4 pin discussion May 18

Rather surprised that you've closed the entry off for the 4-Pin at 40.......

"I'm all right Jack" but I wonder if some of those who one would normally expect to enter (especially from Sussex) realise that they have missed the boat ?

In a world where most Opens are suffering from reduced numbers, surely you should not be discouraging extra entries - especially as this is now classed as a National event ?

Mar 31, 2018 11:03:37 GMT tommo III said:

Rather surprised that you've closed the entry off for the 4-Pin at 40.......

"I'm all right Jack" but I wonder if some of those who one would normally expect to enter (especially from Sussex) realise that they have missed the boat ?

In a world where most Opens are suffering from reduced numbers, surely you should not be discouraging extra entries - especially as this is now classed as a National event ?

Hi Clive,

Thanks for your comments.

Perhaps this conversation should be under the AEBBA section given that this is an AEBBA event - but nevertheless I will try to set out why the event is as it is.

First, when the event started it was not an All England event - it was devised by Northants in order to offer an opportunity for players in Suffolk and elsewhere to join in the celebration of Bar Billiards that was originally intended for that weekend. It was a success and well supported.

Last year the event took on 'minor open' status and, as such, ranking points were available for competitors. Again, a great event enjoyed pretty much universally by the entrants and that was, in no small part, because of the format. The group stages followed by a plate/main KO split ensured lots of games for all players to really drive home the value of the event.

This year, following discussion with Northants, this was formally taken on as an AEBBA event - kindly hosted by Northants. The key differences here being that AEBBA would manage the promotion of the event, set the price and manage the entries. In addition, AEBBA will be responsible for ensuring that the event is a financial and organisational success - that it drives increased participation for future activities and events. The competition itself will be managed by Northants according to AEBBA rules and/or standards - but it is AEBBA that will simply provide the full list of entries according to the format and offer a revenue share package to Northants as a reward for for hosting and running the event on behalf of AEBBA. During the discussions with Northants it was clearly identified that this event has a very clear identity and that is a lot to do with the format. It was the preference of Northants, as hosts, that this not be altered and that players were able to enjoy the same number of games. I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment and I saw no reason to change this given that the event was not full last year. Had we agreed a straight KO format, the event entries would have instead been open to 64 or more competitors.

I am thrilled that this event has been so well supported and the demand has at least equalled supply. It is a long time since an AEBBA event was sold out and I am proud of our efforts here. We have been significantly better organised, the event has been better promoted and easier for competitors to enter. We have been proactive and this has yielded higher entry numbers. This will continue for future events.

Had we opened up the entry to a larger filed then it would have demanded a change in format and fewer games for players - in this instance it was decided that this would not be appropriate this year. That is not to say that the event will not grow in the future - particularly if we intend (as we most certainly do) to increase demand. Once again, it is great news that we have managed to increase participation in this AEBBA event by 10% on last year (assuming all those who have entered do indeed play) and we will look at future events in the same way.

One of the most important tests for this event is devising a template for future AEBBA events that are hosted by county associations. If we can make this work in a mutually rewarding fashion with high levels of interest and clear organisational responsibilities then we ought to be able to replicate it elsewhere. Meaning that events deliver for competitors, for the AEBBA and for the event hosts (whomever they may be). As you know there are many moving parts that need attention in order for an event to succeed, such as:

• Hosts and organisers on the day
• agreeing event format
• adequate sponsorship
• promotion and management of competition entry
• clear financial and event objectives

This is to name only a few - there are many more. It is the case for this event that Northants has been and shall be responsible for the first two of these elements in agreement with AEBBA, and the AEBBA has taken on responsibility for the rest.

Not only will this event help to create a successful template for others, it will also have an updated look and feel - with much more on offer for competitors and their guests. I am optimistic that everyone that visits this competition will enjoy a fantastic welcome and have a great day. That said, we will always take onboard the feedback that we receive and act on it in an appropriate way.

I very much look forward to seeing everyone there.

