance the future of the game. I also understand that committees involved in the the narrow version don't want to change their rules even though they may agree with the arguments and reasoning behind any changes. So there will be difficulties ahead for all concerned

As far as i remember there was no discussion of 4 pin rules at the 2017 AEBBA AGM, the last time it was discussed was 2016 AEBBA AGM, at that time the Northants open was not an AEBBA open but was in the process of being adopted and i was tasked with advising the AEBBA with some possible rules that could be discussed, which i did, but nothing was done after that so here goes.

1. Pin positions
To define the distance of the pin from the hole, because nothing is specified, it has caused unnecessary strife as pegs are moved to suit some players to the detriment of others. as you all may be aware, at Sudbury a while back the 50 hole pegs only were moved to be touching the hole to stop the 50/50 break leaving the 100 and 200 pegs at a reasonable distance from the hole. At Northants the pegs were moved closer to the holes after i had placed them, the side effect was also to make the high scoring shots of the back cushion equally as hard as the 50/50 break. The peg positions therefore need to be specified to such a distance from the hole so that there is a reasonable risk to benefit ratio. With the recent positioning of pegs this ratio is wrong with the risks outweighing the benefits which resulted in a severe reduction in difficult shots being attempted, which as i understand is against the 4 pin ethos of going for shots, so this is not a good road to travel down. This for me it is a backward step leaving most to revert to a less exciting break shot to the back cushion, the double wammy here is that scores are reduced and also slows the game down, so that's 2 factors that make the game less fun for me.

2. Returning the pin once moved but not falling
This has happened to all players at some time, the peg is moved from it's position but doesn't fall, so the incumbent player has had some luck in not knocking down a peg and then also gets an advantage in playing the rest of his break with the pockets not covered correctly, then when the break is finished the peg is then replaced so the advantage to the second player is not carried on, i would suggest that either the peg remains in its new position until felled and then replaced, this however could lead to some silly scores if the black peg is moved sufficiently, so this is not a realistic option, or the peg is replaced immediately to minimise the unfair advantage.

3. Must use the red
This rule has been discussed repeatedly but no one can remember the reason why this rule is on the books, for me it slows the game down for both players so again you result in lower scores and game that doesn't flow, why not just change the rule to use any balls (accept or even when breaking) and make the game flow with the benefit of increased enjoyment for both participants

4. 6 or 7 balls
With leagues where games are played with 7 balls, i don't see a benefit in taking a ball from the tray, as someone has to look after it and return it to the tray at the end, also in tournaments where multiple sets are used mixing the balls could be detrimental to later events if balls with unmatched weights are accidentally placed in the wrong sets.

5 Toss for break
clearly, those that lose all their tosses in a tournament are at a disadvantage, is it not simpler just to play as drawn to ensure an equal number of breaks for each player and have a double break where single legs games are specified

6 Bulk Line
This has now been resolved in tournaments but its not specified in a rule as far as i know and should be

PS will be playing 4 pin as often as i can whatever rules are used but lets make it as fair and as much fun as we can

May 28, 2018 15:40:23 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

This for me is a backward step leaving most to revert to a less exciting break shot to the back cushion

The sad thing, Gandalf, is you seriously believe that the 50/50 hole break is 'exciting'.
It is unquestionably a short cut to big scores but ruins the game for those who refuse to attempt it on principle.

Claiming that 'big scoring' should be a factor of 4-Pin damages the integrity of the game. No wonder the East Anglian leagues - our friends of Sudbury apart - have taken no interest in the Opens since the first one in 2013 (when we got competitors from Norwich and Wellingborough).

These are the people we should be bending over backwards to attract - rather than making attempts to bring the game more in line with 3-Pin for our own convenience.

The only change I'd vote for would be swapping the red and white round for the break, a la Newmarket: now that would make it exciting, going up in 110's rather than in 70's......almost as good as 150's.

And if you had all the tables set up to be slightly uphill, that would make all the "up and back" shots (to 200, 100 and the 50's) attemptable - something they haven't been in any Open I've played in so far.

