4 pin discussion May 18

Taffy, a lot of your 'enhancements' - and those of Gandalf for that matter - seem to be designed to 'speed the game up'.

Perhaps your appetite might be sated by the introduction of a "Speed Break" competition, which has proved popular in certain 3-Pin circles in the past.
One table is set aside for the event duration, and it's like a stall at a fair: you pay a pound a go and have 1, 2 or 3 minutes to score as many as you can in one break. The winner takes half the pot and the other half goes to Charity.

Possibly worth considering at a future 4-Pin event ?

[taffy]

I would rather put it another way, "delay" is no good at all, to anyone. if we are talking about the game being popular and not just pipe and slippers then yeh no delay is what I'm about.

also, as I said, there is the interesting juxtaposition of fast and less danger and slow and accurate. when ever sport can let small find space against big, lythe against power I always think it's most interesting. all these sports where one size is NOT the only one are best because then you get your different characters!

best thing to do is, experiment! my first experiment was with a white ball that felt-tipped on 6 sides (irish. but you get my drift). I also have fast pockets on mine and as my pins are weighted they are 'quick' too! so the whole thing is 'in keeping'. you give the balls a thump and get them back up towards the 200, 100 and 50 holes.

anyway, I did my first video yesterday and got stage fright! I forgot my lines and panzered the pins but I still (eventually) have a 20-minute video of a 10,030 point game on tape. however, I will try 300 more times and then put up a 12,000 film with a 'lucky first time, would you believe it!' title.

taffy

If you're a fan of fast play, Taffy, I reckon you should attend one of the 3-Pin opens and watch Milko in full flight !
There's also a clip on YouTube of Steve Mariner making 10,000 at a rate of 1750 per minute.
"Fast-track Phil" Collins is also awesome to watch, though he seems to limit his appearances these days.
Then there's the two Marks: World Champion Trafford is both fast and accurate, and the winner of the Northants Open on the Sunday, Brewster, has been described as "only knowing one way to play, at 100 miles an hour"

[gandalf the untidy]

Looks like the words "flowing" "promoting" "increasing the fun" and "Making the game fairer" are of no consequence to anyone but Taffy and I.

Wonder if Curt/Simon/Nigel would put forward their views otherwise an opportunity to move forward will be lost.

Am feeling like making a proposal at AEBBA AGM to bring in a wide table set of rules to run separately from the Narrow table rules then over time there may be some convergence

[daveuk1]

Speeding up the four pin would only lead to frustration for some.

I'm old and I know it's hard to imagine but, some of our players are even older than me, some have disabilities, problems with walking etc. and some are just "slow players" it takes some of our players a few seconds to just get to the table and then they have to steady themselves between shots, waiting for the red gives them a welcome rest. On the other hand four pin games are usually a lot closer than 3 pin and speed isn't the most important thing, its accuracy and having the guts to bring balls back it the 100, 50's and 200 hole. Just imagine how annoying it could be to an opponent, you are a few hundred in front, time is running out, you don't have to wait for the red but of course you do, couldn't your opponent complain saying you're being unsporting?
If you are going to say you dont have to play the red everytime then you should take the rule one step further and say if the red is potted it can't be used as the CUE ball on your next shot of that break.
If it ain't broke don't try to fix it. Four pin is about having fun

I can understand Gandalf still obsessing over 4-Pin rule changes as this dates back to when I ran the Crawley Summer League and you put your hat in the ring then. We however saw nothing wrong with the Sudbury set and (stubbonly) adhered to those. No complaints were levelled at the time about unfairness or lack of fun; and our contingent certainly couldn't be accused of taking it too seriously while it lasted.

But I am at a loss to see where Taffy is coming from. He won the 2018 East Anglian so why on earth should he want to change anything at all ? You don't see Paul Sainsbury for instance after winning the 2018 Surrey Open clamouring for no penalty for hitting a ball before another has dropped, or asking for no penalty for felling the black !

[taffy]

I think we need to focus on two things here. one is to try these things. not just talk about them but go out and try them, get some buddies to try them for kicks and giggles. get them thinking about it.