Best wishes,

Lorin

Thanks Lorin for your loquacious reply - which I have struggled to absorb, but think I have the gist of:

• the schedule accommodates the exact number of games popular with the competitors
• competition tailored to suit financial considerations
• decision made in advance and no going back

Tell me if I have missed anything, but I still maintain that limiting numbers for any AEBBA competition is a retrograde step.
I hope you will review this again for next year: if you extended it to 48 you could have 16 groups of 3 (sure people wouldn't mind a minimum of 2 games plus a Plate game) and clear-cut final stages. 40 just seems a bizarre number !

Yes - everything will be reviewed at the end of the event. We will discuss what went well and what less so. We will discuss feedback - such as yours and others - and act on it as appropriate.

The aims of every AEBBA event this year will be:

Offer a great environment for competitors and guests

Provide good value for money and excellent playing conditions

Drive participation and increase reach

Ensure the financial and competitive sustainability of the game at a national level

Thanks,

Lorin

[daveuk1]

Also please remember that as said and agreed at the AEBBA agm that the rules for four pin are those used in the EA four pin open, ie if a peg is moved but doesn't fall over it remains in that position until the end of the break, there is NO OPTION for the player to have it put back during his break. These are AEBBA rules as agreed at the agm, if you wish to change them then mine is a pint of the best bitter on offer and the AEBBA and their rule book go out of the window

[Chris_Sav]

May 12, 2018 23:48:34 GMT daveuk1 said:

Also please remember that as said and agreed at the AEBBA agm that the rules for four pin are those used in the EA four pin open, ie if a peg is moved but doesn't fall over it remains in that position until the end of the break, there is NO OPTION for the player to have it put back during his break. These are AEBBA rules as agreed at the agm, if you wish to change them then mine is a pint of the best bitter on offer and the AEBBA and their rule book go out of the window

AEBBA Rule 20 Dave;

20) A.E.B.B.A. recognises and welcomes, but does not administer, the four pin version of Bar Billiards. The rules and playing conditions for the Four Pin variant of Bar Billiards are those currently in force for the East Anglian Four Pin Open.

see barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/19421/current-aebba-rules

That rule has not been amended by subsequent general meeting to my knowledge.

May 13, 2018 8:11:01 GMT Chris_Sav said:

That rule has not been amended by subsequent general meeting to my knowledge.

Was hoping that by now we'd be seeing the most recent set of AEBBA Rules displayed on their website.

[daveuk1]

So its 6 whites and 1 red ball, break spot halfway between the bulk line and the edge of the 200 hole closest to the baulk. Red always in play when available,any mushroom moved but not knocked over remains until the end of break. Top of the table hole scores changed to 10-20-30-20-10, last ball down any hole off any cushion.

Foul shot losing your break
Any peg other than the one covering the 200 hole is knocked over even with the last ball
I think the others are the same as three pin

Foul shots losing your entire score
If with just one ball left it is potted without hitting a cushion
The black peg is knocked over even if another peg has fallen first, I.e. you receive the greatest penalty

[gandalf the untidy]

May 13, 2018 8:39:38 GMT daveuk1 said:

So its 6 whites and 1 red ball, break spot halfway between the bulk line and the edge of the 200 hole closest to the baulk. Red always in play when available,any mushroom moved but not knocked over remains until the end of break. Top of the table hole scores changed to 10-20-30-20-10, last ball down any hole off any cushion.

Foul shot losing your break
Any peg other than the one covering the 200 hole is knocked over even with the last ball
I think the others are the same as three pin

Foul shots losing your entire score
If with just one ball left it is potted without hitting a cushion
The black peg is knocked over even if another peg has fallen first, I.e. you receive the greatest penalty

Don't think it will be 6 whites Dave, the reason for this as i understand it from Dave Alder a while back is that not all sets of balls are the same weight and it isn't worth the risk of getting matched sets of balls mixed up. The other rules are up to Northamts to post, though i'm sure you know my opinions about some of your rules being unfair but i have no authority to force any issues Lets hope that a definitive set of rules for Narrow and wide table 4 pin can be formalised at the next AEBBA AGM. to ensure no misunderstandings occur. Hope you will be able to attend.