[gandalf the untidy]

sadly tommo you have missed the point of my text as i expect most will, the 50/50 shot has always been available to play, its not a criminal act to play it, and its a shame that people refuse to play it and try their damnedest to make it as difficult as possible, My point was to make the game more fun and more exciting and as i've previosly stated its something that few are interested in.

I hope that the right people make the right long term decisions to promote the game for the best of 4 pin, we will see in due course

[daveuk1]

Gandalf while I personally agree with most of the things you say,,,,, I have to ask why???? I am constantly reminded that three pin is the national game so why the hell isnt something being done to make that more fun? I respect that some of the top three pin players are more than happy to take on the challenge of playing our four pin game and other average three pin players enjoy the four pin as it is.

The one occasion at one of our opens when the pegs where very close to the holes was, as I habe explained in the past, my fault, we marked out the tables using the pegs supplied by the AEBBA as included in our hire charge and me being thick didnt remember that the 8 sets of mushrooms, that we had bought at a cost of more than a couple hundred pounds has wider bases.
The 50-50 split break shot is not a real option on narrow tables, where as on standard tables set up for three pin it is the easy option so again to make bar billiards more fun for every one should this not be a national thing we think about? A simple rule saying from a break shot in either three or four pin saying from the break shot at least one ball must pass the furthest edge (from the D) of a 50 hole would pit a stop to the boring 50-50 break

These are my thoughts only and after having a good few pints of beer with Steve Hale while trying 3 pin on a narrow table

May 28, 2018 18:08:27 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

My point was to make the game more fun and more exciting and as i've previosly stated its something that few are interested in.

I think Suffolk BBA achieved that this year by introducing Narrow tables.

[daveuk1]

It does seem to me that many rule changes are just seeming to copy 3 pin rules.

[gandalf the untidy]

Thanks daveuk and tommo for your input, yes 4 pin is interesting on narrow tables and i love it, and vive la difference, i sill think that AEBBA tournaments should be run so that participants should have a fair and equal opportunity and also try to make improvements to an old set of rules.

Perhaps we need to send out some lego packs so that we can build some bridges and "get over it"

And just on 3 pin i would love to change 3 pin to all off the spot as i do find the current version a bit boring, i've tried to make several changes within the scbba committee over the last few years, but have been voted down on all my suggestions and have subsequently resigned from SCBBA, which is why i like playing 4 pin so much as its a more interesting version for me.

At he end of the day i'm all for fairness and fun

[daveuk1]

Gandalf, I dont think we need to build bridges, I believe that those people taking part in this discussion already agree that four pin IS FUN and somewhere along the line we do need to work together and agree on a set of rules. I personally would love to see the AEBBA agree that four pin should be played on narrow tables, after all we now have a stock of narrow tables I'm sure we would be happy to hire them out to the AEBBA, there are more narrow tables on the way and ones we have will where necessary be refurbished.

I do believe the EA four pin open is already a successful tournament that is enjoyed by many, it is also the only open I am aware of that raises money for charity so I see no need to change anything as far as our open is concerned.

We will stick to our rules at our open but abide by what ever rules anyone else wants to use in their own opens.

[taffy]

I'd like to see either one or both of these changes:
1) use any ball available in open play but obviously red and white at the initial break shot. reason; continuous play, simply a better game.
2) being allowed to play the next shot while the previous ball is still 'rimming' but if you toucch it with the fresh shot it is a foul shot or if the ball were to come out of the hole it is a foul shot.
3?)I'd like most of all though to see two reds so that there is continuous play. if one is going down you can play the other. if all the other balls are up on the table then the second red can be played.

the reason I say this is because on my table my solo record is 10,500 and in the last week I have achieved 11,750 with the oxford break (OB) which I don't keep up for too long too often LOL!!! but I noticed that bashing balls already on the table and getting a good score off them can come very close to the OB shot, at least by me.

so by having continuous play i reckon the quick hitters might fight back a little against the oxford breakers. look, you have to be good to get the OB but the balls have to be set up and a very accurate aim taken. I noticed last week that except for Sav, EVERYONE'S OXFORD BREAK ABCOLUTELY CREAKED OR CRACKED - EVEN THE BEST OF THEM.

if we can tinker with the rules a little we can make the hare race against the tortoise and that slow accurate way will be under pressure....and creak.