I thought we were talking about the future of the game? about making it a better game? better for the yuff?

staying the same is killing most table sports like this. How do you get a half interested person to spend more time and their money on another game of BB and not just the one off game to say that you've done it?

the reason I won the open is because I practiced a lot and I enjoy practicing but I did it because every single game is fun and I practiced with my own rules and transferred them to the competition. By having two reds i practiced more than any other player reading this thread.....neh! see! I've given away my tips n tricks!

we're talking and not doing.

secondly, we're being classicaly sidetracked here. stick to the game. not about someone who once said this or that. stick to rule changes and their consequences. think about the game, its future and not about yourself or your own personal gain.

we should change the rules to my suggestion, take 6 wide tables, stick them in a high St and say; "play for free, what do you think to this game?" as the ball stops anywhere around the 50 you tell people the shot for a guaranteed 50. let us recall that to the beginner the three pins are like a wall, so are the 4 pins except that having got past one there is another bugger hiding behind it.

people have got to get past that initial game and find joy in the game or it has to die. I don't want to get into personal comments but let's do this for the future and not talk about demographics, octagenarians, 1999 et al. just focus on wht YOU think would make this a better game.

on another note. I usually play better in daylight but at 8.30pm last night I just couldn't stop scoring and obliterated my best score. I got 14,440. that is 2,750 more than my pervious best. It was insane. with a comment like this i realise I'm going to have to come up with some kind of proof. so for £7 I have bought an expensive tripod off ebay to mount the mobile phone on.

i'll just have to keep filming until I repeat it. I knew I was doing well and didn't get a bad case of the 'yips' just a hiccup or two. the trouble is now, that my perfect game is like a machine and reduced to two or three types of shot. I knew things were going quite well and I passed 10,000 and the clock sounded slightly stronger than usual. I normally get the 'yips' at this time but I just turbo's in the scores.

I really need to put up a video somewhere. but (and Dave will get this) I prefered it when I got 10,000 by just dealing with surviving with balls permanently on the baize rather than clean break shots. at the moment, when I still see a ball tempting me between the 10 and 20 for a reverse 200/400 i'm taking it and it can sometimes be "end of break".

When i first watched Nigel last summer, I was a little surprised that he didn't go for a simple 'tap in the 50' but then i realised it was the break shot, the break shot STUPID!!! then i got it! dave and I have never considered 4-pin to be about the break shot.

the balls stay up, you miss, so then you build your score in other ways. now I get it!

so our job here is to think of all the parameters, think for other people, think of the speed, the pace, think about the scores, think about the risk v the reward.

if you don't have any skill you stick to the top, I think we'd all agree on that? the game is played at the top of the table. we just need to allow a speedy player not taking much of a risk to play quick reptitve low scoring shots while the better players go for the OB at a lower speed.

but at the moment the better players are having it both ways and that is why there is an INBALANCE in our game! we need to right that wrong.

So if I play the top 5, my (presently) red takes longer to get to the top AND then to come back than the OB red! and the beginner is the guy who misses a lot and then waits an eternity for the ball to return. you might as well tell them they have doggy doos on their shoes.....

but by having two reds or some such, straight away we can allow the person playing at the far end of the table to prepare and indeed to play their next shot. then you get that balance back.

what you end up with is the very careful 150 OB shot
V
the not too careful 110 shot (NMKT balls)
V
stack em and whack um around the outside (safely) 70-80 (red and white in the 20 & 30 - either combo)

if you can create a game that anyone can play and have a fair chance at then you are producing a really good game.

it's just finding it?

we should be putting arguments forward here based on a lifetime of experience and putting 'the other point of view' the one we forgot or had passed us by? like my comment about the beginner and a 'wall of skittles' etc. let's not lose sight of that.

taffy

Let's get some focus here........4-Pin comprises about 5% of the bar billiards world.

The remaining 95% of us - 3-PINNERS - see 4-Pin as an interesting diversion for just a couple of weekends a year. Once Northants is past, we will forget about it completely from June right round until next March.