Ok - let me clarify before this gets out of hand.

I have amended to competition page to rectify MY MISUNDERSTANDINGS. I offer an unreserved apology for the heartache this has so obviously caused.

The competition on Saturday shall of course adopt the rules as set out by those who organise the EA Open tournament with one exception. The 200 hole shootout rule shall not apply in this event as it is inclined to cause difficulties for group stages matches and rankings. If three people have wiped their scores through this rule how to you rank them after that - nicest shirt colour???

I will address the comments above in turn if I may.

Dave - the confusion was caused by me and was not intentional. I have amended the ruling displayed on the competition page of the AEBBA site (please be aware that they are there mostly to help those who rarely or never play 4-pin) to reflect that a moved peg may only be returned to its spot at the end of break and at no other time. Further - it is not a deliberate act to undermine your rules or to throw an 'agreed' rulebook out of the window. Once again - this is my error for which i apologise.

Chris - thanks for adding the particular AEBBA rule to clarify this confusion. Once again - THIS IS MY FAULT - I'm sorry!! As per our email exchange yesterday evening and this morning I have sought to clarify and remedy the situation in good faith. Of course there has been no further change at this stage to what was adopted when you were there - you were at the AGM after that too. You know there has been no change.

Tommo - I am sorry you are disappointed with the pace that I am able to work. As I have set out to those who have spoken to me directly on this matter (and as many others are in no doubt either) the rule set as they are need a lot of work in order for the AEBBA to function properly in my view and that f a large portion of the committee. This is not about which rules are applied to which competitions but more that nothing can be done unless it is at an AGM and other oddities like that. For clarity - I will be issuing the AEBBA Committee a proposed set of changes to the consolidated sets that both you and Chris Saville have kindly sent to me which will then be proposed for adoption at an EGM (likely to be in July). The changes will not cover things like which rules are used for the AEBBA 4-Pin event - that is clear already - simply this was MY ERROR. But more the rules which enable the AEBBA to function, to raise money, to not be hamstrung from one year until the next, to not offer one county the ability to veto everything for the princely sum of £20 - that kind of thing.

Dave - yes. Have added the 6 whites one red rule. The tables will (as was already clearly stated there) be set up according to 4-Pin rules and the hole values (as was already clearly stated there too) will be set to those of 4-Pin billiards. I have amended the red always in play when available and return of the peg which may have moved. The rule regarding the last ball was also already there. I think the foul shots was clear but will be more explicit on the site.

Hopefully that settles it. But feel free to highlight alert me to anything else that must be changed ahead of Saturday.

Thanks and best wishes,

Lorin

[daveuk1]

Lorin, without reading through our rules I am pretty sure the two hundred hole shoot out was only there incase during the knock stages the two players scores we exactly tied, I.e. one player having won the first leg say 1000 points to zero and in the second leg the other player had won by exactly the same score of 1000 to zero, otherwise how do you decide who goes through without playing a third leg which puts the timing schedules out by at least 20 minutes

Dave

[bigtj]

Lorin I for one realise the large task involved in taking on the secretaries role for the AEBBA and think we can all see the steps forward already made and look forward to that be continued.

The web site is looking good and east to use on the whole even for the old codgers like me.

I am sure the rules will be published in full soonest and that any mistake made on the 4 pin rules was just human error.

Good luck going forward and lets all support Lorin in his role, many ideas are there and sure will be put to best use for the long term good of our game going forward and surviving, as we all know we are still in difficult times and need to work together.

Hi

The 200 shootout rule shall be applied to the knockout stages of both the main competition (from last 16) and the plate competition. including the playoff round.

Lorin

[triplex]

Wouldn’t it be nice just to play billiards this weekend and I don’t know.... have some fun and play the game we all enjoy 🤔.