Tommo likes the red as the cue ball - white as object ball making 110 instead of 70 from the break shot, this is how the Newmarket and BSE league was played. it is getting close to 150 and would make an intersting 'if' or 'either' with maybe a little longer break continueing with 110 while a shorter and slower break with 150 may not last as long, let us put it under pressure and to the test. now when it is "either or" it really, REALLY is good for the game!

I don't think the OB needs anymore tinkering than to say 'no shot score should come from the holes of the previous shot. that is all you have to do! easy to enforce, the skill is still there for the great players that can do it but I can do 3 x 110 to their 2 x 150 and i'm only risking one pin.

also, if i really didn't want the OB I'd simply insist on; 'the spot must be halfway between the leather/baulk line and the edge of the 200 hole PLUS 3cm or even minus 3cm - WELL JUST ANYTHING!!!! But not where the OB is possible like now! it's not rocket science and anyone can do it. but rather than ban it I'd just make other shots worth more and make that shot a little tougher.

I'd also stop the 200 being a 'sin nisi' shot. just let people lose their break! its the most unused hole on the table, let's get it in use. the alternative to this is that 'you lose your break the first time, the second time you lose your total score'. again, not too hard to administer that one!

I am not recommending this but it does work and here it sounds complicated but when you get going its simple.
I have a pink ball instead of two reds. that pink ball swops with the red and so there is continuous play. that is why I can reach nearly 12,000 solo. but when the balls are all up and the pink sits there, then it should and is played and the player declares "white" and it counts as a white for that shot only. the scorer can't get that wrong. but if it stays up, subsequently it is the same value as a red because after that first shot nobody would remember. and that is why it is a pink ball and halway between red and white and not a 100% red ball. you can also use it when all the whites are up on the table and your waiting for a white to 'rim' and fall....get that pink up, declare 'white' and off you go!

so all we need to do is at most move the spot, add another red, and the rest are rule changes that are easy to administer. The Newmarket break shot alone would make it a close call, a kind of Oxford v Newmarket!

most of all, I really wish we could have an 'alternative rules' day. on normal wide tables because we cannot have everyone in the UK on narrow tables because they don't exist! what with both the Sudbury and Northampton events being two-day with both days being used, we are left with the Sudbury team-4 but they are all narrow tables. nothing against Sudbury doing it but the narrow table bit if we are all totally honest isn't the place to try these rules - I mean no offence Dave.

I've virtually agreed with everything Gandolph has said. the bigger the game the harder it is to make changes!

the other thing I believe in is a 7cm D and narrower pins to have less blind spots. continuous play is what we want. we need more play at the 200 hole end and stopping it being the 'shot of death' would be an excellent start methinks!!!

we can do these things and review it afterwards. it hasn't got to be in stone!

cheers

Taffy

[daveuk1]

Taffy I am a little confuzzled about your "pink ball" am I reading and understanding this correctly?
If you use the pink ball as the cue ball you can decide if it counts as a red but after that first shot the pink becomes a red until its sunk and then when used as a cue ball the process starts again. So why on earth would anyone declare the pink to be white, when it could be red when used as the cue ball?????? Erm,,, please I need help my brain hurts.

It is widely accepted that narrow tables are for four pin only and I'm sure just about every player who has played a narrow table will tell you the 50-50 split break shot is not an option so playing narrow tables takes out the O B.

If you watch Sudbury players we do play 200 shots during the game, dropping the red down for four hundred points can boost your score quickly but the risk of losing your entire score has to be taken into account, I'm sure a few years ago when the Bay Horse played an England select team on the bays narrow table I got a break of 1000 (I think) in three shots against Tommo

Some D's already seem enormous, making them even bigger seems strange. There isnt a single spot on the table that cant be hit with the cue ball as it is

I need to add that I am NOT talking on behalf of the Suffolk Bar Billiards Association, these are just my own views and any rules we change would have to be discussed and voted on by our committee.