Taffy, you're a complete maverick. You own your own table and have limitless opportunity for practice to hone your own skills. The only way you're going to get new players interested is to continue your publicity drive in the Cambs/Newmarket area with a view to ultimately starting up a league.
This can be low key to begin with: open house for your mates with a "ladder competition" and then get a local pub to install a table and run singles competitions much like newly-affiliated Nottinghamshire are doing.

Youngsters who play 4-Pin for fun do actually exist, you know: these are to be found in Norwich whose comparatively new League continues to thrive.

I can well imagine what their reaction would be if you tried to foist changes to 4-Pin rules on to them: Make it a better game ? More enjoyable ? I think not.

You live in the traditional 'Snookerette' catchment area and could do a lot to regenerate the interest by seeking out the Fenland players who still play apparently. But you won't achieve anything by blurring the lines regarding rules.

[daveuk1]

4 pin is popular. around a year ago the white horse didn't have a table. Excluding organised tournaments over the past couple of weeks the table has taken £145. That's 145 games played on it in 14 days, that's an average of about 10 games per day, over three hours a day, not bad for a pub that's only open for 11 hours a day meaning for nearly a quarter of the opening hours the table is in use.
We have rules pinned to the wall and if anyone who knows how to play is around they will always offer friendly help and advice on how to play and the best shots.
As we obtain more and more narrow tables hopefully we will see the decline in supreme table around the area. Having said I have played on some excellent supreme tables and once you remember where the coin slot is so saving your knuckles they can be very enjoyable to play on.
I think it's fair to say Suffolk will listen to any proposed rule changes but apart from very minor things the committee will vote to keep our rules just the same as they have been for the last half of a century and more.
As four pin continues to grow there has to be a time when an alternative rules 4 pin tournament is an option, but I think that's still a couple of years away. Until then let's stick to rules in force and continue to enjoy bar billiards for what it should be, a pub game to be played and enjoyed while drinking a beer and having fun, not taking it to seriously and everyone drinking tango all day. We all appreciate and agree drivers shouldn't drink and drive and that's why we use taxis to get to our away games

Jun 1, 2018 13:17:04 GMT daveuk1 said:

As four pin continues to grow there has to be a time when an alternative rules 4 pin tournament is an option, but I think that's still a couple of years away.

That's what the Sunday tourney at Northants is ! 4-Pin being one of 3 AEBBA alternative versions of the game (the others are Off-The-Spot and "Triangles").
An alternative rules to alternative rules 4-Pin sounds a bit unwieldy to me !!!

[daveuk1]

An alternative four pin, which by the aebba rules has to be played to the rules used in the EA Open?
No offence but I'm almost starting to think four pin may be better off with out the aebba and the idea of copyrighting the name All Enngland Four Pin Bar Billiards Association could be the way forward, it has already been suggested, it would effectively take away all the cr@p and leave the two associations to either work together or go their separate ways. Let's face it, I've finished work early, already had a few beers but, before Norwich how many three pin players had actually played four pin at a league level? Now some want to change our rules, some changes I personally agree with, but why would Suffolk want to change their long standing rules just to fall in line with three pin? The games are totally different, 4 pin played for the social and fun side, no player regularly able to get a game winning first break, so why the break back, the second player will only ever be left with two balls on the table, if that player is good enough to score well off the break shot but not good enough to pot the two balls maximum plus the cue ball then he doesn't deserve to be handed the break, I appreciate in 3 pin where the break shot is repeated constantly followed by a one up it is far more important.
Rant over for now I need more beer

[bobhall]

Jun 1, 2018 15:10:49 GMT daveuk1 said:

An alternative four pin, which by the aebba rules has to be played to the rules used in the EA Open?
No offence but I'm almost starting to think four pin may be better off with out the aebba and the idea of copyrighting the name All Enngland Four Pin Bar Billiards Association could be the way forward, it has already been suggested, it would effectively take away all the cr@p and leave the two associations to either work together or go their separate ways. Let's face it, I've finished work early, already had a few beers but, before Norwich how many three pin players had actually played four pin at a league level? Now some want to change our rules, some changes I personally agree with, but why would Suffolk want to change their long standing rules just to fall in line with three pin? The games are totally different, 4 pin played for the social and fun side, no player regularly able to get a game winning first break, so why the break back, the second player will only ever be left with two balls on the table, if that player is good enough to score well off the break shot but not good enough to pot the two balls maximum plus the cue ball then he doesn't deserve to be handed the break, I appreciate in 3 pin where the break shot is repeated constantly followed by a one up it is far more important.
Rant over for now I need more beer

Dave if you wish to leave aebba leave at the end of the day we are trying to help you and support the game this is something you seem to be strugglimg to understand.