[taffy]

I'm only saying here what I have said previously to Sav and Tommo, maybe even Tony. I have definately said this to Dave and that is that we should DISCUSS the best rules for the 4-pin game and even have an experimental rules day. Dave will tell you how I have asked more than once.

I started a thread about experimental rule changes and would like to put them forward but there seems nowhere formal to put any proposal. as guardians of the game, and a game that needs much care of as everyone has so much else to do, we need to think about how to make it the best it can be and that takes discussion.

While I feel Sudbury has every right to be considerd first and foremost I don't think that is the way to have national rules. they have to be checked and gone over and not shoe'd in - it's the future of the game. once the quick setting concrete is set we'll never get anything changed.

Taffy

[Chris_Sav]

Every year proposals can be made and seconded to the AEBBA AGM in December to the AEBBA secretary. These are mostly debated under the AGM board on here.


The AEBBA adoption of the East Anglian rules came at a time when that was the only four pin national competition, so the tail wagging the dog was unimportant.

There are now several four pin comps and AEBBA should adopt their own set of rules at the next AGM, but these should be faithful to the current East Anglian rules to begin with at least as we are NOT playing adapted three pin. 

[daveuk1]

Indeed Taffy you have suggested having experimental rules, there is nothing wrong with this and at local level possibly it should be encouraged.

The rules for the Sudbury league have stood for well over 50 years, they are tried and tested. They have had the very odd minor tweak but as a set of rules that have been in existence for over half a century we see absolutely no reason to change them.

Next time you are in the white horse I will introduce you to the white horse friendly rules, everything the same as our normal rules apart from the red ball, if you pot the red ball it only counts as a white but double the value of that ball is also taken off your opponents score, meaning effectively potting the red down the 200 is worth 600. Its fun for the scorer and while playing Casey his score at one time was over minus 2000. It encourages players to make use of the red ball. Also any player whose break reaches 180 has to buy a round of shots. That encourages players to think more about their shots and means we get drunk even quicker.

In other words here in Suffolk we are happy with rules and won't change them to bring it into line with, or for the benefit of the three pin.

Obviously any league or county can choose to do as the please.

My own opinion is Suffolk pays it's twenty quid every year and get very little in return apart from some 3 pin players enjoying our game as it is and entering our tournaments.

The EA open started a few years back and is the longest standing four pin tournament on the circuit, we believe it is the premier four pin tournament. I am sure Suffolk would of been happy to host the eabba national tournament and it could of now been played on proper narrow tables but not even the slightest whisper was mentioned. Like I say these are my thoughts and naff all to do with the Suffolk Bar Billiards Association

Rant over and now looking forward to a great weekend in Northampton. My room is booked so I'll have somewhere to leave my things overnight

[taffy]

let's get this weekend out of the way. It's too close....

Taffy

[barbelman]

It is worth remembering that even with the national (3 pin) AEBBA rules being in 'force' for many years, there are still regional variations in nearly every league.  You cannot expect leagues that has been going for 50 years to suddenly change.  As far as 4 pin leagues are concerned, membership of the AEBBA should not become a chain round the neck of those leagues, otherwise there is very little point in them joining, to be saddled with rules that they have never played, don't want to play and never will play.

Let's keep the diversity and a little bit of flexibility and help from scorers for neophytes when they are playing in 4 pin opens.

Vive la differance....  

[curtd]

May 16, 2018 10:53:24 GMT daveuk1 said:

Indeed Taffy you have suggested having experimental rules, there is nothing wrong with this and at local level possibly it should be encouraged.

The rules for the Sudbury league have stood for well over 50 years, they are tried and tested. They have had the very odd minor tweak but as a set of rules that have been in existence for over half a century we see absolutely no reason to change them.