Dave

[gandalf the untidy]

Like the idea of no black pegs Taffy it will promote attacking shots for 3 and 4 pin, just need to be aware of risk v reward pin positions,
Like the single break idea for 3 and 4 pin
You don't need 2 reds if you don't have to wait for it
Agree that narrow tables are likely to remain a special case rather than the norm, it would be nice to see some convergence in the rules but though Daveuk is perhaps pro the discussion points i think the majority of Narrow players are not for changing no matter how sensible the arguments might be.

May 29, 2018 21:11:01 GMT daveuk1 said:

please I need help my brain hurts.
Dave

LOL. mine too Dave.

I see it this way, 4-Pin to me is like a supermodel of spectacular beauty.
Please don't allow herself to be ruined with botox, collagen implants, a boob job, etc - or to be covered in tattoos.

No cosmetic surgery whatsoever needed for the lady.

May 29, 2018 21:28:24 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

Like the idea of no black pegs Taffy

Now that would be exciting ! I remove the BP sometimes when I have problems with my cue action and want to improve my straight potting.
Got a break of 30,000 at this once !!!

[gandalf the untidy]

might be a supermodel but is she fun to be with

[taffy]

Hi Dave

well there are 8 balls in play, a red, a pink and 6 whites. everything starts normally and as a red goes down you pull up the pink and play it as a red, that is the default status, it is what it is there for as a back up red. to keep it simple you could have two reds. as the red is the ball that we try to get down with EVERY shot it stands to reason it is the ball we all wait for and it is a pain.

so far i hope that's simple.

if a red is stuck somewhere on the table and you use up all the whites, the pink (as last ball left) is played you just declare 'white' as you play it. now clearly, after a few shots the scorer would say; 'what is that pink (worth) again?' so the rule is simple, it is only a white during that shot. if it stays on the table then the value when it does eventually fall is of a red. So you can't really get its value wrong. the scorer just forgets it and if and when it goes down you know whther it was the ball being played off the d or not.

is it possible to have two reds on the table at once?
yes, just! - but not easy to end this way. so, if the red or pink stay up, and then all the whites are used up, whichever; pink or red sits in the trench is played next and last so to speak. a red is a red obviously but if it is the pink that is left to last it must be called a 'white' and has that value for that shot. then if it stays up and the red is still up then while they both are up, then they are valued as reds. that is just about the only scenario where this can play out like that.

so all the scorer sees on the table is the following (J. Arther Pewty) as they go down a hole;
a red for a double score - as usual
he sees only the pink on the table so it is classed as a red and double score
he sees a red on the table and the pink about to be played from the D (so it should be declared) it is a white. single value.
the red and the pink are both on the table as a white is being played so they are = two reds and double score

If anyone would like to try this, I have a brown, yellow, green, black and blue left. because it is just a switch in your mind, i reckon I could get used to any colour quickly enough but pink is the obvious colour. I'll gladly send it as they have little value to me and I bought the snooker set cheap enough. you have to get the weight right though if buying/borrowing yourself BTW.

In the last two months I have met all here twice and you all know me by now. Nobody would accuse me of having a break shot. even my 70s fall apart after 2 shots but at home I can keep 3 going, switch and then I'm lucky if i get a couple more before the balls pile up around the table. I'm always trying to clear 7 balls away and when that happens nothing goes down!

but the scores i'm getting have to be at least given a nod to from you guys, not at me because you're all my equal, but because i'm clearly not getting 10s and 20s and this si the game you could be playing, not just me. i'm doing reverse 200s (=400 with the red) every other shot at times in open play, like 4-5 times ont he trot. if i ever get this OB right I think i can get to 13,000. I did 11,840 last night. the only "naughty" nod to 'solo play' is that if i miss a 200 i have only set myself up with my next shot!!! but that's like once per game because even in a friendly with my maytes i'd go for a reverse 200 everytime with no hesitation.