Quite frankly i couldnt give a dam what your rules are i will play to them and your find 3pinners adapt to the game 4pinners dont and this proved that in Northampton. Some rules could benifit with change but if it aint broke dont fix it

[daveuk1]

Bob I wouldn't be a part of aebba but as part of Suffolk I abide by their decision. It would give me great pleasure to play you at real four pin, played on a narrow top. I'm sure you realised at the 4x4 last year that a narrow table makes all difference. This could go one of two ways now, we both fall out or agree that Suffolk is the home of four pin, shake hands and buy each other a few beers next time we meet, I hope it's the later, but personally I've had more than enough beers at the moment and have no intention of turning this into a war.
We adapt our game every week but we can't compete on aebba tables that we play on just once a year much the same as three pin players, apart from the very best, can adapt to narrow tables they play on just once a year, think that was more than proved at the 4x4 (all three pin teams going out in the first round) the bay horse (just our pub team not a Suffolk side) beating the England select four pin national side. Let's face, it's what you are used to playing and up here in Suffolk it's 4 pin

[taffy]

I'm 4-pin Dave, is it OK then for me to have an opinion? those 3-pinners have played a lot of games and are now qualified to have a view on these matters. yes at the beginning, they played the game to see how it is done but let's remember that they still had 50% of the semi and finalists in March.

and don't threaten people dave with either or, its a debate. nobody is talking about your suffolk/sudbury rules here. the AEBBA have adopted your suffolk rules dave out of respect to you, out of deference to you, your league and your commitment but there are diffeerent rules in all the different areas and they don't get a shout and you have a choice either you carry on with 'don't fix it unless its broke' AND accept that people just go along with the rules as they are. they don't care Dave, they don't give a rats arse. so the rules remain 'mostly' unchallenged and certainly it isn't the reponsibility of Sudbury to 'widen the appeal of the game and reach a younger audience'. that's not your job over there is it?

anon
I don't see 'don't fix it unless it is broke as an answer to anything!' in my trade if it's rattling you turn the engine off and get it repaired. the "first mistake is the cheapest" is another. euphemisms!!!!

taffy

[daveuk1]

Do you know what? I dont give a flying duck
You lot get on with it, in a few years you may of managed to create a game Almost as boring as three pin when a average player comes up against a top player and the result is a certainty before the first ball has even been hit.
Sorry but a few people, yourself, Taffy, included are trying to make 4 pin more fun for everyone, but 4 pin is the minority, three pin is supposed to be the national game so why not take some steps to promote that and make that more fun? No wonder it is slowly starting to die. The idea of the AEBBA is to promote the game. Come on, if you chucked your quid on the table, win the toss, had the break and that was your only shot would you bother putting another pound down? The gap between the top 3 pin players is getting wider by the week,even some 3 pin opens are finding it harder to get entries, why because people are getting fed up with paying £11 pounds to enter a tournament they quite possibly Will only get 3 frames and one of those they may well spend most of the time sitting down. Four pin isnt like that, in our open you pay a tenner, we raise money for charity, other opens struggle to break even, you get three group games plus then either go into the main or plate comp and no matter who you play you know you wont get humiliated and lose by 20K. So why the fleck try to change things?
Im still happy to enter the odd 3 pin open as Canon fodder but by the time you have read this I will no longer be part of any bar billiards association as ive had enough of all the sh|*

[Chris]

Hi Dave

I have altered your post to 'don't give a flying Duck'.

Dave - you are totally missing a point and letting others drag you in totally. Without consulting us 3 pin people.

To be honest many of us 3 pin players including me LOVE 4 pin.

I have won AEBBA Ladies IKO 5+ times... Played the table out in a an AEBBA Final at Oxford for over 11K.. ( Has Nigel got that one on record ? ) and with a broken arm !!! Hence I won it when plastered !!!