Next time you are in the white horse I will introduce you to the white horse friendly rules, everything the same as our normal rules apart from the red ball, if you pot the red ball it only counts as a white but double the value of that ball is also taken off your opponents score, meaning effectively potting the red down the 200 is worth 600. Its fun for the scorer and while playing Casey his score at one time was over minus 2000. It encourages players to make use of the red ball. Also any player whose break reaches 180 has to buy a round of shots. That encourages players to think more about their shots and means we get drunk even quicker.

In other words here in Suffolk we are happy with rules and won't change them to bring it into line with, or for the benefit of the three pin.

Obviously any league or county can choose to do as the please.

My own opinion is Suffolk pays it's twenty quid every year and get very little in return apart from some 3 pin players enjoying our game as it is and entering our tournaments.

The EA open started a few years back and is the longest standing four pin tournament on the circuit, we believe it is the premier four pin tournament. I am sure Suffolk would of been happy to host the eabba national tournament and it could of now been played on proper narrow tables but not even the slightest whisper was mentioned. Like I say these are my thoughts and naff all to do with the Suffolk Bar Billiards Association

Rant over and now looking forward to a great weekend in Northampton. My room is booked so I'll have somewhere to leave my things overnight

Hi Dave

I find it very strange that you feel you have got very little in return for your 20 quid .
I think it’s brilliant that you have been able to secure enough narrow tables for your comp but let’s not forget your £20 gave you access to hiring the AEBBA national set of tables in the first place.
This enabled your association to get this competition up and running and kept going for the last 5 years.
This has meant more players have had the chance to play 4 pin and increase its popularity amongst us 3 pinners.

I don’t think that 4-pin would be in as good a place as it is nationally without your association with AEBBA and the very small amount of £20 you had to pay to have access to the tables.
It would still be on a local level and not enjoying the wave of interest from around the country.
£20 well spent me thinks ?

Curt

[daveuk1]

Hi Curt.
Maybe I was a little over the top, but remember we pay our twenty quid as we have done since we joined, we are keen to promote the four pin version and to that part we also paid for Norfolk/Norwich to join the first year. Yes by joining gave as access to hire the AEBBA tables. But if the AEBBA is run as a business I am sure we would of been able to hire the tables without being members, indeed Norwich done it for the first ever four pin open.

We are stuck out on a limb in Suffolk as the only county that plays soley 4 pin. It has been great to see other counties enjoying the 4 pin game to the extent that they set up leagues and competitions to run along aside their 3 pin, this can only be good for everyone. But as four pin grows it seems to me suddenly the AEBBA want to take over. As I've said, we are the longest running four pin league in probably the world, our rules have stood the test of time but after over half a century of basically the same set of rules sudenly people want to change them.
Personally I feel that the break back in single leg games is a good idea and have proposed that change for our open but always been outvoted, the argument being, as we all know consistently hitting high score from the break shot and keeping it going is a lot harder on a narrow table. We play some of our league games on good quality standard tables and know against some opponents it's a case of who wins the toss will probably win the game as the 50-50 split break shot takes over.

As said it was only my thoughts and I'll be waiting to get pounced on at Northants and be more than happy to have a chat over a beer or three.
Dave

Just to say that it hasn't gone unnoticed that Northants (pp. AEBBA) performed a u-turn on the clutch of tweaks they had originally planned for this tournament - which I thought was admirable.
Why fiddle with something that, as Dave said, has worked to satisfaction for 50 years ?
The only suggestion that has any sort of merit to my way of thinking was the old Newmarket way of breaking with the balls round the other way, yielding 110 instead of 70 if you knock it down the table and get both balls in.