My table has the top 5 spread out wide so that the reverse 200 is available between the 10-20 and also between the 20-30. the only way i could do that and still have the reverse corner shot was to push the 5 holes back towards the top cushion and spread them which opens the angles. I digress though.

we had a Sams where we could get 4,000 each when i were a lad. the corner diagonal was on and so was the reverse shot between the 10-20 but the reverse between the 20-30 was really tough. like Dave, we went for our shots.

I wonder if Dave would consider; 'you can have the 200 skittle down once per game'? what do you reckon Dave?

cheers

Taffy

[taffy]

May 29, 2018 21:37:51 GMT tommo III said:

May 29, 2018 21:28:24 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

Like the idea of no black pegs Taffy

Now that would be exciting ! I remove the BP sometimes when I have problems with my cue action and want to improve my straight potting.
Got a break of 30,000 at this once !!!

30,000! 30,000!

what was the timer set too? One week and two days?

Taffy

May 30, 2018 8:51:40 GMT taffy said:

what was the timer set too? One week and two days?
Taffy

No, standard 18 minutes. Straight pots, 400,200,400,200,400 etc.
Work it out, doesn't take much time to rack the 1,000s up. Eventually you'll lose the object ball off a straight line, the skill then is to do an angled shot that gets the break back again.

I find this version really, really exciting.

Diff'rent strokes for different folks, I suppose.

May 30, 2018 6:18:28 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

might be a supermodel but is she fun to be with

certainly, for those who don't have too many demands on her.

[NigelS]

May 30, 2018 10:17:03 GMT tommo III said:

No, standard 18 minutes. Straight pots, 400,200,400,200,400 etc.
Work it out, doesn't take much time to rack the 1,000s up. Eventually you'll lose the object ball off a straight line, the skill then is to do an angled shot that gets the break back again.

I find this version really, really exciting.

Diff'rent strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Ever tried the shot where you remove the black peg and try and pot the red AND the white from the break position both down the 200 hole in one shot.

Not easy but is possible. Sure you will get past your 30k if you perfected that one....

May 30, 2018 11:16:34 GMT NigelS said:

Ever tried the shot where you remove the black peg and try and pot the red AND the white from the break position both down the 200 hole in one shot.
Not easy but is possible. Sure you will get past your 30k if you perfected that one....

Not got the cue power for that one. Taffy might take on the challenge, though.
Had a go at 'no BP' before lunch and was scoring at the rate of 5k every 3 mins before eventually breaking down (sprained wrist still hurting after 3 weeks).

[daveuk1]

I've seen my brother get the 600 break shot in league games on standard tables, but he only goes for on his first break. After that the risk outweighs the benefits unless he's miles behind. On a narrow table he tends to go for a 450 break shot but with a success rate of around 33% and when it fails it often leaves an easy 400 shot for his opponent

[gandalf the untidy]

instead of removing a peg why not add one

[petersoanes]

May 31, 2018 0:10:30 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

instead of removing a peg why not add one

Great to be discussing 4 pin
Vive le difference !
Just leave thing,s as they are 👍

[barbelman]

May 31, 2018 0:10:30 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

instead of removing a peg why not add one

Now I like that - it's like playing 3 pin with extra, extra jeopardy...organise it Colin! 

[Chris_Sav]

May 31, 2018 8:12:33 GMT petersoanes said:

Great to be discussing 4 pin
Vive le difference !
Just leave thing,s as they are 👍

I'll second that any day!!

.......and I'll third it !

No takers for Taffy's proposals ?

[taffy]

er! I wasn't proposing the pink ball thingy as i reckon it'll be too much for people. two reds is the answer. TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAME

I was proposing;
use two reds with only one red allowed on table at one time except when all other balls are used up from the tray.
swop the red and white at the break off with red on the D
any colour ball can be played at anytime after the break shot
allow play while last ball is rimming - just don't touch it with the new shot!
no a break shot can have the same result as previous shot
player allowed to knock over the 200 skittle just once per game (just loses that break score)

for any testing a substitute colour can be used.

try some of these out and report back.

cheers

Taffy