What I love is our new challenge in 4 pin. What I know is you all are great people............. What I know is I don't do 11k anymore !!!

Stop listening to those that want to change things.

Go with the Sudbury 4 Pin, your rules and your committee rule it and its future.

We can all make comments and ask but Sudbury decide .... Be strong and just enjoy ...

My best wishes
Chris

Just be you and your game is FAB !!!

[Chris]

Dear others on this thread...

I truly don't understand what your issues are ?? WHY you are questioning as you don't seem to have your desired outcomes highlighted ??

There are fabulous 3 pin players e.g. Curt and I give him his due he takes the 4 pin as it comes. Win or Lose. He as far as I am aware just enters the competition as it stands with no questions - a true genuine person of the game of Bar Billiards !!

So how will this thread ..

Ensure a better quality 4 PIN ? What is wrong with it ? It is fabulous
Promote the game of 3 or 4 Pin to the wider public ??
Ensure higher entries ?
Encourage the younger generation ?

But I may have missed the point of the thread totally ... happy to be enlightened as to how it is promoting Bar Billiards and ensuring all forms 3 or 4 pin are being supported x

I do believe we are haviing what Mrs Merton used to describe as a 'heated debate'. And the usual protagonist is now living across the waves in the Canaries !!!
It is good to see some new people having an involvement. I can vouch for Chrissie being a kindred spirit to 4-Pin, when the two versions reached out to each other five years ago (yes bridges were built) I really thought the game would be right up Mr Chris's street as he is capable of playing the most extravagant and bizarre (and successful) shots the like of which I've never seen before.
Unfortunately being stuck out in Pompey (almost as far away as you can get from 4-Pin activity) they don't get to enter every event. But I'd sooner see bold, inventive, shots played than the mechanical stuff. And both DaveUK and Taffy are capable of 'bringing something special' to the table so let's not fall out !

Unfortunately Taffy sometimes comes up with a sweeping statement and has to be reined in !! The latest is his challenge to the very sensible mantra "if it ain't broke don't try and fix it."
I used to own a classic car, a box-shaped Ford Anglia 100E (side-valved engine) I'd owned it for about seven years when my kid brother decided that I would benefit from new spark plugs, which he bought and fitted for me as a birthday surprise.....When I started up the engine there was a hideous clunking noise, as they were the wrong size and completely bent the valves. It had been running perfectly well before but I was now faced with an expensive repair bill. So the best intentions can often prove to be misguided.

Dave, hopefully the feeling will pass (once you've sobered up !) The game needs you.

tommo

[gandalf the untidy]

Jun 1, 2018 19:03:24 GMT Chris said:

Dear others on this thread...

I truly don't understand what your issues are ?? WHY you are questioning as you don't seem to have your desired outcomes highlighted ??

There are fabulous 3 pin players e.g. Curt and I give him his due he takes the 4 pin as it comes. Win or Lose. He as far as I am aware just enters the competition as it stands with no questions - a true genuine person of the game of Bar Billiards !!

So how will this thread ..

Ensure a better quality 4 PIN ? What is wrong with it ? It is fabulous
Promote the game of 3 or 4 Pin to the wider public ??
Ensure higher entries ?
Encourage the younger generation ?

But I may have missed the point of the thread totally ... happy to be enlightened as to how it is promoting Bar Billiards and ensuring all forms 3 or 4 pin are being supported x

Hi Chrissie see below my opening comments following the northants comp,no one has yet commented that my suggestions are wrong or not an improvement or will make the the game less fun and thats probably because all my points are correct, if you or others would like to disagree with any of the points below please do so. not trying to stress anyone out, just trying to make things better, more fool me!