[gandalf the untidy]

May 16, 2018 15:54:46 GMT tommo III said:

Just to say that it hasn't gone unnoticed that Northants (pp. AEBBA) performed a u-turn on the clutch of tweaks they had originally planned for this tournament - which I thought was admirable.
Why fiddle with something that, as Dave said, has worked to satisfaction for 50 years ?
The only suggestion that has any sort of merit to my way of thinking was the old Newmarket way of breaking with the balls round the other way, yielding 110 instead of 70 if you knock it down the table and get both balls in.

lots of people doing u turns Tommo and Daveuk, will forward my "common sense" views after the Northants open which i know will be a waste of time but because ..... you will have to wait

PS Probably wants shifting to another thread and perhaps it should be called "how to make bar billiards more fun" mind you there wont be many posts because that seems not to be very important to anyone

PS oops you will have to er.....wait

May 16, 2018 15:15:42 GMT daveuk1 said:

Hi Curt.
Maybe I was a little over the top, but remember we pay our twenty quid as we have done since we joined, we are keen to promote the four pin version and to that part we also paid for Norfolk/Norwich to join the first year. Yes by joining gave as access to hire the AEBBA tables. But if the AEBBA is run as a business I am sure we would of been able to hire the tables without being members, indeed Norwich done it for the first ever four pin open.

We are stuck out on a limb in Suffolk as the only county that plays soley 4 pin. It has been great to see other counties enjoying the 4 pin game to the extent that they set up leagues and competitions to run along aside their 3 pin, this can only be good for everyone. But as four pin grows it seems to me suddenly the AEBBA want to take over. As I've said, we are the longest running four pin league in probably the world, our rules have stood the test of time but after over half a century of basically the same set of rules sudenly people want to change them.
Personally I feel that the break back in single leg games is a good idea and have proposed that change for our open but always been outvoted, the argument being, as we all know consistently hitting high score from the break shot and keeping it going is a lot harder on a narrow table. We play some of our league games on good quality standard tables and know against some opponents it's a case of who wins the toss will probably win the game as the 50-50 split break shot takes over.

As said it was only my thoughts and I'll be waiting to get pounced on at Northants and be more than happy to have a chat over a beer or three.
Dave

I really had thought I'd clarified this in my previous responses. But in case I was not clear let me try one more time.

There is no desire from anyone involved with the AEBBA Committee to force a change of 4-Pin rules onto any county. Period (to use an american vulgarism!). The miscommunication regarding the rules for Saturday's event was my fault - I have apologised for this but am happy to do so one more time - I am sorry for the confusion that I caused. Now - let's move on.

The event is running using the rules adopted for the EA Open as far as I can tell - with the sole exception of the 200 shootout rule and that equal breaks shall be in force for the single leg matches. The 200 shootout rule is not compatible with group stage matches and so cannot be adopted with the current format of the event. If the event were a straight knockout tournament (like the EA Open - or any other 3-Pin Open) then it would have been used throughout. Then again - if it were a straight knockout tournament we may not have enough differentiators from the EA Open and therefore may not have enjoyed the desired uptake of entries. That said - the 200 shootout rule will be in force during the knockout stages of the event on Saturday in both Championship and Plate competitions. As for the use of Equal Breaks - I am glad you support that. My personal view is that it is far better to use Bar Billiards ability as the key differentiator in a match rather than add in the good fortune of a positive coin toss.

Nothing that I am saying in this post is new - I have tried to make it clear to all in the last few days.

It therefore comes as a little bit of a surprise that you feel that the AEBBA is trying to take over. Let me be absolutely clear - we do not want to do that. If I may, let me clarify the strategy on events a little - it may help.

I believe that the AEBBA events (all of them) can be and should be improved. I have sought to focus a considerable amount of my time and energies on how we do this and I believe some of this will bear fruit as early as this year (even as early as this event!). I want to see AEBBA events as engaging, as prestigious, as rewarding, as welcoming and as professional as they can be. Most of all - I want them to be more enjoyable and more consistent. If we can make the required changes to our events in order to achieve this, I believe we can start to improve the entry numbers and the viability of our competitions. I have no such desire to impact regional events, opens etc. Counties are free to run the events as they see fit, as they think works best for them and, so long as they are compliant for RP attribution, then they should enjoy whatever aspects make them unique.

I hope we will see a more consistent approach and delivery to AEBBA events this year and we shall then see what impact it has. I will consider success to be better and more positive feedback, larger entry numbers and financial sustainability.

I think it is sensible to have this as a priority and it is why, along with seeking sponsorship, I have not yet delivered some of the changes required regarding the rule set.

As for AEBBA events which are hosted by counties (such as this event on Saturday) - I have had several priorities here and they include - creating a model of promotion, recruitment, financing and delivery which suit the ambitious objectives I have just highlighted for these events. In creating a model that works, we can then offer these tournaments out to counties who wish to host them in full confidence that they can meet the objectives we have for the events. That they are consistent with other AEBBA events, that they work to the financial model created and that the division of labour and reward is equitable. I am very pleased with how this is working with the AEBBA 4-Pin - our first attempt at creating this model and I am confident that we will have something that can be replicated with other AEBBA events.

If that means that Suffolk/Sudbury or anyone else wants to throw their hat into the ring to host an AEBBA event in future then that would be great. We will have a clear template of how it ought to work and thus make it easier for counties to both participate and to see the reward for doing so. Does that make sense?

I would love to continue this conversation at the events this weekend rather than take up too much of this important event thread with discussion that would probably be best had on another.

Best wishes,

Lorin

[NigelS]

Have to concur that the AEBBA do not want to take over the 4 pin game. We all respect that the heart of the 4 pin game is in Suffolk/ Norfolk and we also think it great that Northants hold their 4 pin tournament in conjunction with their 3 pin open on the Sunday. The numbers that have entered for both tournaments this year indicate they are a success given that other tournaments are struggling.

Of course Sudbury don't have to pay their £20 to be part of the AEBBA, but it would be a shame if they didnt, they should be part of the bar billiard family. As Curt mentioned you do get quite a bit for your £20 as you can enter any AEBBA events you want to plus all the results go onto the AEBBA website for posterity and your players feature in the AEBBA rankings.

We don't want to get like pool here where they can't agree on the rules and this ends up rival bodies running their game. With tournaments such as this the organisers run it to their rules...it is no different from jersey being off the spot and mainland competitions off the 'D'

Anyway looking forward to seeing you all at the weekend!

May 16, 2018 15:54:46 GMT tommo III said:

Just to say that it hasn't gone unnoticed that Northants (pp. AEBBA) performed a u-turn on the clutch of tweaks they had originally planned for this tournament - which I thought was admirable.
Why fiddle with something that, as Dave said, has worked to satisfaction for 50 years ?
The only suggestion that has any sort of merit to my way of thinking was the old Newmarket way of breaking with the balls round the other way, yielding 110 instead of 70 if you knock it down the table and get both balls in.

What you call an AEBBA U-turn, Clive - I prefer to state it more accurately as my misunderstanding which I have corrected. Let's try not to make this more than it really is, eh?

[BigPhilMac]

Gentlemen this discussion over rules seems to be getting a bit unnecessarily jagged and out of hand.

Surely there's a time and a place for all these things and that being the next AGM.

It doesn't seem fair on Lorin that he is being made to really carry the can over a slight misunderstanding and the tone of this discussion is becoming very pointed.

[daveuk1]

I think maybe a group hug is in order over the weekend.
By the way I've been told to have my serious head on while playing,,,,
I mean can you really see that happening.

[bigtj]

Agree with Phil, Lorin has apologised for an oversight and I do believe we are detracting from what is always a great weekend.

[taffy]

May 16, 2018 16:09:16 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

another thread and perhaps it should be called "how to make bar billiards more fun" mind you there wont be many posts because that seems not to be very important to anyone

PS oops you will have to er.....wait

well said and one I advocate. so you're not alone there.

I don't want to change sudbury's rules, but if sudbury want their rules to go national then they cross the bridge and can be challenged.

although dave you say that you've had the same set of rules for 50 years, you haven't. new lines marked this year, going to narrow tables and a competition still in its infancy and indeed had its baptism in narrowness just two months ago!

agree with Barbelman/Tony 100% too. on the money.

Taffy