Now that the air is clear, i thought it was time to put across my views on 4 pin, Please be aware that the points below are aimed at making the game as much fun as possible and as fair to each player as possible and to ensure that players are not on the wrong side of a rule which reduces the fun of participation in the game which i prefer to play over 3 pin. My comments are for discussion with the hope that the AEBBA will recognise the intent to formulate rules for the benefit and promotion of 4 pin and enhance the future of the game. I also understand that committees involved in the the narrow version don't want to change their rules even though they may agree with the arguments and reasoning behind any changes. So there will be difficulties ahead for all concerned

As far as i remember there was no discussion of 4 pin rules at the 2017 AEBBA AGM, the last time it was discussed was 2016 AEBBA AGM, at that time the Northants open was not an AEBBA open but was in the process of being adopted and i was tasked with advising the AEBBA with some possible rules that could be discussed, which i did, but nothing was done after that so here goes.

1. Pin positions
To define the distance of the pin from the hole, because nothing is specified, it has caused unnecessary strife as pegs are moved to suit some players to the detriment of others. as you all may be aware, at Sudbury a while back the 50 hole pegs only were moved to be touching the hole to stop the 50/50 break leaving the 100 and 200 pegs at a reasonable distance from the hole. At Northants the pegs were moved closer to the holes after i had placed them, the side effect was also to make the high scoring shots of the back cushion equally as hard as the 50/50 break. The peg positions therefore need to be specified to such a distance from the hole so that there is a reasonable risk to benefit ratio. With the recent positioning of pegs this ratio is wrong with the risks outweighing the benefits which resulted in a severe reduction in difficult shots being attempted, which as i understand is against the 4 pin ethos of going for shots, so this is not a good road to travel down. This for me it is a backward step leaving most to revert to a less exciting break shot to the back cushion, the double wammy here is that scores are reduced and also slows the game down, so that's 2 factors that make the game less fun for me.

2. Returning the pin once moved but not falling
This has happened to all players at some time, the peg is moved from it's position but doesn't fall, so the incumbent player has had some luck in not knocking down a peg and then also gets an advantage in playing the rest of his break with the pockets not covered correctly, then when the break is finished the peg is then replaced so the advantage to the second player is not carried on, i would suggest that either the peg remains in its new position until felled and then replaced, this however could lead to some silly scores if the black peg is moved sufficiently, so this is not a realistic option, or the peg is replaced immediately to minimise the unfair advantage.

3. Must use the red
This rule has been discussed repeatedly but no one can remember the reason why this rule is on the books, for me it slows the game down for both players so again you result in lower scores and game that doesn't flow, why not just change the rule to use any balls (accept or even when breaking) and make the game flow with the benefit of increased enjoyment for both participants

4. 6 or 7 balls
With leagues where games are played with 7 balls, i don't see a benefit in taking a ball from the tray, as someone has to look after it and return it to the tray at the end, also in tournaments where multiple sets are used mixing the balls could be detrimental to later events if balls with unmatched weights are accidentally placed in the wrong sets.

5 Toss for break
clearly, those that lose all their tosses in a tournament are at a disadvantage, is it not simpler just to play as drawn to ensure an equal number of breaks for each player and have a double break where single legs games are specified

6 Bulk Line
This has now been resolved in tournaments but its not specified in a rule as far as i know and should be

PS will be playing 4 pin as often as i can whatever rules are used but lets make it as fair and as much fun as we can

[triplex]

May 31, 2018 19:10:54 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

Looks like the words "flowing" "promoting" "increasing the fun" and "Making the game fairer" are of no consequence to anyone but Taffy and I.

Wonder if Curt/Simon/Nigel would put forward their views otherwise an opportunity to move forward will be lost.

Am feeling like making a proposal at AEBBA AGM to bring in a wide table set of rules to run separately from the Narrow table rules then over time there may be some convergence

Personally I preferred the rules that we played the first year we started our 4 Pin Open, but obviously as we ran it under the AEBBA we have to follow their rules. And I must say before anything that I’m glad we did as well as I feel it was our most successful 4 Pin tournament to date which I feel was achieved because of the backing of the AEBBA.

1, I feel waiting for the red definitely needs changing, not just to speed the game up so you can chase points etc, I just feel it’s slows the game down too much whereas you can be playing and enjoying the game ranther than just waiting for the ball to spin and spin and then drop before you can play another shot.

2, Keeping the Pin where it is until the players break is finished is also interesting as I feel if someone is daring enough to move the pin and risk knocking it over then they should get some credit for it.

3, I am one of the players who attempts the 50/100 break shot (Not very good though) but enjoy the fun trying it. i think if people are capable of getting it then congratulations to them for being that good, you can’t moan at them for doing it when it’s a perfectly legal shot. Saying that I would say you wouldn’t want the pins too far away from the holes though as if it’s too easy then I feel that’s defeats the object.

4, In a 1 leg game I feel you have to have even breaks as I don’t feel anyone should have that much of an advantage because a Ross of a coin.

I would like to say though I am not saying that Anything is wrong with Sudbury rules, I enjoy playing in their open and respect all the rules they impose and will again happily enter and play in their open again next year.
I am talking about AEBBA Alternative game of 4 Pin, and these are my opinions and not of The Northants League.

[barbelman]

This discussion is getting a bit out of hand and people are getting brow-beaten and/or angry - please keep it concise and civil as it's only a game of billiards ATEOTD.....

When the national standardised rules for 3 pin were formulated, I think it's true to say that we were all basically playing the same game anyway apart from MINOR enhancements.  It's different with 4 pin as these leagues are as old as 3 pin leagues (and deserve the same respect) and have developed their rules in isolation to suit the type of table and local temperament.

Celebrate the diversity - if AEBBA want their 4 pin run differently then OK, if Sudbury are different then OK, if the Taffy 4-pin or Gandalf 4-pin tournaments are different then OK.  Tell me the rules when I start playing and off we go....

Personally I think being able to play the 150 break shot ruins the ethos of the 4 pin game (and yes, I am crap at it!) and thought the year the pins were set very close to fifties was the best competition yet.  Last year at Sudbury was interesting but I think i'm too old to cope with all those extra inches....     I'll still play though....

Love and peace 

Tony

[taffy]

Gandalf
thanks for getting this thread back on track. I'll add my 2p to your points;

1) i think we can only move the pegs back and away from the pocket (which we should) IF we can sort out the repitive shot first. sort that somehow and then yes, move it. you'ver not dealt with that yet.

2) this is a weird one because you can move a pin till there's no chance of hitting it at all! even when you get the shot wrong that would have had the pin over before, now that it has been nudged out the way it is just a safe tap. what to do though because when a player is in full flow, he doesn't deserve the scorer standing up, staring all over the pin like a badly fitted suit and moving it AFTER EVERY SHOT! so I would say that you have to come up with a rule that means the player is only interrupted after 'x' attempts or pin has moved 'X'mm over. something like that.

3) If we can't get this rule changed we're doomed. we have got to speed the game up. yes, use a white instead of the red. my fear is that we need two reds and your halfway answer will sooth the doomsayers and we'll be stuck with it and nothing else but yes, I reckon this must be the number 1 priority.

4) seven balls if not 8 because of two reds.

5) i think you've got this one wrong completely. 16 names on a list right, all in order 1-16 and off we go. that means the 1st player always breaks off all the way to the final and 16th player never breaks off at all.

6) I have asked Dave about the baulk line rule. it is possible for the new angled lines for a ball to cross it, hit the cushion and come back into the playing zone. so is it a foul shot when it crosses the line or where it stops? where it stops surely?


well, I practice what I preach. and I've tried the changes - have you? I've let my friends try them and they don't care...where's the beer? part of the joy of making changes is that first you have to be attacked as a person for even being misguided enough to think you know a better way. that's why things get stuck.

Gandalf, do you have any ideas on testing some ideas? i guess if this was to move forward to the AGM, it would carry a lot more weight if it could be said that we have tried and tested these changes etc etc. maybe a test league? I've suggested two tables in a room and just invite people along and as the day progresses different things are changed and votes are taken. There are two tables are at the Cock in Northampton usually. If you've got two tables down sarf we could do it there?

In Rugby, Australin Colleges and all the Cambridge University colleges played each term under experimental laws (laws in rugby) and then passed the results on to the IRB. They reckoned the best law they passed that was never adopted was during the period of airiel ping-pong that was going on when a player catching the ball could call the 'Mark' from anywhere on the pitch and not just inside his own 22. it stopped the ping-pong overnight but the kiwis didn't want it and that was that (powerful bunch the all blacks, what they say nowadays generally goes).

so things need to be tested Gandalf otherwise the doomsayers will just keep attacking people like us with ideas like the comments above. poeple are waiting for this to move forwards or die and in the absense of any other suggestions we need to move it on.

i don't have a league. But i do have a table and if needs be i'll gladly unbolt it and bring it to a suitable place. I'd prefer Suffolk/Sudbury were involved and i don't believe Dave speaks for everyone in Suffolk when he says these things.

For those that don't know, I've said to Dave that he should be at the vanguard of experimental changes for AEBBA (as opposed to Suffolk)rules. "stay at the forefront Dave or others will have their own ideas one day, they won't just meekly follow 'us' forever". So I'd like to see Suffolk involved but failing Dave taking up the offer we will have to move on.

Something has just occured to me Dave.

do you recall when you met my friends over at The White Horse the first time and the two girls played as well? I did ask the lads about what they thought of 'the game, "is there anything you like about the game?" and they replied "not a thing!" all 3 of them.

red on the D and white object ball plus the narrow table were i think all that seperated our old league and yours. remind me if I'm wrong. but we can't do any reverse shots on the narrow tables, only the 100. the digonals are gone.

and Tommo, that Ford Anglia was a 105e not a 100e. the 100e was the Ford Poplar. there's your brothers first mistake - listening to you! LOL!!!!

Taffy

[barbelman]

That's enough now Taffy - we have heard your views many times in some very long, tedious messages.  As you say you are one man with a table and it is not reasonable to expect anyone to agree with your more radical ideas.

You are also treading a fine line in being rude to people and then trying to disguise it with a weak joke.

Tony

Jun 2, 2018 8:54:12 GMT taffy said:

...and Tommo, that Ford Anglia was a 105e not a 100e. the 100e was the Ford Poplar. there's your brothers first mistake - listening to you! LOL!!!!
Taffy

Bloody hell, Taffy, I ought to know what car I owned: it was a 100E (also available as a Prefect or a Popular).
Like this one:


The 105E had a sloping rear window.

Jun 2, 2018 9:18:45 GMT barbelman said:

That's enough now Taffy - we have heard your views many times in some very long, tedious messages.  As you say you are one man with a table and it is not reasonable to expect anyone to agree with your more radical ideas.
You are also treading a fine line in being rude to people and then trying to disguise it with a weak joke.
Tony

Perhaps a good way to diffuse the situation would be to ADD A POLL to this thread ? (I can't do it, no longer a moderator)

Something along the lines of :

• Q) Should the AEBBA-run Alt Rules 4-Pin have any rule amendments ?
• A) Yes (itemised separately on thread)
• A) No, leave rules completely as per Sudbury Bar Billiards League

This would give those pursuing change some idea as to how popular their ideas may be, and whether or not it would be worth submitting a proposal to the AEBBA AGM.

[JB]

I’ve got a better idea

Why don’t the four of you, (Taffy daveuk Gandalf Tommo) who are most involved in this discussion, arrange a get together and discuss all your ideas. You could then sort out how you want to go forward and what proposals to put forward at the AEBBA AGM.

After the get together you could carry on reminiscing about the past

Jun 2, 2018 12:20:57 GMT JB said:

I’ve got a better idea

I don't think that is a better idea, Jean: We'd probably end up killing each other.

(May be a good idea after all to outsiders reading this thread !)

[daveuk1]

You could just leave it to the 4 pin leagues/counties who have paid their subscriptions and join the AEBBA. oh thats only Suffolk then.

For the last couple of years our four pin entries have been filled with months to spare and I know of people who have already booked their accommodation for next year. We don't need help and we certainly don't need our rules tampered with.

Enough said. End of story.

Jun 2, 2018 14:19:21 GMT daveuk1 said:

You could just leave it to the 4 pin leagues/counties who have paid their subscriptions and join the AEBBA. oh thats only Suffolk then.

Throws up the interesting question of whether or not Wellingborough 4-Pin are per se members of AEBBA.
Wellingborough is a league within the county of Northants and of course Northants are affiliated.

A poll not a good idea, then ?
Or maybe mods would prefer for this discussion to ramble on.